Passenger compares himself to war criminal

[Striker]

To make the point that rail travel could be a lot worse, which makes the man look like an idiot (at the risk of looking like one myself).

Can't see the relevance of saying POW's had it much worse when he was specifically comparing himself to war criminals, not POW's.

 

[LE Greys]

Can't see the relevance of saying POW's had it much worse when he was specifically comparing himself to war criminals, not POW's.

Maybe I am an idiot. Time for me to stop digging my way out of the hole.
Goodnight

 

[O L Leigh]

You're making too much of it. The guy who made the statement in the first place clearly hadn't got a clue what he was talking about and said the wrong thing.

O L Leigh

 

[CarterUSM]

Hyperbole of a pretty high order.

 

[dk1]

You really haven't a clue have you. What on earth are you doing in a customer orientated job?

Im not, im up front. Wouldnt have the patience to listen to the moaning minnies. You will find most conductors let it go in one ear & out the other. Does anyone actually take the customer service thing that seriously. Smile & wave.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Talking of customer service though we often have a laugh about the late 70s & early 80s when you had lots of ex-freight staff who where shoved into front line & conductors duties due to the dwindling freight side of things. It was hilarious really. Many used to look like they had rolling around on the track & had no communication skills whatsoever. Often no ticket checks where done (they where used to remaining alone in the brake van). There was much rejection of using the new fangled PA systems at anytime let alone when the train was severely delayed. I even remember it took a local papers campaign to improve the lot for disabled passengers as those in wheelchairs would travel in the guards van. Often this was with no heat or windows clean enough to see through. It was just reguarded as the norm .

 

[Minstral25]

DK1 on the average train into London you are probably in the top 5/10% best paid on the train - yes there are a few Bankers who earn silly money but the vast majority don't.

I must state that Southern Staff are generally very pleasant to deal with and often friendly and helpful. But I bet they get grief from frustrated customers.

Last week my journey which is timetabled for around 1 hour - I didn't get to work once in less than two hours and only got home twice in less than 2 hours - that is very disappointing. It was made a lot worse by a lot of standing due to most trains being short formed. I know there are issues so have taken in my stride as have most commuters but if it keeps up we will all get angry.

O S Leigh - you ask why we cram into trains - it's OK when there is one two minutes behind like on the Jubilee line where I often let a train go through, but when it is 30 minutes to the next train to your specific destination - you need to get on.

And lastly - Southerners have it so bad - well yes we do but I suspect it is the same in most major cities in the UK (actually the world). It's no easier up North except from my limited experience one thing - it is possible to drive. For me to drive to work it takes about 2 to 3 hours in the rush hour of very stressful driving so it is not a real alternative and I'd prefer to leave the stress to you guys. Moving is not an option either.

 

[Nym]

Well, they should see what we have up North.

Down south you'd need bigger platforms, more inferstructure etc etc...

All we'd need on the Bolton Corridor to get overcrowding sorted is longer trains, the platforms can all take 6x23m, but regularly, morning peak services, where you can't see the end of the crowd on pt. 3 at Bolton, in comes a 2car cl150 or 4car 142. Only one or two appropriately sized trains run in the morning peak. The two 180s and a 185 from TPE thats doubled up.

I'd be looking to deploy 6 car units on:
Preston - Hazel Grove
Blackpool N - Victoria
Blackpool N - Airport
Lancaster - Airport
and 4 car units on (due to platform shortages on other parts of the network)
Wigan WG - Victoria
Southport - Victoria
Blackburn - Victoria

From the 6:30am off bolton, up to 11am, since the free travel for concessions came in after 9:30am, theres now two rush hours.

You wanna see 600+ pax trying to jam onto ONE cl150 due to unit failiure (more often than you'd think since our stock is old & knackered), then the remaining 400pax fitting onto a 3 car 185 that ran spare from the depot to pick everyone up.

Now, I don't know much about the Rochdale, Airport, Cheadle, Glossop, Manchester South East, Atherton or Huddersfeild corridors into manc, but the're proberbly quite similar.

And FYI, I have tried driving, or driving to a station, parking and getting the train from further up the line, if you leave after 7am, no chance for getting anywhere, if more parking where provided where needed (Horwich Parkway, Lostock, Stalybridge etc) then it would take cars off the road every morning. But, for the amount you're having spent down south on 20ft of tunnel, we could have a new terminating platform and 2000 space car park to take 2000 cars off the M61 every morning, increase fare revenue and fund more improvments, but does anyone want to join the dots of public and private transport, no, we have to walk to the bus that never turns up on time and costs MORE than the train to get to the train thats overcrowded ONLY due to the shortage of stock.

Southerners: QUIT YOUR F***ING MOANING!

