Older generation French locomotives

[citycat]

Are there any French locomotive experts on here?

I've been watching a few cab ride youtube videos lately because they've been popping up in my feed, featuring the older generation diesel and electric locos that are slowly being phased out or have gone already. I have a couple of questions.

1. Sometimes when the loco is at line speed, the driver will remove a handle from its socket in the driving desk and lay it across the desk. Sometimes, he will later replace the handle in the socket. What does this handle do and why does it have to be removed during the journey?

2. What is the piece of equipment in the cab of all these different types of locos that makes a loud sound like a fast ticking clock and why does it have to make this noise? I think it would drive me mad having to listen to that all shift.

3. As I'm not fluent in French, during their conversations with whoever is in the cab recording the video, why do the drivers say "Oui Oui Oui" every few minutes throughout the journey? Are they agreeing with something the other bloke has said, or are they indicating their need to go for a tinkle?

4. Why is it not a requirement for French drivers to wear any uniform? As a result, they tend to turn up for their driving duty with the most ill matching clothing they could lay their hands on in the wardrobe. Like a hand knitted purple jumper, navy blue shapeless trousers, and tan slip on suede shoes. Is it in their contract that no uniform is required?

Btw, the last two questions are made in jest so there is no need for anyone to take offence on behalf of the SNCF driving grade.

 

[D6130]

2. What is the piece of equipment in the cab of all these different types of locos that makes a loud sound like a fast ticking clock and why does it have to make this noise? I think it would drive me mad having to listen to that all shift.

Not sure about the answer to question 1, but the ticking sound is coming from the Flaman speed recorder, which would have been running all the time that the loco was in motion. This was the old version of the modern digital ATMR devices and was used as evidence for drivers' financial bonuses and deductions. For many years, French drivers were paid a bonus if they managed to make up time following a delay without exceeding the line or train speed limits. However, if they lost time through their own fault, they would have money deducted from their pay.

 

[citycat]

Not sure about the answer to question 1, but the ticking sound is coming from the Flaman speed recorder, which would have been running all the time that the loco was in motion. This was the old version of the modern digital ATMR devices and was used as evidence for drivers'financial bonuses and deductions. For many years, French drivers were paid a bonus if they managed to make up time following a delay without exceeding the line or train speed limits. However, if they lost time through their own fault, they would have money deducted from their pay.

Thanks for the answer. I wonder what ASLEF would've had to say if deductions in pay had been introduced by BR back in the day before digital?

 

[godfreycomplex]

Are there any French locomotive experts on here?

I've been watching a few cab ride youtube videos lately because they've been popping up in my feed, featuring the older generation diesel and electric locos that are slowly being phased out or have gone already. I have a couple of questions.

1. Sometimes when the loco is at line speed, the driver will remove a handle from its socket in the driving desk and lay it across the desk. Sometimes, he will later replace the handle in the socket. What does this handle do and why does it have to be removed during the journey?

2. What is the piece of equipment in the cab of all these different types of locos that makes a loud sound like a fast ticking clock and why does it have to make this noise? I think it would drive me mad having to listen to that all shift.

3. As I'm not fluent in French, during their conversations with whoever is in the cab recording the video, why do the drivers say "Oui Oui Oui" every few minutes throughout the journey? Are they agreeing with something the other bloke has said, or are they indicating their need to go for a tinkle?

4. Why is it not a requirement for French drivers to wear any uniform? As a result, they tend to turn up for their driving duty with the most ill matching clothing they could lay their hands on in the wardrobe. Like a hand knitted purple jumper, navy blue shapeless trousers, and tan slip on suede shoes. Is it in their contract that no uniform is required?

Btw, the last two questions are made in jest so there is no need for anyone to take offence on behalf of the SNCF driving grade.

4 - it’s called fashion Brenda look it up (no uniform required under contract, just like it should be here)

Have you got a link to these videos by any chance?

 

[citycat]

4 - it’s called fashion Brenda look it up (no uniform required under contract, just like it should be here)

Have you got a link to these videos by any chance?

This video is one example. Jump to 10:00 in and then he takes the handle out 6 seconds later and lays it on the desk.

 

[MarcVD]

This video is one example. Jump to 10:00 in and then he takes the handle out 6 seconds later and lays it on the desk.

Change between AC 25 kV and DC 1,5 kV power supply. You can see the lineside signals that announce it. To change the loco settings, it needs to be completely unpowered, which is what the removal of this handle achieves.

 

[citycat]

Change between AC 25 kV and DC 1,5 kV power supply. You can see the lineside signals that announce it. To change the loco settings, it needs to be completely unpowered, which is what the removal of this handle achieves.

