Summoned to Court - Help Needed

[ThreeFifty]

Hi all, I found this website when searching similar cases up and need some help on the options available to me, I'm in a position where I can't particulally afford a solicitor so need all the help I can get

On the 7th August I was travelling from London Bridge to London St Pancras International by the overground, when i arrived at London Bridge all the gates were down and I tapped in using Apple Pay and waked through like normal. When arriving at London St Pancras I tried to tap out but it failed. After this the inspector pulled me to aside and after telling me it was because I wouldn't of tapped in from where I started my journey. I know I 100% did tap in using the Apple Pay as I got the tick symbol on my phone, however I didn't check the gate to see the green light I just walked through presuming it would of worked as I have never had any isssue with this before. I was charged a £20 fine by the inspector but I quickly realised the only bank card I had on me had expired the week before and I didn't have my new card on me (I kept hold of my expired card because I needed it to print off my train tickets to London that morning). After this my apple pay didn't work for the rest of the day on any purchases, It had seemed to have capped to its max spend for the day despite researching I couldn't find info on any cap spend. A week later I recieved a letter telling me GTR were looking to taking it to court but asked for my version of events, I wrote down everything I've previously said and I was happy to pay the £20 fine and apologised for the hasstle caused but they have gone through with proceedings.

The charge was "2) common byelaw offence failing to show upon request by an authorised person a valid ticket. This contravenes railway byelaw 18(2). It is the converse of railway bylaw 18(1). If it was possible to purchase a ticket up to the point of challenge and no ticket has been purchased, the passenger has committed an offence under this byelaw. No offence has been committed if the passenger boarded the train at a station where there were no ticket selling facilities and where it is the agreed practise either to purchase a ticket from a ticket seller on the train or at the final destination."

The train fare would of been a total of £3.50, I obviously pleaded not guilty when not wanting to get a criminal record for something so small which was also by total mistake and was hoping to try an get a settlement if possible.

Does anyone know what I should do from here?, Is it still possible for me to try and get a settlement before court?. I've seen people write in letters to success so was hoping if someone could help me with one that would be fantastic.

 

[Wethebest838]

I've seen so many people fall for that when you have headphones on and you tap when it's open yet it's red on the reader so they don't tap in but they think they did.

Depends on your field of work but a criminal record won't be the end of the world if you're not in government, banking etc. It's mostly seen as embarrassing than anything. If charged under byelaw then it won't show on DBS anyway. I think it shows on enhanced if someone can confirm? been curious to know as well. A criminal record will restrict travel abroad to some places like America where you will need a B2 visa in which you will get interviewed at the embassy then when you arrive in America they will take you to an area in the airport and ask you about it. Trust, my cousin did time for robbery about 25 years ago and was still allowed in. They will prob laugh over a £3.50 conviction. So, trust me, it ain't the end of the world. Just thought I'll throw that bit of info out there as some people don't realize it will restrict access to countries.

@Hadders is a god and has a great template on what to write in your letter to the company like this one - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/til-child-short-ticket-next-steps.224435/post-5386948

 

[ThreeFifty]

I've seen so many people fall for that when you have headphones on and you tap when it's open yet it's red on the reader so they don't tap in but they think they did.

Depends on your field of work but a criminal record won't be the end of the world if you're not in government, banking etc. It's mostly seen as embarrassing than anything. If charged under byelaw then it won't show on DBS anyway. I think it shows on enhanced if someone can confirm? been curious to know as well. A criminal record will restrict travel abroad to some places like America where you will need a B2 visa in which you will get interviewed at the embassy then when you arrive in America they will take you to an area in the airport and ask you about it. Trust, my cousin did time for robbery about 25 years ago and was still allowed in. They will prob laugh over a £3.50 conviction. So, trust me, it ain't the end of the world. Just thought I'll throw that bit of info out there as some people don't realize it will restrict access to countries.

@Hadders is a god and has a great template on what to write in your letter to the company like this one - https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/til-child-short-ticket-next-steps.224435/post-5386948

When I looked up and what checks it'll show up on I got the same information but it wasn't incredibly clear, and I only had a few days to reply to the plead letter and get it sent in so had no choice to plead not guilty with the panic of it possibly ruining future job oppurtinities and the likes of wanting to visit the US.

