Masks again

[bramling]

I agree it is disgusting. I am sick of the lies, threats, false promises and hypocrisy. The chance of me voting for any of the main political parties for the foreseeable future is zero, and that may well turn into never

Same here. The trouble is, that is a pretty worrying position when lots of people feel politically homeless.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

I'm... surprised. I'm very surprised that I'm seeing such a level of "not doing it" stance on here, of all places. I caught Covid at the start of the year, and it sucked. And one of my neighbours died from it.

Masks, when fitted correctly and adhered to by enough people, work. That's why, despite being double jabbed, despite having caught it previously, I still make the effort of the 5-10 seconds required to hook a snug-fitted covering to my face before going into a badly-ventilated store, or a busy train. Because people have died from this - people I care about, and the least I can do for their memory is to put up with a mild inconvenience if it saves others.

It's not just about protecting you - just like the vaccines. If you catch it and survive? Fine. If you pass it to someone else and they die? That's on you. If you have to be hospitalised because you didn't take the necessary preventative measures, taking a bed away from someone else? That's on you.

And those of you who are planning to fake exemptions? Well, a close family friend is an experienced GP and they've debunked the "asthma makes you exempt" claim, because asthma actually makes you one of the "clinically vulnerable" - so if you can't mask up, you should actually be shielding and staying at home.

I'm sorry, but I'm just a bit disappointed. I genuinely thought better of people. Do I like wearing a face covering? Well, no. Not really. But this is the world we live in now. So please stop making excuses, stop saying "Well the PM doesn't bother so why should I?" and just be a better example.

This ‘masks work’ argument is not backed by any evidence.
I have travelled to work on public transport throughout the entire pandemic. Each journey has four components: bus, train, tube, Overground, the return journey has the same components in reverse.
For the sake of argument, I’ll use a very low estimate of how many strangers I’ve encountered in the last 86 weeks. Based on just 3 strangers being near me on each component of my journeys (and it’s been at least 5 times that in recent months) I have had interactions with 8 x 3 x 5days x 86weeks strangers.

At least 10,320 interactions and I haven’t caught Covid.
None of my family members have had it either, despite being in each other’s homes.

I won’t be wearing a mask. It’s virtue-signalling nonsense, not backed by scientific evidence.

 

[Yew]

Same here. The trouble is, that is a pretty worrying position when lots of people feel politically homeless.

It's a tough time to be a right wing authoritarian woke communist libertarian...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

This ‘masks work’ argument is not backed by any evidence.
I have travelled to work on public transport throughout the entire pandemic. Each journey has four components: bus, train, tube, Overground, the return journey has the same components in reverse.
For the sake of argument, I’ll use a very low estimate of how many strangers I’ve encountered in the last 86 weeks. Based on just 3 strangers being near me on each component of my journeys (and it’s been at least 5 times that in recent months) I have had interactions with 8 x 3 x 5days x 86weeks strangers.

At least 10,320 interactions and I haven’t caught Covid.
None of my family members have had it either, despite being in each other’s homes.

I won’t be wearing a mask. It’s virtue-signalling nonsense, not backed by scientific evidence.

Even if masks work, it's not like they make any difference to 'source control' if the mask is on the face of someone who isn't infected.

 

[Sebastian O]

This does look a lot more like 'proper science' rather than dubious meta-analyses. Here is a link to the full paper:

https://www.poverty-action.org/site...ions/Mask_Second_Stage_Paper_20211108.pdf.pdf

Do you understand the concept of meta analysis?

 

[DustyBin]

This does look a lot more like 'proper science' rather than dubious meta-analyses. Here is a link to the full paper:

https://www.poverty-action.org/site...ions/Mask_Second_Stage_Paper_20211108.pdf.pdf

So they found a possible effectiveness of less than 1% (note “possible”).

Why are so many people in denial over this, MASKS DON’T WORK.

 

[yorksrob]

Do you understand the concept of meta analysis?

It's what you do when you have to give a reading to the gas board.

 

[DustyBin]

Do you understand the concept of meta analysis?

Yes. Meanwhile, back in the real world……

 

[Ediswan]

Do you understand the concept of meta analysis?

Yes.

Edit: To clarify, I am not suggesting that meta analysis is inherently not 'proper science'. Done properly, it is. Rather, that there are a lot of dubious meta analysis about.

 

[Yew]

Do you understand the concept of meta analysis?

Do you understand the concept of bias in studies. I think there was a meta-analysis from the royal society that said "despite the lack of evidence, we still recommend masks". Unfortunately a lot of these meta analyses are made by scared people who are desperate to find anything that might make the virus go away; but that isn't a realistic scenario at all.

 

[John Luxton]

Same here. The trouble is, that is a pretty worrying position when lots of people feel politically homeless.

Those rendered politically homeless need to look at Reform UK.