Aah, ok. Thanks for the info.

So, to ask a possibly dumb question, why are there different voltages on the French network as well as other parts of Europe?

 

[hexagon789]

Aah, ok. Thanks for the info.

So, to ask a possibly dumb question, why are there different voltages on the French network as well as other parts of Europe?

History. France electrified in several periods.

Initially limited third rail and overhead systems with various voltages were tried.

In the 1920s the 1500V dc system was chosen by the companies of the day for their mainlines South out of Paris and was also used in the Pyrenees to improve performance over the gradients.

By the 1950s advances in technology saw favourable results obtained with high voltage ac systems, the 25kV 50Hz system being adopted as standard by the SNCF for new installations. However, further installations of 1.5kV where logical to connect/extend existing installations were made and this system is the most common in the South of France and on most of the mainlines from Paris that run southwards, such as those to Tours, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Lyon, Marseilles etc.

The north and east was relatively devoid of electrification compared to elsewhere these areas had heavy industry and the 1950s electrification there with 25kV was done with this in mind, hence 25kV predominates in there and it is used on all the high-speed routes. The classic lines to Brittany and east out to Strasbourg use 25kV.

The 1.5kV was still extended where it was deemed practical to fill in lines connecting existing 1.5kV routes or extend them but for the most part France is now on 25kV with the 1.5kV essentially a legacy system in the same way the 750V dc third rail is in Britain.

 

[43096]

History. France electrified in several periods.

Initially limited third rail and overhead systems with various voltages were tried.

In the 1920s the 1500V dc system was chosen by the companies of the day for their mainlines South out of Paris and was also used in the Pyrenees to improve performance over the gradients.

By the 1950s advances in technology saw favourable results obtained with high voltage ac systems, the 25kV 50Hz system being adopted as standard by the SNCF for new installations. However, further installations of 1.5kV where logical to connect/extend existing installations were made and this system is the most common in the South of France and on most of the mainlines from Paris that run southwards, such as those to Tours, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Lyon, Marseilles etc.

The north and east was relatively devoid of electrification compared to elsewhere these areas had heavy industry and the 1950s electrification there with 25kV was done with this in mind, hence 25kV predominates in there and it is used on all the high-speed routes. The classic lines to Brittany and east out to Strasbourg use 25kV.

The 1.5kV was still extended where it was deemed practical to fill in lines connecting existing 1.5kV routes or extend them but for the most part France is now on 25kV with the 1.5kV essentially a legacy system in the same way the 750V dc third rail is in Britain.

There's still huge swathes of France under 1500V DC, though.

Interestingly, the two countries that have had mixed electrification systems for many decades (France and former Czechoslovakia) and therefore had to be early adopters of multi-system electric locos (Alstom and Skoda built, respectively) have not fared well when it comes to exporting multi-system locos: the vast majority of modern multi-system locos in Europe have German heritage (TRAXX and EuroSprinter/Vectron).

 

[citycat]

History. France electrified in several periods.

Initially limited third rail and overhead systems with various voltages were tried.

In the 1920s the 1500V dc system was chosen by the companies of the day for their mainlines South out of Paris and was also used in the Pyrenees to improve performance over the gradients.

By the 1950s advances in technology saw favourable results obtained with high voltage ac systems, the 25kV 50Hz system being adopted as standard by the SNCF for new installations. However, further installations of 1.5kV where logical to connect/extend existing installations were made and this system is the most common in the South of France and on most of the mainlines from Paris that run southwards, such as those to Tours, Toulouse, Bordeaux, Lyon, Marseilles etc.

The north and east was relatively devoid of electrification compared to elsewhere these areas had heavy industry and the 1950s electrification there with 25kV was done with this in mind, hence 25kV predominates in there and it is used on all the high-speed routes. The classic lines to Brittany and east out to Strasbourg use 25kV.

The 1.5kV was still extended where it was deemed practical to fill in lines connecting existing 1.5kV routes or extend them but for the most part France is now on 25kV with the 1.5kV essentially a legacy system in the same way the 750V dc third rail is in Britain.

Thank you for that very comprehensive explanation. Much appreciated.

 

[hexagon789]

There's still huge swathes of France under 1500V DC, though.

I didn't intend to suggest otherwise, just that new installations are 25kV except where sensible 1.5kV infill can be made. I don't think there's been any substantial new 1.5kV installations since the Perpignan scheme in the 1980s.

According to the SNCF's own figures of the entire electrified network 37.4% uses 1.5kV.