When viewing this forum I saw @Fawkes Cat write some incredibly helpful drafts so hopefully they could be of help, as I'm not the best at them sort of things.

 

[Wethebest838]

Yeah

When I looked up and what checks it'll show up on I got the same information but it wasn't incredibly clear, and I only had a few days to reply to the plead letter and get it sent in so had no choice to plead not guilty with the panic of it possibly ruining future job oppurtinities and the likes of wanting to visit the US.

When viewing this forum I saw @Fawkes Cat write some incredibly helpful drafts so hopefully they could be of help, as I'm not the best at them sort of things.

The travel is the US, trust me when I say don’t worry. You just get a B2 visa which requires an interview at the embassy. They will certainly grant it. Unless you was a terrorist or hurt people, it’s really the most minor criminal record out there. Unless you racked up thousands in owed tickets which you have not.

I’m sure you can still try for a settlement at this stage.

 

[furlong]

Well you've hit a bit of a tricky area in the law: It's a pity you don't have a lawyer to help. Contrary to what you typed, 18(2) makes no mention of "valid ticket" - that would have to be inferred from the wording which makes it a technical legal matter.

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.
(2) A person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person.

Did the inspector ask you to hand over your ticket for inspection and verification of validity? Did you do so?
Firstly they must ask you to hand it over. Secondly you must then hand it over. If it's not valid, normally they would use 18(1) not 18(2). 18(2) normally covers people who won't let the inspector touch their ticket (e.g. because they might realise it was a fake or they don't want the inspector to stamp it so they can attempt to get away with using it again)

Being stored in a remote database with a reference on an electronic device adds to the interpretive complexity - in what sense is it even possible to "hand over" an "electronic ticket" (whatever that is, included in the definition of "ticket")?

All in all, quite apart from the argument you gave that you believed you had paid, you might consider whether any of these matters of interpretation mean you shouldn't be held in breach of 18(2) but nevertheless you'll offer them a settlement (along the standard lines, fare due plus costs) if they withdraw the charge. Even in court you can arrive early and ask to speak to the prosecutor and try to negotiate a settlement rather than trying your luck.

 

[MikeWh]

On the 7th August I was travelling from London Bridge to London St Pancras International by the overground, when i arrived at London Bridge all the gates were down and I tapped in using Apple Pay and waked through like normal. When arriving at London St Pancras I tried to tap out but it failed. After this the inspector pulled me to aside and after telling me it was because I wouldn't of tapped in from where I started my journey. I know I 100% did tap in using the Apple Pay as I got the tick symbol on my phone, however I didn't check the gate to see the green light I just walked through presuming it would of worked as I have never had any isssue with this before.

I don't know much about how apple pay works, but does it record all transactions on your phone? Have you checked to see whether that touch is there? Also, do you have an account at TfL with your apple pay linked? If you don't it might be worth setting one up because it will then show you all history using that device.

Also, was your apple pay linked to your expired bank card? Do you have to do anything to start using the new one?

 

[Wethebest838]

I don't know much about how apple pay works, but does it record all transactions on your phone? Have you checked to see whether that touch is there? Also, do you have an account at TfL with your apple pay linked? If you don't it might be worth setting one up because it will then show you all history using that device.

Also, was your apple pay linked to your expired bank card? Do you have to do anything to start using the new one?

To confirm, it does show your transactions on Apple Pay and will at times appear as a notification. But, it is delayed and will show up after a day or so from my experience.

 

[island]

Well you've hit a bit of a tricky area in the law: It's a pity you don't have a lawyer to help. Contrary to what you typed, 18(2) makes no mention of "valid ticket" - that would have to be inferred from the wording which makes it a technical legal matter.



Did the inspector ask you to hand over your ticket for inspection and verification of validity? Did you do so?
Firstly they must ask you to hand it over. Secondly you must then hand it over. If it's not valid, normally they would use 18(1) not 18(2). 18(2) normally covers people who won't let the inspector touch their ticket (e.g. because they might realise it was a fake or they don't want the inspector to stamp it so they can attempt to get away with using it again)

Being stored in a remote database with a reference on an electronic device adds to the interpretive complexity - in what sense is it even possible to "hand over" an "electronic ticket" (whatever that is, included in the definition of "ticket")?

