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Walk-on Fares: An alternative perspective...

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Sm5

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Airline price the tickets.

highest Is walk up, fully flexible, refundable and points earning, with option to use first class if the train is agreed to be full as per the guards discretion.

lowest is a set train bought ages ago and is non refundable.

Linking with points schemes is one way to earn loyalty, but on a US styled program, not a BA style one, as that disincentives travel.
 
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Bletchleyite

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You mean a bit like airlines don't do any more?

With regard to what Ian is saying, provided you can change up to the last minute from your phone, and provided you removed the start/end short/leave station restrictions so you could plan in a break, actual walk up tickets aren't that important in a way. But the price cap they provide is very important indeed.

As for that LNER example, I suspect that was a short form (you need to know what you are doing to avoid "compulsory reservations" on LNER at the moment), and I bet that person would have complained if they had had to wait until tomorrow...yes, people complain about overselling, but they would also complain if left stranded as per air travel...
 
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Hadders

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You mean a bit like airlines don't do any more?

With regard to what Ian is saying, provided you can change up to the last minute from your phone, and provided you removed the start/end short/leave station restrictions so you could plan in a break, actual walk up tickets aren't that important in a way. But the price cap they provide is very important indeed.
Last night I went to an event near Twickenham, returning to Milton Keynes.

Left Twickenham and the train I was on developed a fault resulting in the train being cancelled. This resulted in me missing the connection to the Avanti train at Euston. Next train was cancelled. Now, how is this dealt with if compulsory reservations are required - sorry train's fully booked so you can't travel.

Now, you might say standing passengers can be accommodated in the event of disruption - but then the railway will be accused of overselling tickets.

It's just not going to work.
 

JonathanH

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In the specific case of Milton Keynes, wouldn't you just take the local service to Milton Keynes rather than the long-distance one? No one is suggesting making them reservation only.

In the instance of long-distance trains, some algorithm would rebook passengers onto another service.

In the case of LNER today, it seems like that Hitachi didn't deliver on the required stock resulting in a short form. However, it also seems that the combination of the Lincoln diversions and the availability of bi-mode units can't match demand. By making the walk-up fare between London and Newcastle limited to routes through Peterborough, they can't even send people to different routes.
 

Hadders

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In the specific case of Milton Keynes, wouldn't you just take the local service to Milton Keynes rather than the long-distance one? No one is suggesting making them reservation only.

In the instance of long-distance trains, some algorithm would rebook passengers onto another service.

In the case of LNER today, it seems like that Hitachi didn't deliver on the required stock resulting in a short form. However, it also seems that the combination of the Lincoln diversions and the availability of bi-mode units can't match demand. By making the walk-up fare between London and Newcastle limited to routes through Peterborough, they can't even send people to different routes.
Milton Keynes a bad example, what of my journey was to Birmingham, or Grantham or Leicester. Fancy algorithms are all well and good but what happens when all the sets are booked.

The algorithm booking you onto a train tomorrow afternoon simply isn't going to cut it.
 

Solent&Wessex

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In the specific case of Milton Keynes, wouldn't you just take the local service to Milton Keynes rather than the long-distance one? No one is suggesting making them reservation only.

In the instance of long-distance trains, some algorithm would rebook passengers onto another service.

In the case of LNER today, it seems like that Hitachi didn't deliver on the required stock resulting in a short form. However, it also seems that the combination of the Lincoln diversions and the availability of bi-mode units can't match demand. By making the walk-up fare between London and Newcastle limited to routes through Peterborough, they can't even send people to different routes.

The problem is that in the UK the long distance trains are also, in many cases, the local trains too.

There are many examples where the long distance services provided by the likes of LNER, CrossCountry, Avanti are also the only, or the main / most frequent, local train between nearby towns. If you want to go from Doncaster to Leeds would you catch the twice an hour fast LNER service, or the once an hour very slow Northern service? Doncaster to York is only possible on LNER or XC. The Northern end of the WCML - many journeys are only available by using Avanti or TPE. The CrossCountry and Great Western networks are even worse.

If you make all these long distance trains reservation only or "Advance" ticket only then how do you determine where the cut off is between what is considered a long distance train and a local train? As there is so much overlap between the two then how do manage the short hop journeys without making it unnecessarily complicated to the point that people just don't bother and end up driving instead, thereby making road congestion even worse than it often is in the regional towns?

Unless you have a largely segregated long distance and local network- which we don't have in this country because we haven't got the capacity to do so - then removing the ability to just turn up and catch the train for a short distance journey to work / shops / the pub / meet friends without having to worry about booking seats on specific trains, or whether your whole family will get reservations to sit together etc - is just not practical.