Yes I know they probably stand as much chance of winning a seat as we do of winning the National Lottery jackpot - but even a swing to them will set the Conservative Party alarm bells, especially if they let Labour in.

The forthcoming by-election results will be very interesting.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Why are you so keen for others to wear flimsy masks?

The idea that people should be made to wear flimsy masks ostensibly to protect others is nonsensical.

I've noticed you using this word "flimsy" a few times. If you're referring to those blue bibs that I see some people wear, then they're OK at catching potentially contagious droplets of spit, phlegm, etc. that may pass an infection onto someone else. They can reduce spray, but of course, they're not going to be as effective at filtering aerosolised particles as other coverings. Should there perhaps be a "standard" agreed on by the powers that be if they are to be effective to a certain level?

There are a number of papers and studies looking at the use and effectiveness of face coverings (not necessarily N95-rated ones) for controlling and limiting the spread of disease. If there was sufficient evidence to the contrary, then like others, I may feel sceptical about wearing them. But today and come Tuesday, if the situation I'm in calls for wearing a "flimsy" piece of cloth (I'm very selective about the ones I wear, actually - blue surgical masks aren't really my thing) then that's what I'll be doing.

I really don't want to have a major falling-out with people here, so I'm going to apologise if I've caused any upset - you may have noticed that this is a particular... topic... that I have strong feelings about, as many others seem to as well. I can only ask for your forgiveness if we've landed on opposite sites. And, to use a fairly cliché phrase again, "On this matter, my friends, I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree."

 

[Amstel]

I am very sad to read a lot of the comments on here.
Unfortunately my wife is on immunosuppressant drugs; this is probably the worst time in history to be on them.
She had to have 3 vaccinations even before she had her booster.
It is sad that we live in a society where so many people do not care if she and others like her may die as a result of small inconveniences like putting a mask on.

 

[Ediswan]

So they found a possible effectiveness of less than 1% (note “possible”).

Where does it say that in the text ? I looked for all references to "possible/possibly" and none match. The only mention of "1%" is the SD of filtration efficiency of surgical masks.

 

[alex397]

On the contrary, you are incorrect.

No, you think I’m incorrect. That is your opinion, it is not fact. There’s a difference.

I'd you go on about hating our culture, why continue to love here?

Where has anyone ‘gone on’ about hating our culture? Berliner was complaining about a certain aspect of our culture. Maybe re-read what he said?

Fighting to be more European is hardly the same as fighting to be more like Japanese society.

I’m not sure you’re seeing my point. You were suggesting to Berliner to move to another country if he doesn’t like one aspect of our culture. Just like some Brexiteers tell Remainers to move to the EU if they don’t like the UK decision.

This is yet another false equivalence from the pro-mask camp.

In your opinion.

And you think Japanese culture and intolerance and authoritarianism are improvements? I'd be prepared to fight against that in whatever means are necessary.

I never said I did. I was merely pointing out that telling someone to move to another country because they don’t like a certain aspect of the UK is a bit silly.

And if you want to fight for something, rather than ‘moving abroad if you don’t like it’, then surely you’ll agree that saying the same thing to Berliner was possibly wrong, and really not helpful to a healthy debate.

Again a false equivalence.

In your opinion. In my opinion, I don’t think so.

 

[John Luxton]

It is sad that we live in a society where so many people do not care if she and others like her may die as a result of small inconveniences like putting a mask on.

It is not nice to suggest people do not care. I would not want anyone to come to any harm and I think that goes for anyone who is against restrictions.

But it is clear that people must modify their behaviours to their OWN particular situation.

We can't remove the freedom to enjoy normality for the minority of those who unfortunately can't.

The strategy adopted by the Government's Behavioural Insights Team to gain compliance by telling everyone they are responsible for others. It was a deliberate strategy.

Whilst quite a few believed them, as you obviously do, many of us saw through this.

It really is much safer out there than you believe.

 

[TheSel]

I am very sad to read a lot of the comments on here.
Unfortunately my wife is on immunosuppressant drugs; this is probably the worst time in history to be on them.
She had to have 3 vaccinations even before she had her booster.
It is sad that we live in a society where so many people do not care if she and others like her may die as a result of small inconveniences like putting a mask on.

I, for one, am very sorry to read that your wife is in ill health.

I'm guessing that you must be wearing your mask at all times, then? She must be very thankful that she is not married to someone who is exempt from the mask-wearing directive.

 

[takno]

I've noticed you using this word "flimsy" a few times. If you're referring to those blue bibs that I see some people wear, then they're OK at catching potentially contagious droplets of spit, phlegm, etc. that may pass an infection onto someone else. They can reduce spray, but of course, they're not going to be as effective at filtering aerosolised particles as other coverings. Should there perhaps be a "standard" agreed on by the powers that be if they are to be effective to a certain level?