All in all, quite apart from the argument you gave that you believed you had paid, you might consider whether any of these matters of interpretation mean you shouldn't be held in breach of 18(2) but nevertheless you'll offer them a settlement (along the standard lines, fare due plus costs) if they withdraw the charge. Even in court you can arrive early and ask to speak to the prosecutor and try to negotiate a settlement rather than trying your luck.

This is broadly what I was about to write.

However, from the OP’s description, it is not clear that any “ticket” was in fact “handed over”, which may complicate things.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

No expert but surely the company cannot issue you an penalty fare as well as reporting you for a byelaw offence? What paper work did they give you? Was it a long printed receipt that said penalty fare with a price of £20 on it or did it say byelaw report?

 

[island]

No expert but surely the company cannot issue you an penalty fare as well as reporting you for a byelaw offence? What paper work did they give you? Was it a long printed receipt that said penalty fare with a price of £20 on it or did it say byelaw report?

From my reading of the OP, the £20 penalty fare was initially offered but the OP seemingly had no means of paying it, so it was withdrawn.

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

I’m

From my reading of the OP, the £20 penalty fare was initially offered but the OP seemingly had no means of paying it, so it was withdrawn.

makes sense

 

[ThreeFifty]

I don't know much about how apple pay works, but does it record all transactions on your phone? Have you checked to see whether that touch is there? Also, do you have an account at TfL with your apple pay linked? If you don't it might be worth setting one up because it will then show you all history using that device.

Also, was your apple pay linked to your expired bank card? Do you have to do anything to start using the new one?

Usually transactions come up straight away for normal payments, but with contactless on tubes etc the payments taken will come through the next day usually when its calculated how much money you'll be charged

I'll set up a Tfl account and have a look if I can see past transactions

You have to add the new card to the Apple Pay which I had done and had been using all day, I just didn't have the new card on me

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==

Well you've hit a bit of a tricky area in the law: It's a pity you don't have a lawyer to help. Contrary to what you typed, 18(2) makes no mention of "valid ticket" - that would have to be inferred from the wording which makes it a technical legal matter.



Did the inspector ask you to hand over your ticket for inspection and verification of validity? Did you do so?
Firstly they must ask you to hand it over. Secondly you must then hand it over. If it's not valid, normally they would use 18(1) not 18(2). 18(2) normally covers people who won't let the inspector touch their ticket (e.g. because they might realise it was a fake or they don't want the inspector to stamp it so they can attempt to get away with using it again)

Being stored in a remote database with a reference on an electronic device adds to the interpretive complexity - in what sense is it even possible to "hand over" an "electronic ticket" (whatever that is, included in the definition of "ticket")?

All in all, quite apart from the argument you gave that you believed you had paid, you might consider whether any of these matters of interpretation mean you shouldn't be held in breach of 18(2) but nevertheless you'll offer them a settlement (along the standard lines, fare due plus costs) if they withdraw the charge. Even in court you can arrive early and ask to speak to the prosecutor and try to negotiate a settlement rather than trying your luck.

I told them that I was using contactless on my apple pay and he just said that it would of been because I didn't tap in on the starting journey and wrote up the fine, I thought they might of had of some way of checking on a system if I had actually tapped in or not but seems they didn't because he just wrote up the fine straight away.

I was thinking about writing a letter asking them for a settlement but don't even know where to start in the letter itself, obviously don't want to end up messing up any chances of a settlement writing a poorly worded one.

 

[furlong]

Is there a copy of a witness statement in the court paperwork and does it explicitly say you were asked to "hand over" your ticket? A prosecution under 18(2) hinges on that question being asked of you. (Using alternative words should not matter if they had the same meaning, but I think any well-trained inspector would have used the precise words in the byelaw.)

 

[ThreeFifty]

Is there a copy of a witness statement in the court paperwork and does it explicitly say you were asked to "hand over" your ticket? A prosecution under 18(2) hinges on that question being asked of you. (Using alternative words should not matter if they had the same meaning, but I think any well-trained inspector would have used the precise words in the byelaw.)

