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Operation Rampdown - UK Covid-19 exit strategy

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bramling

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Interesting timing given recent stories about MPs doing this and that ....

I hope that this is what happens in reality as I am sure many want to see an end to the turmoil that this has caused at the expense of treatment of other diseases and financial / emotional impacts of lockdowns and restrictions.

The story so far:
Feb / March 2020: herd immunity
March 2020 12 weeks to bend the curve
May 2020: world beating test and trace
June 2020: face masks to stop the spread
June 2021: local tier restrictions
November 2020: circuit breaker to save Christmas
December 2020: 5 days, sorry 1 day, sorry 0 days of Christmas
January 2021: safe for schools to go back, oh wait no its not, followed by lockdown
February 2021: road map out of lockdown announced
Spring 2021: get double vaccinated to get out of covid
April 2021: schools no longer need face masks
June 2021: final stage of road map delayed
July 2021: if final stage of lockdown is released then we will have 100K cases per day by August
July 2021: final stage of lockdown released (for now)
Summer 2021: shortages due to "pingdemic"
September 2021: End of furlough, end of Universal credit uplift and national insurance increases to pay for NHS backlog and social care
Autumn 2021: get a booster to save Christmas

Many people will have had their 2nd vaccine by June 2021 so they will be offered boosters at the 6 month mark
However many people will not have had their second vaccine until September / October so not sure how these people will be able to save Christmas by a booster if its not due till March / April 2022 - unless they mean Christmas 2022.

When put like that, it really is a damning mess. The only thing we can really conclude is this saga has some way to run, and we can probably bet vaccine passports will be the winter theme.

If three vaccines are now so vital, how would any passport system handle people who have only just had their second?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Strictly speaking correct; but if England gets rid of test and trace the government does not have to provide equivalent funding to the devolved authorities (the Barnett formula). If they wanted to continue test and trace the devolved authorities would have to fund it from existing budgets. Also anybody who thought they might be told to isolate would relocate to England for 10 days.

Is there any mechanism for the government to overrule the devolved institutions and declare that the exit plan is UK (or at least GB) wide? Would this be politically viable or simply too incendiary?

With Scotland and Wales consistently doing worse than England, does that give Boris a lever to declare it’s time for them to drop the act?
 
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Bikeman78

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Interesting timing given recent stories about MPs doing this and that ....

I hope that this is what happens in reality as I am sure many want to see an end to the turmoil that this has caused at the expense of treatment of other diseases and financial / emotional impacts of lockdowns and restrictions.

The story so far:
Feb / March 2020: herd immunity
March 2020 12 weeks to bend the curve
May 2020: world beating test and trace
June 2020: face masks to stop the spread
June 2021: local tier restrictions
November 2020: circuit breaker to save Christmas
December 2020: 5 days, sorry 1 day, sorry 0 days of Christmas
January 2021: safe for schools to go back, oh wait no its not, followed by lockdown
February 2021: road map out of lockdown announced
Spring 2021: get double vaccinated to get out of covid
April 2021: schools no longer need face masks
June 2021: final stage of road map delayed
July 2021: if final stage of lockdown is released then we will have 100K cases per day by August
July 2021: final stage of lockdown released (for now)
Summer 2021: shortages due to "pingdemic"
September 2021: End of furlough, end of Universal credit uplift and national insurance increases to pay for NHS backlog and social care
Autumn 2021: get a booster to save Christmas

Many people will have had their 2nd vaccine by June 2021 so they will be offered boosters at the 6 month mark
However many people will not have had their second vaccine until September / October so not sure how these people will be able to save Christmas by a booster if its not due till March / April 2022 - unless they mean Christmas 2022.
All the unvaccinated NHS staff are going to struggle to get three shots by April next year.
 

Cdd89

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Strictly speaking correct; but if England gets rid of test and trace the government does not have to provide equivalent funding to the devolved authorities (the Barnett formula)
True — but face masks and many business restrictions don’t cost the devolved governments a penny.
 

Yew

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Can we have some numbers on Scotland doing consistently worse than England?
Look at the incidence rates, they've been pretty consistently higher than in england over the last few months.
 

Cdd89

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Can we have some numbers on Scotland doing consistently worse than England?
By what percentage do you estimate masks and vaccine passports are reducing the incidence? You should then increase the Scottish numbers by that percentage for a fair comparison.
 