 

[D6130]

I don't think there's been any substantial new 1.5kV installations since the Perpignan scheme in the 1980s.

Correct....and before that, the conversion of the Maurienne line (Chambery-Modane) from third rail to overhead line in 1976.

 

[hexagon789]

Correct....and before that, the conversion of the Maurienne line (Chambery-Modane) from third rail to overhead line in 1976.

Oh yes, using the subset of CC6500s specially equipped for it and presumably other classes?

 

[MarcVD]

Aah, ok. Thanks for the info.

So, to ask a possibly dumb question, why are there different voltages on the French network as well as other parts of Europe?

Because countries/networks picked the most advanced system thar was available at the time they started electrifying.

In 1910/1920, there were 4 systems available, each of them with their own pros and cons.
France went with catenary 1500V DC
UK went with 750V DC third rail
Germany went with 15 kV AC low frequency (because serial motors practically don't work with higher frequency)
Italy went with 3 phase.

Later on came 3 kV DC (better insulation materials made it possible), picked by Belgium, Italy, Spain, Russia...
And finally came 25 kV 50 Hz when it became possible to embark rectifiers on board.

Recently, the advent of reasonably cheap multisystem locos made possible the usage of different systems even on smaller distances. An ICE3 or Thalys PBKA will change voltage 5 times between Brussels and Koln...

 

[071]

Because countries/networks picked the most advanced system thar was available at the time they started electrifying.

I have often wondered why Ireland picked 1500V DC for the DART in the 1980's.

 

[MarcVD]

I have often wondered why Ireland picked 1500V DC for the DART in the 1980's.

In 1980 the 1500V DC electrification system was indeed technically obsolete.

There might be two reasons, though :

1) if the line to electrify has long underground urban sections - at that time it was still feared that 25 kV AC electrification in tunnels below urban areas might induce unacceptable levels of electromagnetic perturbations. This was still feared when SNCF did RER E underground 25 kV electrification between Magenta and Haussmann Saint Lazare. All other underground lines before that were 1500 V.

2) AC substations take power between two phases of the power grid and therefore create a large non symmetrical load. The power grid must be extremely solid in order to accept that. Possibly Ireland, which is not a very industrial country, does not have a very solid power grid, capable of that. This problem is often encountered when electrifying railway lines in third world countries (I do not pretend that Ireland is third world, just that the absence of heavy industry might be a reason for a weaker power grid). This has even been a concern when first substations for high speed lines have been powered up in France. DC rectifiers in substations pull power from the 3 phases and thus generate a symmetrical load, much easier to handle by the power grid.

 

[John-H]

In 1980 the 1500V DC electrification system was indeed technically obsolete.

There might be two reasons, though :

1) if the line to electrify has long underground urban sections - at that time it was still feared that 25 kV AC electrification in tunnels below urban areas might induce unacceptable levels of electromagnetic perturbations. This was still feared when SNCF did RER E underground 25 kV electrification between Magenta and Haussmann Saint Lazare. All other underground lines before that were 1500 V.

2) AC substations take power between two phases of the power grid and therefore create a large non symmetrical load. The power grid must be extremely solid in order to accept that. Possibly Ireland, which is not a very industrial country, does not have a very solid power grid, capable of that. This problem is often encountered when electrifying railway lines in third world countries (I do not pretend that Ireland is third world, just that the absence of heavy industry might be a reason for a weaker power grid). This has even been a concern when first substations for high speed lines have been powered up in France. DC rectifiers in substations pull power from the 3 phases and thus generate a symmetrical load, much easier to handle by the power grid.

The Mount Royal tunnel in Montreal was electrified at 2400 V in1918. In 1993 it was closed and converted to 25 kV. Now it is closed again to be converted to 1500 V, which is much more practical for a lighter passenger rail system.

John

 

[Taunton]

SNCF were actually the world pioneers of 25kV electrification in the 1950s, with Britain following on shortly afterwards. There are advantages, but not so much as to make it worthwhile to convert the onetime DC lines. Very roughly, the SNCF network is half and half of each, with the TGV of course being wholly 25kV. Just as there have been efficiency gains with 25kV over time, likewise there have been with 1500V equipment as well.

There is a lot of dual voltage stock nowadays, it seems to have become the norm, and even some TGV sets are so equipped. The RER has changeover points between the two systems right in the middle of Paris - the voltage used commonly is driven by whatever the suburban lines it was extended out to already had.