 

[Legzr1]

Talking of customer service though we often have a laugh about the late 70s & early 80s when you had lots of ex-freight staff who where shoved into front line & conductors duties due to the dwindling freight side of things. It was hilarious really. Many used to look like they had rolling around on the track & had no communication skills whatsoever. Often no ticket checks where done (they where used to remaining alone in the brake van). There was much rejection of using the new fangled PA systems at anytime let alone when the train was severely delayed. I even remember it took a local papers campaign to improve the lot for disabled passengers as those in wheelchairs would travel in the guards van. Often this was with no heat or windows clean enough to see through. It was just reguarded as the norm .

Hilarious times (and in certain areas this still happened into the late 80's!).



These moaning buggers don't know how good they've got it

 

[jon0844]

O S Leigh - you ask why we cram into trains - it's OK when there is one two minutes behind like on the Jubilee line where I often let a train go through, but when it is 30 minutes to the next train to your specific destination - you need to get on.

If there's disruption, people will fear the next train may not run either - and that's why they'll force their way on no matter what. A short formed train doesn't mean all trains are going to go tits up, but many passengers don't think like that and go into panic mode.

Secondly, if there's a large gap in service then the next train now has whoever was on it plus all those who waited and may be impossible to get on too.. now you wait, what, another 30 minutes or until the rush hour is over in an hour or two?

I do wait myself, but I can check the status of the trains on my phone and see what's happening (and it's amazing to see how few people ever seem to consult their phone, even though there are countless ways to get live info, from the web or apps; maybe they should stop playing Angry Birds and buy the National Rail app for their phone?)

I travel often enough to have an idea of how busy a train might be, or if I can travel back to get on earlier and avoid problems (or indeed, get to KGX or Moorgate and sit on the train before it leaves). Fair enough at Liverpool Street on the same basis, but not anywhere along the line (so all that happens is the train gets crush loaded at its first stop). If it is bad, I can make a decision to go away and come back, so my wasted time is doing something a little more productive than standing on a station concourse.

In rush hour, if there's a 30 minute gap between services (as there is for me at King's Cross, at least untll the new timetable) then people really do not want to wait as they would for a tube train. One cancelled service or a short formed train can cause real problems. I doubt the industry can do much to change that, but they will have to accept the complaints that will seem rather out of context given the rare nature of such problems. By all means complain if your TOC is short forming trains all the time, but once or twice?

 

[atomicdanny]

Southerners: QUIT YOUR F***ING MOANING!

I really want to say something not nice about this comment but wont because it'll probably be ignored since I'm just another southern "moaner" :roll: ...

No offence but not every one in the south moans about this most of us just get on with it and travel...

 

[mumrar]

Last week my journey which is timetabled for around 1 hour - I didn't get to work once in less than two hours and only got home twice in less than 2 hours - that is very disappointing. It was made a lot worse by a lot of standing due to most trains being short formed. I know there are issues so have taken in my stride as have most commuters but if it keeps up we will all get angry.

So you're happy to choose an example from an extremely rare and cold set of weather, and the effects this has brought. Deliberately singling out last week for why you are disgruntled is exactly the same kind of hyperbole referred to in the OP. You state the drive to work would take 2-3 hours of stressful driving, and I take it this is any given day, as opposed to how long the journey would have taken by car last week?

 

[theblackwatch]

I do wait myself, but I can check the status of the trains on my phone and see what's happening (and it's amazing to see how few people ever seem to consult their phone, even though there are countless ways to get live info, from the web or apps; maybe they should stop playing Angry Birds and buy the National Rail app for their phone?)

Or perhaps the railway should supply more reliable information on destination boards so people know what's happening? As an example, at a local station only a couple of weeks ago, I had checked Live Departure Boards on my phone beforehand and saw the train I wanted to catch had left Leeds 6 minutes late, and was expected the same at my joining point. Howeever, the station screens claimed it was on time! Admittedly it was only 6 minutes, but it could easily have been more, and it gives the impression that whoever keeps these screens up to date doesn't care.

In rush hour, if there's a 30 minute gap between services (as there is for me at King's Cross, at least untll the new timetable) then people really do not want to wait as they would for a tube train. One cancelled service or a short formed train can cause real problems. I doubt the industry can do much to change that, but they will have to accept the complaints that will seem rather out of context given the rare nature of such problems. By all means complain if your TOC is short forming trains all the time, but once or twice?

In a lot of the country, a short formed train means no coaches rather than two! I remember when the LTS was known as the misery line, people were always moaning about it. When I was down there in the late 90s, I marvelled at how they ran such frequent services out of Fenchurch Street between 16.00 and 18.00 - if only we could have such frequency in the north! As you say, the odd short forming is hardly something to compalin about, it's much better than no train running at all.