P Binnersley

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By what percentage do you estimate masks and vaccine passports are reducing the incidence? You should then increase the Scottish numbers by that percentage for a fair comparison.

It is very difficult to calculate the effectiveness or masks as other factors like school holidays seem to have a much bigger effect. There are also things like vaccination rate and prior infection rate to take into consideration.

Currently the Orkneys are 656 cases/100,000 and the Shetlands 262, yet they are similar areas living under the same rules.
Both are higher than Glasgow (229). You need to be able explain this level of variation before you can start deciding how effective masks etc. are.
 

haggishunter

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It is very difficult to calculate the effectiveness or masks as other factors like school holidays seem to have a much bigger effect. There are also things like vaccination rate and prior infection rate to take into consideration.

Currently the Orkneys are 656 cases/100,000 and the Shetlands 262, yet they are similar areas living under the same rules.
Both are higher than Glasgow (229). You need to be able explain this level of variation before you can start deciding how effective masks etc. are.

Here's the three island local authorities over the past 90 days (plus Highland as the adjacent mainland authority) from Travelling Tabby.

Na h-Eileanan Siar which has the highest proportion of Gaelic speakers of all the Scottish local authorities went off on one during the second half of October with covid prevalence peaking at 630 cases per 100k early November. An Comunn Gàidhealach's Royal National Mod took place in Inverness from the 8th to the 16th October and it's not known as the whisky olympics for nothing... So there is a clear correlation with the spike in the Western Isles and arguably a clear indication that late night alcohol fueled indoor socialising is a particularly productive environment for coronaviruses!

There's not a such a clear link to anything for Orkney, but remaining restrictions on ferry capacity were lifted before the October school holidays, so more outward and inward travel will have occurred and Orkney is simply much more accessible than Shetland with a 90min ferry crossing with Northlink (60 minutes on the Pentland Ferries route) vs a 13 hour crossing with Northlink between Aberdeen and Lerwick for Shetland.

There is also some overlap with the discussion on the Scottish Vaccine passport thread - the argument that you can't prevent cases, only delay them. Indeed, low previous covid prevalence is likely a factor in the current high island rates vs lower Glasgow rates, but by delaying those infections the peak is coming in a highly vaccinated population with better knowledge of how to treat those who do end up in hospital despite being vaccinated.

It's also worth pointing out that the total population of these 3 island authorities is low, so a relatively small number of cases can cause big swings in the prevalence per 100k, this has been particularly noticeable throughout the panedemic with the tiny mainland council of Clackmannanshire .
 

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initiation

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Back on Rampdown: The biggest thing that will make an impact on returning to normality is the abandoning of mass free testing.

Many aspects hinge on the testing:
  • 'scary' case numbers for the media
  • activists who then push for more restrictions
  • widespread requirements to self-isolate
  • the general societal mindset of treating people as walking biohazards
  • the number of 'with covid' deaths

The general public are not going to be paying to do 1 million tests per day - people don't like paying 5p for a plastic bag let alone how many pounds for a regular test.
 

kristiang85

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Back on Rampdown: The biggest thing that will make an impact on returning to normality is the abandoning of mass free testing.

Many aspects hinge on the testing:
  • 'scary' case numbers for the media
  • activists who then push for more restrictions
  • widespread requirements to self-isolate
  • the general societal mindset of treating people as walking biohazards
  • the number of 'with covid' deaths

The general public are not going to be paying to do 1 million tests per day - people don't like paying 5p for a plastic bag let alone how many pounds for a regular test.

Yep, this is the crux of it. Get rid of easily available free testing, and half of 'rampdown' will solve itself.
 

greyman42

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No mention of there withdrawing Vaccine passports from what I read.
Well we cannot withdraw what has not been introduced.
If it was mentioned then some people would jump on the band wagon and say it is proof that they are going to be introduced soon.
 

NorthKent1989

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Well we cannot withdraw what has not been introduced.
If it was mentioned then some people would jump on the band wagon and say it is proof that they are going to be introduced soon.

They’ve been introduced in Wales, Scotland and now Northern Ireland and I would hope that they would be withdrawn from there as they’re utterly useless and pointless and serve no purpose.
 