Interesting little island at Ventimiglia, on the Riviera, the border town between France (25kV) and Italy (3000V DC). Given that the SNCF stock in the area is dual voltage anyway, about a mile before the station there is a changeover to 1500V, which the (Italian) border station is wired at. Meanwhile, a further mile out on the Italian side there is a further changeover point from 3000V to 1500V, and Italian trains run in the station area on half voltage, fully mixed in with French stock. I imagine the same is done at other border points, such as with Belgium which is also 3000V.

Bear in mind that those longstanding French world speed records of the 1950s at over 200mph were done on 1500V

The country with the greatest mixture of the two systems is Russia, which again nowadays is about half and half, between 3000V DC and 25kV. Even the Trans-Siberian is divided between DC (western half) and AC (Eastern half), which broadly reflects when it was progressively electrified.

 

[43096]

There is a lot of dual voltage stock nowadays, it seems to have become the norm, and even some TGV sets are so equipped.

All TGV sets are at least dual voltage and have been since the first build. Indeed many are now triple voltage for international services.

 

[MarcVD]

Absolutely all TGV sets are at least dual voltage, since the beginning. Paris to Lyon via classical line is 1500V and the high speed line is 25 kV so they always needed both.

There used to be two stations with so called commutable tracks at the French Belgian border, Quevy and Jeumont. Those border points are now exclusively served by multisystem locos so those commutable tracks are now out of service.

 

[D6130]

Russia, which again nowadays is about half and half, between 3000V DC and 25kV.

Likewise the Czech Republic.

 

[DanielB]

I imagine the same is done at other border points, such as with Belgium which is also 3000V.

This is indeed also done at the two electrified border crossings between Belgium and the Netherlands (Roosendaal and Visé), where Belgian trains cross the border at half power. However only the older rolling stock is capable of doing so, a Belgian Desiro would for example just switch off when it senses 1500 V DC.

The Visé border is a special case by the way, with Belgian 3 kV extending up to the outskirts of Maastricht in the Netherlands. This happened to be more practical than building an additional 1500 V substation, but also means Dutch trains cannot reach the Dutch station of Eijsden.

 

[Gloster]

In 1980 the 1500V DC electrification system was indeed technically obsolete.

There might be two reasons, though :

1) if the line to electrify has long underground urban sections - at that time it was still feared that 25 kV AC electrification in tunnels below urban areas might induce unacceptable levels of electromagnetic perturbations. This was still feared when SNCF did RER E underground 25 kV electrification between Magenta and Haussmann Saint Lazare. All other underground lines before that were 1500 V.

2) AC substations take power between two phases of the power grid and therefore create a large non symmetrical load. The power grid must be extremely solid in order to accept that. Possibly Ireland, which is not a very industrial country, does not have a very solid power grid, capable of that. This problem is often encountered when electrifying railway lines in third world countries (I do not pretend that Ireland is third world, just that the absence of heavy industry might be a reason for a weaker power grid). This has even been a concern when first substations for high speed lines have been powered up in France. DC rectifiers in substations pull power from the 3 phases and thus generate a symmetrical load, much easier to handle by the power grid.

If I remember correctly, there are also some fairly tight tunnels to the south of Dun Laoghaire and there are also quite a few bridges. The line was the first one built in Ireland and may still have tighter clearances than the rest of the network; it was built to 4’ 8 1/2” gauge. They may also have already been thinking of extensions, such as through the tunnels over Bray Head to Greystones.

 

[Beebman]

The Dutch-German border crossing between Zevenaar and Emmerich involves 3 different voltages. Trains leave Zevenaar on 1500V DC but soon switch to 25kV AC before the trailing junction with the Betuweroute which is electrified at that voltage. The 25kV continues over the German border, through the station of Emmerich-Elten (which I think is the only station in Germany with 25kV OHLE) and then a few kms later there's a changeover to 15kV AC before Emmerich station (which used to be commutable between 1500V and 15kV). I understand that this arrangement was made so that freight trains to and from the Betuweroute only have to make one voltage change.

 

[Taunton]

Likewise the Czech Republic.

All the Soviet Union electric passenger locomotives built until the end of socialist days in the 1990s, even on the Trans-Siberian, were built by Skoda in Czechoslovakia, so they had plenty of export opportunity for the two types. The bodies of the Soviet locomotives are the same for either voltage, so in a photograph you have to look closely at the numbering to see which system it was built for. I don't think they had any dual voltage locos, nor emus (where the same appearence for both electric systems also applied), apart from the special Alstom-built Allegro high speed units which run between St Petersburg, Russia and Helsinki, Finland, 3000V in the former and 25kV in the latter, so there continues to be loco changing at the changeover points - plus the Soviets, and now Russia, always seem to have used a lot of diesel power under the wire.

