Could Liverpool see a new underground HS2 station?

[Bletchleyite]

It could have started in the North. No crazy 'environmentalists' (in name only) here as far as I'm aware. If there were, I feel like we'd get a lot of tunnels too.

Then it would not have fulfilled its primary function of relieving capacity on the WCML south of Rugby. That is the main business case.

 

[MattRat]

Then it would not have fulfilled its primary function of relieving capacity on the WCML south of Rugby. That is the main business case.

It would be the exact same railway, just started in the North.

 

[Bald Rick]

It would be the exact same railway, just started in the North.

But with the primary benefits (and thus revenue to pay for it) delayed.

 

[MattRat]

But with the primary benefits (and thus revenue to pay for it) delayed.

A government that would choose to build in the North would also want it well funded, as they'd already be more compassionate than the current one.

 

[zwk500]

A government that would choose to build in the North would also want it well funded, as they'd already be more compassionate than the current one.

Are you admitting that any investment in the north is essentially wasted?

Regardless of what the government of the day would want, the government's creditors (who would be paying for the line) will certainly want their money back, with interest. If fares and stimulated growth doesn't cover it, then the only way it can be covered is to spend less or raise taxes, including in the North.

 

[Bald Rick]

A government that would choose to build in the North would also want it well funded, as they'd already be more compassionate than the current one.

I’m sorry I don’t understand what you mean.

 

[MattRat]

Are you admitting that any investment in the north is essentially wasted?

Regardless of what the government of the day would want, the government's creditors (who would be paying for the line) will certainly want their money back, with interest. If fares and stimulated growth doesn't cover it, then the only way it can be covered is to spend less or raise taxes, including in the North.

Only if the investment isn't worth it in the South

By compassionate I more meant value the North the same as the South. Labour appears to want to do that from what they've said after the Eastern leg was dropped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A government that would choose to build in the North would also want it well funded, as they'd already be more compassionate than the current one.

It isn't being built out of compassion, it is being built because of a specific transport need, which is greatest at the south end.

 

[MattRat]

It isn't being built out of compassion, it is being built because of a specific transport need, which is greatest at the south end.

Let me explain it another way: The way the Conservatives are building it is to spite the North. Liverpool deserves better stations, Leeds and Sheffield need a better line than the Midland 'main' line, Manchester deserves a through HS2 station for through HS2 services, etc, etc.

 

[tomuk]

Let me explain it another way: The way the Conservatives are building it is to spite the North. Liverpool deserves better stations, Leeds and Sheffield need a better line than the Midland 'main' line, Manchester deserves a through HS2 station for through HS2 services, etc, etc.

Liverpool doesn't need a better NPR/HS2 station
Manchester doesn't need a through HS2 station

Leeds needs a better service to London
Leeds to Sheffield needs a better service

Did HS2 East provide a better service than ECML upgrade - Yes, is ECML pgrade ok ? Maybe
Did HS2 East provide a better Sheffield-Leeds service - Not really. Does anything in IRP? No.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Let me explain it another way: The way the Conservatives are building it is to spite the North. Liverpool deserves better stations, Leeds and Sheffield need a better line than the Midland 'main' line, Manchester deserves a through HS2 station for through HS2 services, etc, etc.

As long as Manchester gets a HS2 station that will connect it to the biggest city in the Midlands and the capital city, it will care not a jot about other areas that are also served by its rail services from both the Piccadilly and the Victoria existing railway stations.

No-one ever postulates that Manchester Airport should have short-haul flights to all other airports in the North and the Midlands.

 

[MattRat]

Liverpool doesn't need a better NPR/HS2 station
Manchester doesn't need a through HS2 station

Why can't we? London gets everything it wants, why not the North? We have been left behind for decades, and it should be finally time we caught up to London.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why can't we? London gets everything it wants, why not the North? We have been left behind for decades, and it should be finally time we caught up to London.

What are the population figures of:-
1) The Greater London area.
2) The Greater Birmingham area
3) The Greater Manchester area.

 

[zwk500]

Why can't we? London gets everything it wants, why not the North? We have been left behind for decades, and it should be finally time we caught up to London.

Do you have any idea how childishly petulant this line of reasoning is?

 

[MattRat]

Do you have any idea how childishly petulant this line of reasoning is?

Do you have any idea how bad the infrastructure up North is? Just look at the map for the Midland 'main' line as a prime example. It's as straight as a roundabout!

 

[BayPaul]

Do you have any idea how bad the infrastructure up North is? Just look at the map for the Midland 'main' line as a prime example. It's as straight as a roundabout!

So let's spend money improving that, not waste it on a new station in Liverpool that really isn't needed.
The other suggestions made here, of diverting and improving local services to free up a bit of space in Lime Street, whilst giving massive frequency improvements to stations out to Warrington would deliver a real benefit.
All the talk of a new station and tunnel is just a case of Manchester got a new toy, why can't I have one too?

 

[Bald Rick]

London gets everything it wants

Does it?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So let's spend money improving that, not waste it on a new station in Liverpool that really isn't needed.
The other suggestions made here, of diverting and improving local services to free up a bit of space in Lime Street, whilst giving massive frequency improvements to stations out to Warrington would deliver a real benefit.
All the talk of a new station and tunnel is just a case of Manchester got a new toy, why can't I have one too?

Some people conveniently forget that Liverpool has a functioning underground city centre rail loop system. Manchester, on the other hand, only had a talk-shop quite a few years ago for the Pic-Vic tunnel project and was never proceeded with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Let me explain it another way: The way the Conservatives are building it is to spite the North.

