Extend Eastern Stub to ECML?

[MattRat]

Before you even think of typing, I know the Eastern Leg not being built in full is a terrible idea and should have been built, but if we don't work with what we've got, it'll be even worse than if we try to salvage the scraps left. With that in mind, my proposal is to extend the Eastern Stub from East Midlands Parkway past Nottingham to the East Coast Mainline. What this enables is Edinburgh trains to bypass the Midland Mainline and leave capacity on that section for Sheffield and Leeds services. An easier crazier thought (yes really) would be to run Leeds services via this new line, so only Sheffield trains use the Midland Mainline freeing up space for freight and commuter service, although at that point the Leeds route would be as straight as the MML, even if it did have more fast track to help cover the extra difference.

I know what I'm suggesting sounds crazy, but I'm open to any possibility at this point to fix the mess we are now in. So, thoughts?

 

[JonathanH]

Before you even think of typing, I know the Eastern Leg not being built in full is a terrible idea and should have been built, but if we don't work with what we've got, it'll be even worse than if we try to salvage the scraps left. With that in mind, my proposal is to extend the Eastern Stub from East Midlands Parkway past Nottingham to the East Coast Mainline. What this enables is Edinburgh trains to bypass the Midland Mainline and leave capacity on that section for Sheffield and Leeds services. An easier crazier thought (yes really) would be to run Leeds services via this new line, so only Sheffield trains use the Midland Mainline freeing up space for freight and commuter service, although at that point the Leeds route would be as straight as the MML, even if it did have more fast track to help cover the extra difference.

I know what I'm suggesting sounds crazy, but I'm open to any possibility at this point to fix the mess we are now in. So, thoughts?

I think the problem with that suggestion is that a) it is still new line that has to be paid for and then built and b) it essentially goes in the wrong direction - eg east rather than north. What else would the route carry? How would it get through Nottingham? Why would this be built rather than going through the Erewash Valley. The answer to not having enough money to invest in a new line isn't really to build it somewhere else that wasn't the first choice.

(I think there was a thread in the past that discussed a Newark curve - the existing line from Nottingham out to Newark isn't exactly quick and has a number of level crossings.)

 

[MattRat]

I think the problem with that suggestion is that a) it is still new line that has to be paid for and then built and b) it essentially goes in the wrong direction - eg east rather than north. What else would the route carry? How would it get through Nottingham? Why would this be built rather than going through the Erewash Valley.

Well the main purpose is to get Edinburgh bound trains off the MML. Even on the MML, you eventually have to go east to get to Scotland. The Edinburgh trains were also planned before the Eastern leg was scrapped, so the government must have seen a reason to do that. You may see it as pointless for so little traffic, but hat could also be said for HS2, and that rather ignores the main purpose of both anyway, which is to free up space on other lines to run more services on them, which this minor extension accomplishes.

As for construction, I see East Midlands Parkway as the spur, and the connection to the ECML as the main part, which should make it easier to bypass Nottingham.

 

[PTR 444]

Well the main purpose is to get Edinburgh bound trains off the MML. Even on the MML, you eventually have to go east to get to Scotland. The Edinburgh trains were also planned before the Eastern leg was scrapped, so the government must have seen a reason to do that. You may see it as pointless for so little traffic, but hat could also be said for HS2, and that rather ignores the main purpose of both anyway, which is to free up space on other lines to run more services on them, which this minor extension accomplishes.

As for construction, I see East Midlands Parkway as the spur, and the connection to the ECML as the main part, which should make it easier to bypass Nottingham.

London - Edinburgh trains wouldn’t need to use HS2 and the MML if the eastern leg only went to East Midlands Parkway. They would use the ECML in full from Kings Cross instead.

As for Brum - Edinburgh, wouldn’t that be better off going via the WCML?

 

[snowball]

Were any London-Edinburgh or Brum-Edinburgh trains ever planned to use the eastern arm of HS2?

 

[JonathanH]

Even on the MML, you eventually have to go east to get to Scotland.

Only because of the railway geography. Edinburgh is further west than anywhere on the MML. Realistically no route from London and HS2 to the Newark area is going to be quicker than going from Kings Cross on the ECML

Newark passing time is 68 minutes from Kings Cross. Nottingham from Euston is 57 minutes in the IRP. Newark isn't a great place for trains to rejoin the ECML in terms of freeing up capacity in any case.

The HS2 time from Euston to Sheffield via Derby of 87 minutes is only a few minutes quicker than Kings Cross non stop to Doncaster.