 

[coppercapped]

SNCF were actually the world pioneers of 25kV electrification in the 1950s, with Britain following on shortly afterwards. There are advantages, but not so much as to make it worthwhile to convert the onetime DC lines. Very roughly, the SNCF network is half and half of each, with the TGV of course being wholly 25kV. Just as there have been efficiency gains with 25kV over time, likewise there have been with 1500V equipment as well.

There is a lot of dual voltage stock nowadays, it seems to have become the norm, and even some TGV sets are so equipped. The RER has changeover points between the two systems right in the middle of Paris - the voltage used commonly is driven by whatever the suburban lines it was extended out to already had.

Interesting little island at Ventimiglia, on the Riviera, the border town between France (25kV) and Italy (3000V DC). Given that the SNCF stock in the area is dual voltage anyway, about a mile before the station there is a changeover to 1500V, which the (Italian) border station is wired at. Meanwhile, a further mile out on the Italian side there is a further changeover point from 3000V to 1500V, and Italian trains run in the station area on half voltage, fully mixed in with French stock. I imagine the same is done at other border points, such as with Belgium which is also 3000V.

Bear in mind that those longstanding French world speed records of the 1950s at over 200mph were done on 1500V

The country with the greatest mixture of the two systems is Russia, which again nowadays is about half and half, between 3000V DC and 25kV. Even the Trans-Siberian is divided between DC (western half) and AC (Eastern half), which broadly reflects when it was progressively electrified.

Pedant alert...!

Back in the distant past (early 1930s, but I can't remember the exact date ) the Hungarian railways did some experiments using the 'Mitteleuropa' standard voltage of 15kV but at 50Hz rather than 16 2/3 Hz. The system was a bit clunky - on-board rectifiers not really being a thing then - but the German Reichsbahn electrified an experiment stretch of the Höllentalbahn in the Black Forest just before the Second World War at 20kV and 50Hz.

This line was in the French area of occupation after the war when SNCF engineers examined it. They then used the technology to electrify a test stretch in Savoy around 1950/1.

After that was shown to work the French pioneered the electrification of main lines at 25kV single phase aided by the development of vehicle-friendly mercury arc rectifiers permitting the use of dc traction motors. The rest, as Taunton points out, is history... !

 

[DanielB]

The Dutch-German border crossing between Zevenaar and Emmerich involves 3 different voltages. Trains leave Zevenaar on 1500V DC but soon switch to 25kV AC before the trailing junction with the Betuweroute which is electrified at that voltage. The 25kV continues over the German border, through the station of Emmerich-Elten (which I think is the only station in Germany with 25kV OHLE) and then a few kms later there's a changeover to 15kV AC before Emmerich station (which used to be commutable between 1500V and 15kV). I understand that this arrangement was made so that freight trains to and from the Betuweroute only have to make one voltage change.

Most probably to avoid a voltage change for heavy freight trains which are just exiting the tunnel in the Betuweroute at Zevenaar Oost junction. Otherwise extending German 15 kV to Zevenaar would have also worked to have only one voltage change on the freight route.
At this border crossing there are not only three voltages by the way, but international passenger trains also need to change from PZB to ETCS and to then ATB-NG and vice versa.

 

[43096]

(which I think is the only station in Germany with 25kV OHLE)

The Rübelandbahn is electrified at 25kV AX.

 

[Beebman]

The Rübelandbahn is electrified at 25kV AX.

I'd forgotten about that (even though I 'did' it in 1999 with a class 171 on two coaches) however there are no longer any passenger services on the line. Blankenburg (Harz) station at the northern end of line is though still electrified at 25kV but all passenger services to and from Halberstadt are diesel-operated. Emmerich-Elten station is served by multi-voltage Abellio EMUs running between Düsseldorf/Duisburg and Arnhem.

 

[Taunton]

The voltage is incidental to AC development, what was the advance was using the 50Hz frequency from the public supply, to avoid having to have independent switching stations or mechanical rotary converters. The pioneer UK 50Hz installation, Lancaster to Heysham, is sometimes misquoted as 25kV, which it wasn't, it was originally 6.6kV at 25Hz with its own power station, which was as far as had been practical to go when installed (Germany etc use 16.6Hz). The R&D was changing this to 50Hz; the voltage was by the by, and just kept the same to avoid changing insulators and clearances.

It's interesting to read that while the original 1908 equipment on the Heysham line is quoted as 99.6% availability after delivery, the 50Hz experimental units 50 years later brought a range of technical issues, something often paralleled on systems which installed 1500V initially and later changed to the new wonder 25kV Electrification Pioneers (visit-gloucestershire.co.uk)