There are a number of papers and studies looking at the use and effectiveness of face coverings (not necessarily N95-rated ones) for controlling and limiting the spread of disease. If there was sufficient evidence to the contrary, then like others, I may feel sceptical about wearing them. But today and come Tuesday, if the situation I'm in calls for wearing a "flimsy" piece of cloth (I'm very selective about the ones I wear, actually - blue surgical masks aren't really my thing) then that's what I'll be doing.

I really don't want to have a major falling-out with people here, so I'm going to apologise if I've caused any upset - you may have noticed that this is a particular... topic... that I have strong feelings about, as many others seem to as well. I can only ask for your forgiveness if we've landed on opposite sites. And, to use a fairly cliché phrase again, "On this matter, my friends, I'm afraid we're just going to have to agree to disagree."

The Bangladesh study mentioned above tested specially-made cloth masks against surgical masks, as well as testing against nothing at all. While the results for the surgical masks were themselves extremely unspectacular, even the study's authors had to concede that the measurable benefits from the cloth masks were absolutely 0.

You must continue to do what you must of course. It's important to bear in mind that very few people from either side are doing or saying what they are because they don't care or want people to suffer. It would be an interesting academic debate if it hadn't been weaponised by one side with the assumption of moral superiority and legal force.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

This ‘masks work’ argument is not backed by any evidence.

Well there are as many papers that show mask wearing does have an effect as there are that say it doesn't so we are in a space where consensus hasn't been agreed amongst both scientists and medical professionals so you end up being led by which ever camp a countries scientific experts want to sit in. However, after 18mths there is a good body of evidence to look at individual countries approach and determine whether any specific course of action has proven better than others. So what do find depends on when you compare at times countries or areas look as though there approach has worked only for it to be subsequently undone later on so my observation is we haven't really found a means to manage its spread but only to moderate it through the use of vaccines. So we end up with oh we need to be seen to be doing something approach to keep opposition politicians and the likes of indies SAGE et all quiet and so we get masks as they are the least disruptive measure to peoples daily lives which surely what we all want here. In reality TfL hasn't been able to do a darn thing about enforcement so it will be same on national rail and in shops and it will be about peoples personal preferences.

 

[adc82140]

I come across many vulnerable people in my line of work. Some of them have limited time on this planet. Many have said they don't want to be "protected", and they'd rather live their lives free of being told what to do. In the words of one "either my disease it Covid is going to get me in the near future. I'd much rather it was Covid, so I could at least say I'd enjoyed my closing years"

 

[Richard Scott]

I am very sad to read a lot of the comments on here.
Unfortunately my wife is on immunosuppressant drugs; this is probably the worst time in history to be on them.
She had to have 3 vaccinations even before she had her booster.
It is sad that we live in a society where so many people do not care if she and others like her may die as a result of small inconveniences like putting a mask on.

No one wants to make anyone ill but the reality is that standard masks don't work and it would be very wrong to pretend that they do and lull you and your wife into a false sense of security. Far better she gers an effective FFP3 mask to protect herself than relying on a lie to do so, don't you think?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I am very sad to read a lot of the comments on here.
Unfortunately my wife is on immunosuppressant drugs; this is probably the worst time in history to be on them.
She had to have 3 vaccinations even before she had her booster.
It is sad that we live in a society where so many people do not care if she and others like her may die as a result of small inconveniences like putting a mask on.

I think that’s a stretch. Many of the people here will have lost livelihoods, jobs, time with children (etc) whilst attempting to do the right thing. Your situation is sad and I am sorry you are suffering it, but you do not have a right to then tar others.

You need to focus on yourself and your wife, and therefore you should consider your own mitigations. Other people not requiring to mitigate does not make them “uncaring”, it makes them ready to live their lives. It is not their fault that you have found yourself in the position you are in even after 21 months and countless lockdowns. People have given a lot for you and your wife.

 

[43066]

I am very sad to read a lot of the comments on here.
Unfortunately my wife is on immunosuppressant drugs; this is probably the worst time in history to be on them.
She had to have 3 vaccinations even before she had her booster.
It is sad that we live in a society where so many people do not care if she and others like her may die as a result of small inconveniences like putting a mask on.

It’s unfortunate that she’s living through a pandemic where there’s nothing anyone can do to prevent her catching an endemic virus that spreads like the common cold. People observing rituals such as mask wearing won’t reduce that risk - scapegoating those who can’t/won’t might make you feel better, but will not change that analysis.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I am very sad to read a lot of the comments on here.
Unfortunately my wife is on immunosuppressant drugs; this is probably the worst time in history to be on them.
She had to have 3 vaccinations even before she had her booster.
It is sad that we live in a society where so many people do not care if she and others like her may die as a result of small inconveniences like putting a mask on.

Its even sadder that we allow further harmful restrictions that have adverse effects on mental health.