 

[GarethW]

I'm just glad I live in SWT/Southern land, I'd hate to face XC every day, those Voyagers probably have the same sort of internal dimensions as a POWs escape tunnel.

 

[Sun Chariot]

I did say many, not all :roll:

You'll find that legal practitioner partners and investment bank traders don't constitute "many", out of Greater London's workforce. They represent a fraction of a percent of typical earners. For the rest of us, in real terms of cash left in our pockets, we're not by any means rich.

By way of example, my working week is split between offices by Paddington and by Heathrow. I pay nearly £2000 each month for a flat out beyond London City Airport.
My zones 1-3 Oyster is £1200 per annum and my commute varies between 1.5 and 2.5 hours each way, each day. On the occasions I do have a social life, beer in central London is typically £4+ a pint.

If I had a young family, I'd want to afford the space for them to live in and a safe quality of life for them to grow in. I'd have no option but to live a long way from London and to pay up several thousand pounds for the privlege of commuting. Road-travel into central London these days simply isn't practical or financially viable.

 

[scotsman]

Hyperbole of a pretty high order.

Jeremy Clarkson style hyperbole, although the little gem that made this comparison probably thinks he went there once...

 

[mumrar]

I pay nearly £2000 each month for a flat out beyond London City Airport.
My zones 1-3 Oyster is £1200 per annum and my commute varies between 1.5 and 2.5 hours each way, each day. On the occasions I do have a social life, beer in central London is typically £4+ a pint.

Whilst you may consider this badly off, you spend £24k a year on the apartment and £1.2k on travel. That's my yearly income (after lots of overtime and the deductions). But I have to fund accomodation, council tax, food and drink and heating and water and run a car, and any other bills associated with a wife, one child (3 years old, and a 2nd due any day). We do not have any benefits and the only thing not paid for by us is the cost of 15hrs nursery per week, which everyone gets for free. Despite this we still buy things for ourselves and our family, are looking forward to a good Christmas, and enjoy ourselves.

Money is what you make out of it, and the choices you make in life after all. This isn't a 'Woe is me' post, but a comparison the the post quoted.

 

[mindfeeder]

I'm just glad I live in SWT/Southern land, I'd hate to face XC every day, those Voyagers probably have the same sort of internal dimensions as a POWs escape tunnel.

Tell me about it!

I'd happily pay double my fare to travel on anything but a Voyager.

 

[Minstral25]

So you're happy to choose an example from an extremely rare and cold set of weather, and the effects this has brought. Deliberately singling out last week for why you are disgruntled is exactly the same kind of hyperbole referred to in the OP. You state the drive to work would take 2-3 hours of stressful driving, and I take it this is any given day, as opposed to how long the journey would have taken by car last week?

Well first - the snow and disruption was the week before, this week it has been cold (around freezing at night) but not disruptive weather.

Second - I started a thread the week before congratulating Southern for working miracles getting most people home on the Tuesday.

I am not disgruntled I was giving an example of despite how bad journeys can be by train it is much better by Train than car. in particular I was trying to say down south we have little alternative than travelling in overcrowded trains and hence the north get it a little better

 

[EM2]

By way of example, my working week is split between offices by Paddington and by Heathrow. I pay nearly £2000 each month for a flat out beyond London City Airport.

Er, why? If you work in West London, why live in East London? I'm sure you could find something of comparable quality, at a similar price and reduce your commute considerably.

 

[mumrar]

I am not disgruntled I was giving an example of despite how bad journeys can be by train it is much better by Train than car. in particular I was trying to say down south we have little alternative than travelling in overcrowded trains and hence the north get it a little better

I take it you've never been to Leeds then? People in the north are frequently wedged on to single car 153s and the awful 142s during rush hour, so I do think that after a long period of old EMU stock, the Southern and London area is doing very well to benefit from so much new stock and also new tube stock too.

 

[Mojo]

Er, why? If you work in West London, why live in East London? I'm sure you could find something of comparable quality, at a similar price and reduce your commute considerably.

You can get some very good properties in the Docklands for a reasonable price. I almost rented a flat in the Royal Docks, a nice modern area (but not much going on out there and a bit far away from stuff) as the price for a nice one bedroom was as much as a studio in West London or just south of the river.

 

[87015]

Perhaps it would help the business case for Northern 172s or whatever if the fare subsidies were removed and the money set aside to purchase/lease new/extra rolling stock?

 

[tinselworm]

He was transported in real cattle trucks several times, no seats and no heating in the middle of winter. In the summer, conditions were far worse than the Circle Line. He was also underfed and made to work for his captors, at least until he escaped.

I don't see that happening on Southern at the moment.

wouldn't it be great if it was though...