Absolute rubbish. It is being built in the order of benefit.

Liverpool deserves better stations

Eh? Liverpool has better stations than most of the rest of the country.

Leeds and Sheffield need a better line than the Midland 'main' line, Manchester deserves a through HS2 station for through HS2 services, etc, etc.

These have more merits.

 

[stuu]

Do you have any idea how bad the infrastructure up North is?

There is only one city in England where all the railway lines into the centre are electrified. It is also one of only three cities with a proper metro. Any guesses?

 

[A0]

A government that would choose to build in the North would also want it well funded, as they'd already be more compassionate than the current one.

Utter nonsense - the funding model used would have been exactly the same regardless of government "colour".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2021 ==

Do you have any idea how bad the infrastructure up North is? Just look at the map for the Midland 'main' line as a prime example. It's as straight as a roundabout!

BIB - That's a historic issue though by the way the railways were built. The same is also true of much of the WCML, yet that has been upgraded to 125mph running to reduce journey times - perhaps the fact the WCML serves Birmingham, Manchester and is a through route to Glasgow is the reason why that was done and the MML - which serves secondary cities in, primarily the East Midlands (not the North) hasn't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2021 ==

Let me explain it another way: The way the Conservatives are building it is to spite the North. Liverpool deserves better stations, Leeds and Sheffield need a better line than the Midland 'main' line, Manchester deserves a through HS2 station for through HS2 services, etc, etc.

How does Liverpool "deserve" better stations ? In what way is Lime Street inferior to Manchester Piccadilly or Birmingham New Street for example?

In what way is Liverpool Central inferior to Birmingham Moor Street or Manchester Victoria ?

Leeds doesn't "need" the MML at all - the quicker route for Leeds *has always been* the East Coast Mainline, heading both north and south - it's why Leeds gets a half-hourly service from Kings Cross which takes pretty much the same time as Euston to Manchester Piccadilly does (about 5 mins difference).

 

[Bletchleyite]

BIB - That's a historic issue though by the way the railways were built. The same is also true of much of the WCML, yet that has been upgraded to 125mph running to reduce journey times - perhaps the fact the WCML serves Birmingham, Manchester and is a through route to Glasgow is the reason why that was done and the MML - which serves secondary cities in, primarily the East Midlands (not the North) hasn't.

Also don't forget there has been incremental work, such as the complete rebuild of Market Harborough station to straighten out a curve.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just look at the map for the Midland 'main' line as a prime example. It's as straight as a roundabout!

And the longest stretch of straight track in the country is firmly in Yorkshire; therefore the infrastructure in the north must be excellent.

Or perhaps there are other metrics that determine the quality of infrastructure.

 

[A0]

Also don't forget there has been incremental work, such as the complete rebuild of Market Harborough station to straighten out a curve.

I wasn't going to mention that because the poster in question was probably going to argue that was in the south i.e. south of Leicester.....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Nov 2021 ==

And the longest stretch of straight track in the country is firmly in Yorkshire; therefore the infrastructure in the north must be excellent.

Or perhaps there are other metrics that determine the quality of infrastructure.

Would that be on the same mainline which was part of last week's announcements as being in line for various upgrades to achieve journey time improvements to places like Leeds on the off-chance ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wasn't going to mention that because the poster in question was probably going to argue that was in the south i.e. south of Leicester.....

Of course, like HS2 Phase 1, that does speed things up for people north of it too.

 

[Gareth]

HS2's main practical raisin d'etre is to relieve the southern WCML. North of there, it was always more of a political project to link London with certain "regional capitals", so the UK could say it has a high speed rail network like France does.

It was never really about improving links within the north and still isn't; which is why Liverpool-Leeds will be a doggleggy affair with a reversal in central Manchester.

The Leeds leg was canned to save the Manchester leg, as costs spiralled. The proposed Liverpool-Leeds & Birmingham-Leeds services via Manchester are also to help justify building the Manchester leg.

Whether or not it improves links from your town to some other town is down to sheer luck.

 

[Bletchleyite]

HS2's main practical raisin d'etre is to relieve the southern WCML. North of there, it was always more of a political project to link London with certain "regional capitals", so the UK could say it has a high speed rail network like France does.

The former is absolutely true. The latter seems a slightly bitter interpretation as it does provide benefits to the regions too, in terms of speed, resilience and capacity where needed, so is more a case of adding some affordable stuff on to get those benefits (which aren't as important as the former) rather than a sop.

 

[Gareth]

I didn't say it doesn't yield benefits but merely that they're a happy consequence rather than an intention. Likewise with unhappy consequences such as the ludicrous disparity between predicted London-Manchester and London-Liverpool journey times.

 

[A0]

It was never really about improving links within the north and still isn't; which is why Liverpool-Leeds will be a doggleggy affair with a reversal in central Manchester.

So what would you have built then ?

The reality is if you were building a direct Liverpool - Leeds line you'd miss central Manchester altogether and would run from Liverpool to Swinton and then shadow the M60/62 to Leeds.

Though that would mean missing Manchester, Halifax, Huddersfield and Bradford.

 

[CdBrux]

So what would you have built then ?

The reality is if you were building a direct Liverpool - Leeds line you'd miss central Manchester altogether and would run from Liverpool to Swinton and then shadow the M60/62 to Leeds.

Though that would mean missing Manchester, Halifax, Huddersfield and Bradford.

but you'd at least save some grief of Manchester mayor complaining he didn't get the 'perfect' solution in his city paid for by others and either Halifax or Huddersfield complaining the other was favoured...