And even if you do try and go down the route, how do you actually stop people just boarding the wrong train. It might be possible at barriered terminal stations which have 20 to 30 minutes to board a train, but how do you actually stop someone getting on the wrong train at Doncaster if they are just going to Wakefield or York, or Lancaster if they are just going to Preston?

And as others have pointed out, how on earth do you manage disruption? A train that is fully booked is cancelled for some reason, or a route with lots of fully booked trains is temporarily closed due to an incident. What then? Just tell everyone to go away because all the alternative trains and routes are full and you can't get a reservation, so there is no space for you on other trains? Or just cram them on the alternatives and get the "you've oversold the train, this is disgusting" tweets and complaints?

No, this country is too small and the rail network too varied and not segregated enough to go down the whole no walk up travel / reservation only policy.
 
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Bletchleyite

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When CR was last discussed it was pointed out that because the IC trains tend to tip out as they get away from London/fill up toward it there would always be enough space to carry those local passengers, who would just make a reservation at the station when they got there, or on their phone on the way to it. That's the exact reason why Avanti offer cheap Stockport-Manchester fares, for instance.

Other than severe disruption when you'd probably want to lift the policy anyway, the only exception I can think of to this where there is no viable alternative is some Avanti Scottish services which also pick up towards Scotland and so end up very busy throughout, but only really between Crewe and Wigan. The long-proposed Crewe-Carlisle stopper would sort that, or keeping a quota of seats free for it once things start getting full, or if they do get full release a quota of "standing tickets" (counted places) to ensure you can always book the local journey.

Something else that came up on another thread was that if you know every passenger's full itinerary, you can notify them of problems and offer alternatives before they reach the problem, making for a smoother resolution of the issue. For instance if the last GWR from London that made the connection to St Ives was very late leaving Paddington and so you'd know the connection would miss and couldn't hold it due to staff availability, you'd have a pretty good idea of how many buses/taxis you were going to need potentially hours in advance. (The local passengers having boarded the train departing on time, of course, so only the connectional passengers are of interest).

One more, if this thread is primarily about benefit to the railway (as the first post suggests), probably the biggest one is that encouraging advance booking means less ticket office and TVM capacity needed, thus saving a packet. The fairly quick switch from cinemas selling tickets only on the premises to advance booking with seat selection basically did away with box offices entirely, with the very small number of walk-up customers remaining being able to buy their ticket at the refreshments till without requiring extra staff.

One aspect I think needs addressing is making it easier to change reservations online, from your phone, at the TVM etc. It's really easy to change an easyJet flight on their app, I recall once waking up for my then-weekly-commute flight at 4am and feeling a little ill, so while still half asleep I spent about 30 seconds changing the flight to the next day and went back to sleep. None of the train booking sites make things this easy. And like easyJet, it needs to be possible to do things with existing bookings at all sales channels. Another thing easyJet does is to mark a booking disrupted once a cancellation is known and then you can rebook it from the app for free, it doesn't wait for you to rock up at the airport and shout at staff (so good for staff welfare, too).

I think there were faults with how LNER did it for COVID (but to be honest it was impressive compared with what other TOCs did) - but that was rushed. Design the system properly and it could work quite well. If HS2 construction indeed effectively mandates it due to short stops at OOC and tunnel evacuation, this is rather an opportunity to get it right.
 
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Hadders

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When CR was last discussed it was pointed out that because the IC trains tend to tip out as they get away from London/fill up toward it there would always be enough space to carry those local passengers, who would just make a reservation at the station when they got there, or on their phone on the way to it. That's the exact reason why Avanti offer cheap Stockport-Manchester fares, for instance.
I disagree with this. Take the 06:16 Avanti from Euston to Manchester. Calls Stoke on Trent at 08:00 and is the commuter train into Manchester. Standing room only from Stoke.

How do you manage events like Manchester United playing at home. Football at Newcastle/Sunderland, Christmas markets at Bath etc.

I could go on….
 

Bletchleyite

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I disagree with this. Take the 06:16 Avanti from Euston to Manchester. Calls Stoke on Trent at 08:00 and is the commuter train into Manchester. Standing room only from Stoke.

Sounds like that needs a Northern service with a long doors at thirds EMU to me.

How do you manage events like Manchester United playing at home. Football at Newcastle/Sunderland, Christmas markets at Bath etc.

I could go on….

It would actually work quite well in those settings as it would prevent the old chestnut of everyone rocking up half-cut for the last train and some being left behind for the BTP to deal with. You book, and if it is full you find another way to travel. Counted places could allow a standing load commensurate with capacity (and allow people to see that, so if they don't want to stand they can choose not to book). And because people are booking, the railway can know they are and look at putting on an additional or longer train when it looks like it is getting full, just as NatEx are quite good at doing with duplicate coaches. So you don't get to that last train and a 5 car Voyager rocks up with 1000 people on the platform.
 
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