 

[The Decapod]

The passenger in question is confusing war criminals and prisoners of war. I suppose one is a prisoner in a moving train, since the doors won't open while it's moving, but apart from that the comparison is a bit silly.

 

[Lampshade]

Now, I don't know much about the Rochdale, Airport, Cheadle, Glossop, Manchester South East, Atherton or Huddersfeild corridors into manc, but the're proberbly quite similar.

Rochdale is chaos, especially this time of year. The Airport services in the evening peak are bedlam, Glossop is little better although you can actually move to get off the train. Local services from Stockport etc seem full but manageable. Can't comment on Atherton during the peaks but the off peak services seem quite full anyway; the 17:22 from Piccadilly to Southport leaves people behind at Piccadilly and Oxford Road regularly such is the overcrowding. The less said about Huddersfield the better, six car 185s are a necessity as opposed to a luxury.

 

[Sun Chariot]

...one child (3 years old, and a 2nd due any day).

Hope all goes well on that front for you and your wife, Matt.

I remember, when one of my friends was about to become a dad for the first time, I'd asked him: "so, are you keeping the sex a secret until the birth?".
"Of course not", he retorted, "everyone knows I'm the father"... :roll:


My last post - re: typical costs in London - was more for the benefit of our forum readers who've yet to discover the true cost of living first-hand. I agree that it's always a darn sight more expensive than we want it to be.

My choice of location was largely influenced by financial priorities whilst 7 months out of work, after my employing company went bankrupt. Ideally I'd move back to west London, to make the commute easier; but similar space to what I have out east would be almost twice as expensive.


EM2 - hope that answers your query as well. Mojo - yes, although the prices are hiking up fast now, it's still cheaper than west-side.

 

[Minstral25]

I take it you've never been to Leeds then? People in the north are frequently wedged on to single car 153s and the awful 142s during rush hour, so I do think that after a long period of old EMU stock, the Southern and London area is doing very well to benefit from so much new stock and also new tube stock too.

No, I know Leeds quite well. I did also point out that I think it is a universal problem not specific to North or South. We may have 8 car 319/377's on our route (we do even get one 12 car a day) but they are totally rammed from 6:30am to 9:30am and from 5pm until 7pm. I'm pretty sure the 319/377 doesn't really give you much more space per customer than a Pacer. It's about volumes of passengers - you are overcrowded on a Pacer and we in a 377 - and yes I have been left on the platform because I couldn't fit in the train fairly regular - even with 8 or 12 coaches - have you ever sprinted down a 8 coach train trying to find space to squeeze into??

The one advantage you do have (as I have done in Leeds) is to be able to get in a car and drive instead - we get seriously overcrowded roads, congestion charge and very few parking spaces. You do get some delay in the rush hour but no-where near as bad as London.

 

[mumrar]

Cheers for the best wishes. Due date is TOMORROW, but still no movement from the big bump. Our first was late by 12 days, but he's certainly not late to trains. At 3 he can identify all BR diesel locos and a few electrics, and has a scary handle on the modern EMU and DMUs, often distinguishing them by liveries as to which company they work for. HSTs and Voyagers are his favourite, but for those in the know steam wise, he can distinguish between a 'Brit' and the Duke of Gloucester, and between a Castle and a King too!!

 

[tbtc]

Indeed. If a restaurant worker said "damn those customers, why don't they eat at home or somewhere else?" they'd be shown the door instantly. If someone hates dealing with customers as much as that then they need to get a different job.

Spot on, Yorkie, spot on
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No, I know Leeds quite well. I did also point out that I think it is a universal problem not specific to North or South. We may have 8 car 319/377's on our route (we do even get one 12 car a day) but they are totally rammed from 6:30am to 9:30am and from 5pm until 7pm. I'm pretty sure the 319/377 doesn't really give you much more space per customer than a Pacer. It's about volumes of passengers - you are overcrowded on a Pacer and we in a 377 - and yes I have been left on the platform because I couldn't fit in the train fairly regular - even with 8 or 12 coaches - have you ever sprinted down a 8 coach train trying to find space to squeeze into??

The one advantage you do have (as I have done in Leeds) is to be able to get in a car and drive instead - we get seriously overcrowded roads, congestion charge and very few parking spaces. You do get some delay in the rush hour but no-where near as bad as London.

I appreciate that crowding occurs everywhere, but the frustrating thing "up north" is that it could be so easily solved here.

Around London you have twelve car trains and little scope for longer trains to fit onto platforms or additional paths. The London Underground is even harder to solve - there's no scope for services to be much more frequent or longer...

...however, I can't think of many stations in Yorkshire/ Lancashire that couldn't cope with longer trains (especially when you consider a Pacer is really only about 1.5 coaches long). It could be so so easily solved. Yet it isn't being and won't be anytime soon.