I've had a look and there was a question asking if I had a valid ticket, I answered saying yes because I used contactless, still not realising at the time that there was an issue with it

But none of the questions were asking me to hand over a valid ticket

 

[Haywain]

I'll set up a Tfl account and have a look if I can see past transactions

I recently added a card to my TfL account, and a few days later can see the transactions that took place before it was added. The card had been used through Google Pay.

 

[furlong]

Well you can read 18(2) for yourself, as we quoted it above. There is also a relevant Court of Appeal case https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/1305.html which is a bit complicated to understand but here is one part of it that might have some relevance:

"A. Can a person be guilty of an offence under Byelaw 18 (2) and 24 of the Railway Byelaws if they did not hand over their ticket for inspection and verification of validity and were not asked to do so by an authorised person but where the ticket was found to be invalid because it was an Oyster card with insufficient funds on it?
...
in respect of question A: no

 

[ThreeFifty]

I recently added a card to my TfL account, and a few days later can see the transactions that took place before it was added. The card had been used through Google Pay.

I've just set it up and the only payment for that day was a journey I had made earlier (St Pancras International to Westcombe Park) which was £3. So actually cheaper than the price they claimed from London Bridge to St Pancras

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==

Well you can read 18(2) for yourself, as we quoted it above. There is also a relevant Court of Appeal case https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2012/1305.html which is a bit complicated to understand but here is one part of it that might have some relevance:

very interesting, of course feeling incredibly anxious about the case I'm wanting to try and get an out of court settlement by writing a letter in (as well as not being able to afford to fork out for a solicitor this close to christmas)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==




== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==

Ive wrote a draft to send to the prosecution for an attempt of a settlement and would like some feedback on said letter on what could be improved


To whom it may concern,

Ref (XXXXXXX)

I am writing to you about an ongoing prosecution for my actions on the 7th of August 2021.

I was travelling from London Bridge to London St Pancras where I failed to hand over a ticket for inspection when asked to do so by an authorised person. I was unable to do so due to a problem with my contactless when tapping in through the open barriers at London Bridge, I now realise I should have taken more care to notice that it had failed to scan in.

I understand that fare evasion costs the railway millions of pounds a year and I assume that investigating cases like my situation is also costly in staff time. I'm extremely sorry and would like to settle this matter out of court. I would like to offer to pay the full amount due for my travel and any cost to you in dealing with my case.

I assure you that I will take extra care to ensure that a situation like this will never happen again.

Yours faithfully,

XXXX

 

[WesternLancer]

I've just set it up and the only payment for that day was a journey I had made earlier (St Pancras International to Westcombe Park) which was £3. So actually cheaper than the price they claimed from London Bridge to St Pancras

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==



very interesting, of course feeling incredibly anxious about the case I'm wanting to try and get an out of court settlement by writing a letter in (as well as not being able to afford to fork out for a solicitor this close to christmas)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==




== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Nov 2021 ==

Ive wrote a draft to send to the prosecution for an attempt of a settlement and would like some feedback on said letter on what could be improved


To whom it may concern,

Ref (XXXXXXX)

I am writing to you about an ongoing prosecution for my actions on the 7th of August 2021.

I was travelling from London Bridge to London St Pancras where I failed to hand over a ticket for inspection when asked to do so by an authorised person. I was unable to do so due to a problem with my contactless when tapping in through the open barriers at London Bridge, I now realise I should have taken more care to notice that it had failed to scan in.

I understand that fare evasion costs the railway millions of pounds a year and I assume that investigating cases like my situation is also costly in staff time. I'm extremely sorry and would like to settle this matter out of court. I would like to offer to pay the full amount due for my travel and any cost to you in dealing with my case.

I assure you that I will take extra care to ensure that a situation like this will never happen again.

Yours faithfully,

XXXX

I would change 'millions of pounds' to 'substantial sums'
and
add more overtly that you were not deliberately evading a fare, but that you attempted to pay but made an error in not checking the payment had succeeded. eg add along lines of:
'I hope you can see that I had not intention to evade paying my fare, but made an error in failing to check that payment had not been correctly made when I used my chosen contactless payment method. I am sorry about this and have learned from this situation'