Yew

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They’ve been introduced in Wales, Scotland and now Northern Ireland and I would hope that they would be withdrawn from there as they’re utterly useless and pointless and serve no purpose.
I don't disagree, but despite being from the UK government, ramp down is an England-only thing.
 

westv

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So we can now expect the infection rates for England to deviate quite a lot compared to the rest of the UK?
 

kristiang85

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Well in Scotland and Wales it seems the cases are mostly going up in the young, and at the same time pubs/bars are reporting much less footfall since they came in. So I hypothesise that young people are doing a lot more socialising at home, this less ventilation/distancing/sanitisation than they would in a pub. Ergo, the passports are actively encouraging spreader behaviour.
 

initiation

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Well in Scotland and Wales it seems the cases are mostly going up in the young, and at the same time pubs/bars are reporting much less footfall since they came in. So I hypothesise that young people are doing a lot more socialising at home, this less ventilation/distancing/sanitisation than they would in a pub. Ergo, the passports are acti vely encouraging spreader behaviour.
Remember when restrictions 'dont work' the only logical solution is to impose more restrictions...
 

westv

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As in take a different, better course. Well I'm assuming that's the case.
They wouldn't waste time and energy with these passports otherwise would they..... would they?? :rolleyes:
 

Bikeman78

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Well in Scotland and Wales it seems the cases are mostly going up in the young, and at the same time pubs/bars are reporting much less footfall since they came in. So I hypothesise that young people are doing a lot more socialising at home, this less ventilation/distancing/sanitisation than they would in a pub. Ergo, the passports are actively encouraging spreader behaviour.
I mentioned this in another thread. Wouldn't it be wonderfully ironic if the passports were making the problem worse. One of the homes near me had a few house parties during lockdownearlierthis year. They were full on, disco lights, loud music etc. Funnily enough they stopped when pubs and clubs opened up.
 

brad465

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I mentioned this in another thread. Wouldn't it be wonderfully ironic if the passports were making the problem worse. One of the homes near me had a few house parties during lockdown earlier this year. They were full on, disco lights, loud music etc. Funnily enough they stopped when pubs and clubs opened up.
Certain forms of prohibition seem to cause more harm than good: US alcohol prohibition in the 1920s led to more underground brewing, which risked being more harmful than conventional beverages and defeated the purpose of the ban. I wouldn't be surprised if cannabis prohibition today is causing lots of harm in regard to wasting police resources, having a knock-on effect in crime increasing through gang culture around drugs, and illegal substances are more likely to be harmful than substances that are legal and in turn regulated. In relation to covid restrictions, banning/restricting access to certain activities seems to be causing more "underground" activity, we saw this plenty with illegal raves last year, and with house parties as well, where covid would still spread as much as if hospitality venues were open.

I do think many in this country, especially in SAGE and the Government, need to understand there is a huge difference between what's desirable and what's actually realistically achievable. If Operation Rampdown goes ahead, I would consider this an acceptance that controlling covid's spread with non-clinical interventions is unrealistic.
 

Eyersey468

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It would be nice to see Operation Rampdown go ahead but given the number of u turns this government has done I am at the stage I believe things when they happen.
 

greyman42

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It would be nice to see Operation Rampdown go ahead but given the number of u turns this government has done I am at the stage I believe things when they happen.
What do you think would cause the government to do a u turn on Operation Rampdown?
 

greyman42

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Boris has a brainwave whilst visiting Peppa Pig World?

Unfortunately with BJ I don't think it has to be much, so in reality too much moaning from SAGE I suspect would be enough to do it.
SAGE have been moaning since September and he has not taken any notice.
 

bramling

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SAGE have been moaning since September and he has not taken any notice.

We can keep our fingers crossed, and there are a number of reasons why he's less likely to cave in, however if push comes to shove I think he would still bottle it. I'd agree the bar is higher now than it has been previously. England being an outlier amongst peer nations across Europe would pile pressure on a man who, despite an Eton education, has difficulty defending a position.
 

Mag_seven

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Unfortunately with BJ I don't think it has to be much, so in reality too much moaning from SAGE I suspect would be enough to do it.

Yes that's my worry that he caves in to demands from SAGE. Even Kier Starmer's whining at the end of last year got us the January lockdown.
 
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