Were any London-Edinburgh or Brum-Edinburgh trains ever planned to usse the eastern arm of HS2?

No. It isn't the most direct route.

 

[30907]

The Greengauge consultancy also proposed running London-Nottingham-ECML Newark area as an alternative to the original route.

http://www.greengauge21.net/category/blog/

(Sorry, can't link to the original report which presumably explained how they would get through Nottingham.)

 

[MattRat]

Were any London-Edinburgh or Brum-Edinburgh trains ever planned to use the eastern arm of HS2?

London to Edinburgh was via Birmingham Interchange and York. Didn't hear anything about them scrapping it either.

 

[Starmill]

Were any London-Edinburgh or Brum-Edinburgh trains ever planned to use the eastern arm of HS2?

No. 200m trains would have been unsuitable, and 400m trains were almost impossible to fit in at Newcastle.

 

[ABB125]

London to Edinburgh was via Birmingham Interchange and York. Didn't hear anything about them scrapping it either.

London to Scotland trains running on HS2 were never planned to go via the East Coast, only the West Coast. I believe the furthest north HS2 east trains would have gone was Newcastle.

 

[tbtc]

Newark would be a nightmare to sort out, given the flat crossing/ River Trent/ ground conditions (even if you were able to divert the A46) - if it was easy to do then I'd be in favour of a chord, since Nottingham has pretty poor connections to the north - but I don't think it'll be easy

But my main point to suggestions like this is that there's a lot of reluctance to "mission creep". HS2 have always been quite careful not to end up paying for non-core things, like a connection at Birmingham towards the South West

A recent example is the GWML out of Paddington - extending Crossrail to Reading made a lot of sense to some people but that'd have meant paying for the electrification to Reading - but if you can wait for the GWML electrification to be announced (and paid for from a national budget) then you can piggyback on it and use the Thames Valley wires for free. So, I wouldn't be surprised if high speed lines are built "so far" but with the provision for extensions beyond on the proviso that someone else pays for it from their budget

 

[MattRat]

No. 200m trains would have been unsuitable, and 400m trains were almost impossible to fit in at Newcastle.

London to Scotland trains running on HS2 were never planned to go via the East Coast, only the West Coast. I believe the furthest north HS2 east trains would have gone was Newcastle.

You can't both be correct.

 

[ABB125]

You can't both be correct.

I can't see any contradiction? The HS2 Newcastle trains were going to be 200m as far as I'm aware

 

[Starmill]

You can't both be correct.

I believe both statements are correct

 

[Halifaxlad]

I think the problem with that suggestion is that a) it is still new line that has to be paid for and then built and b) it essentially goes in the wrong direction - eg east rather than north. What else would the route carry?

This reminded me of one of the many things about the HS2 eastern leg, the fact that for Leeds - London services would have to go via Birmingham that is West of London.

Anyway I think a chord could be useful for some services, especially for the Birmingham - Leeds - York - Darlington & Newcastle services as even according to the IRP it is connections from Birmingham Northwards are the ones that will loose out massively in comparison to everything else which is marginal!

Under IRP

Birmingham - York 53 minutes slower
Birmingham - Darlington 51 minutes slower
Birmgham - Newcastle 50 minutes slower

 

[JonathanH]

This reminded me of one of the many things about the HS2 eastern leg, the fact that for Leeds - London services would have to go via Birmingham that is West of London.

Yes, but Birmingham isn't really very far west of Leeds. Longitude of Euston, Birmingham International and Leeds are

Euston -0.14
Birmingham International -1.73
Leeds -1.54

Doncaster arguably couldn't take the additional services without substantial reconstruction.

I agree that Birmingham to the North East services are somewhat disappointing relative to what might have been but don't think going via a Newark chord would help much.

 

[MattRat]

Doncaster arguably couldn't take the additional services without substantial reconstruction.

I doubt the cost of upgrading Doncaster would come anywhere near the cost of the Eastern Leg in full had it gone ahead.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Doncaster arguably couldn't take the additional services without substantial reconstruction.

Aren't they investing in Doncaster as part of upgrading the ECML ?

Personally I would create a bypass around it!

 

[MattRat]

Aren't they investing in Doncaster as part of upgrading the ECML ?

Personally I would create a bypass around it!

Actually a better capacity upgrade would be to have it so more services could stop there. Then you have HS2 services go on to Leeds, and LNER services to York and beyond, with people transferring to get where they need to be. That way you don't have to also upgrade further north.