Im sorry about your wife, but how long do you propose we carry this on? One more year? Five? Ten? We have to live with Covid at some point and the time has come when those who feel vulnerable have to put themselves into self imposed lockdown if they don’t feel comfortable mixing with others, we can’t keep putting life on hold.

 

[Freightmaster]

I don't think you can take this forum section as representative of the rail community as a whole, or even of RailUK. Its not, in my experience representative of those I ecounter in my daily liffe.

This section of the forum is populated almost exclusively by those who take the view that virtually all public health measure against COVID do more harm than good, and are unecessary, and who stridently assert that others are not entitled to their opinion. Anyone who dares to express a contrary opinion can expect to be insulted, told to emigrate, accused of being a work-shy couch potato who enjoys the personal benefits of lockdowns, or a callous authoritarian. No wonder everyone has given up and left.

And yet here you are...




MARK

 

[MikeWM]

A quick question for those who genuinely think there is evidence that 'masks work' in terms of stopping a virus spreading.

*At this point*, *why* are we trying to stop the spread of a respiratory virus that everyone will encounter at some time or other? This now appears to has become 'something we have to try to do, whether possible, sensible, logical or desireable'. Do you think we should do it forever?

 

[Freightmaster]

If one person wearing a (correctly fitted) mask reduces airborne transmission by 50%, and you have two people wearing masks (a potential transmitter and a potential recipient), 50% x 50% results in an approximate reduction in transmission by about 75%. I'm definitely oversimplifying things bit here...

Even if the 50% figure you quoted was true (it's actually more like 5% in reality),
99% of the public are wearing face coverings, not face masks, which have virtually
no effect whatsoever on transmission of Covid virus particles.




MARK

 

[DustyBin]

Where does it say that in the text ? I looked for all references to "possible/possibly" and none match. The only mention of "1%" is the SD of filtration efficiency of surgical masks.

It was a quick bit of mental arithmetic on my behalf, sorry I should have said. The “possible” is also my own conclusion as I expect the stated effectiveness (being so negligible) is within the margin of error. Are you reading it differently?

 

[Ediswan]

The Bangladesh study mentioned above tested specially-made cloth masks against surgical masks, as well as testing against nothing at all. While the results for the surgical masks were themselves extremely unspectacular, even the study's authors had to concede that the measurable benefits from the cloth masks were absolutely 0.

As this thread only has a few hours to live, I will quote from page 10 of the paper:

We find clear evidence that surgical masks lead to a relative reduction in symptomatic seroprevalence of 11.1% (aPR = 0.89 [0.78,1.00]; control prevalence = 0.81%; treatment prevalence = 0.72%). Although the point estimates for cloth masks suggests that they reduce risk, the confidence limits include both an effect size similar to surgical masks and no effect at all. (aPR = 0.94 [0.78,1.10]; control: 0.67%; treatment: 0.61%).

This paper cannot be used to claim that cloth masks are effective. They do appear to be claiming that surgical masks led to an 11% reduction in symptomatic seroprevalance. The description of both types in on page 27.

Note: My current belief is that the effectiveness of face coverings, as worn by the general public, is somewhere between negligible and zero. But I am prepared to change my mind, if compelling evidence is presented.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Nov 2021 ==

It was a quick bit of mental arithmetic on my behalf, sorry I should have said. The “possible” is also my own conclusion as I expect the stated effectiveness (being so negligible) is within the margin of error. Are you reading it differently?

Thanks. It looks like I was typing #448 as you wrote this. Hopefully that clarifies how I read the results.

 

[Bikeman78]

Re-reading the newspaper headlines from last year. It was the same old. Do this to save Christmas. And we didn’t get one.

Ergo, they’re already planning to cancel Christmas. And yet vaccines don’t work against the variant, but you need a booster vaccine. This stuff is getting tedious, pathetic, and is very transparent.

Wearing a mask and compliance is making this go on.

Yes the whole "make sure you get your booster even though it might be useless" narrative is hilarious. If the news stopped banging on about Covid, most people would cease to care within weeks. Judging by the packed city centres on Friday and Saturday nights, or the queues to get into city centre car parks, a lot of people already don't care. We've all had our vaccines, or decided that we don't want them, so it doesn't really get better than this.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

I do also want to add as well, because this is definitely an underlying topic theme, that I am generally against authoritarianism. There are many attacks on our civil liberties - a lot of them going unchallenged and unseen and this is something I am wholly against.

So I really do understand if people's reluctance is down to being "told" to do it rather than just being asked nicely.

The last 18 months really has changed things in our world. Some things for the better, and some things for the worse. One of the things that definitely falls into the latter is what we're seeing with governments around the world tightening the screws "for the greater good", seeing that people are allowing it, and then being tempted to continue to do so during peacetime or times outside of crisis. On this I'm definitely with you.