How can CrossCountry realistically be improved?

[Bletchleyite]

Sounds like the 755-esque solution would be a pretty smashing fit for this route some day.

Too much diesel running for the relatively small fuel tanks, I'd say. 80x would fit perfectly. Here's an idea - electrify the MML in full, transfer theirs on order to XC and get them new "pure" EMUs.

 

[Roast Veg]

Too much diesel running for the relatively small fuel tanks, I'd say. 80x would fit perfectly. Here's an idea - electrify the MML in full, transfer theirs on order to XC and get them new "pure" EMUs.

By the time it comes down to it, it might only be the Oxford-Coventry/Birmingham section with no electrification at all. Though that does presuppose quite a number of things.

 

[py_megapixel]

AWC to extend to Manchester using the 1 diagram saved off Glasgow by cutting short to Blackpool 1p4h and through reduction in Blackpool direct and North Wales diagrams

After the next timetable change there will already be 3 London services from Manchester every hour during the day - even more once HS2 opens. The last thing Manchester needs is more valuable capacity into Piccadilly taken up with yet another London service.

 

[HSTEd]

Too much diesel running for the relatively small fuel tanks, I'd say. 80x would fit perfectly. Here's an idea - electrify the MML in full, transfer theirs on order to XC and get them new "pure" EMUs.

Quite expensive compared to buying more 80x!

Although I think there isn't that much diesel operation on the Manchester-South Coast route.....

 

[JamesT]

Quite expensive compared to buying more 80x!

Although I think there isn't that much diesel operation on the Manchester-South Coast route.....

Railmiles reckons Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth is 250 miles. You've got wires as far as Coventry which is 96 miles. Another 17 miles for Didcot to Reading, but that's still the majority of the distance on diesel...

 

[HSTEd]

Railmiles reckons Manchester Piccadilly to Bournemouth is 250 miles. You've got wires as far as Coventry which is 96 miles. Another 17 miles for Didcot to Reading, but that's still the majority of the distance on diesel...

If a 755 can't manage 140 miles a couple of times a day on diesel then the railway has some serious problems.

And if a 755's outer (and thus conventional) bogies can take third rail shoes, the distance falls rather substantially doesn't it?

 

[Roast Veg]

And if a 755's outer (and thus conventional) bogies can take third rail shoes, the distance falls rather substantially doesn't it?

This is one of my suppositions above.

 

[Falcon1200]

Yes, but it requires twice the number of traincrew to 'know' the routes to Liverpool and Manchester, it requires a change to stabling arrangements or different empty stock workings, it requires a change in the timetable, it is a nuisance in times of disruption. The inward and outward workings don't match up at either Liverpool or Manchester because of the journey times.

None of those issues is insuperable, especially when the railway comes under unified overall direction.

It seems highly likely that both routes will stay 1tph in any case for the foreseeable future.

Last week, on a Thursday in November, I travelled on a middle of the day 9-car Manchester-Bournemouth train which was full and standing from Stoke to New St, so I would contend that restoration of two trains per hour between Manchester and Birmingham should be a priority - Albeit not by simply replacing one 9-car per hour with one 4-car and one 5-car !

 

[JonathanH]

None of those issues is insuperable, especially when the railway comes under unified overall direction.

Unified overall direction doesn't change the traincrew depots working specific stock or routes overnight though.

As I noted above, transferring the operation of LNR services north of Wolverhampton to XC using existing stock would be a helpful first step in allowing subsequent timetable changes for Liverpool and Manchester services from Birmingham. The complication is the Trent Valley stopper but if that goes to Avanti using 807s, WMR / LNR then have no interests north of the Birmingham commuter services. That then has the added benefit that all non-stop services from Euston to Milton Keynes are run by Avanti.

 

[A0]

Only if they added a few more turbos to the 170s, they are like running through treacle accelerating.

And only 100mph, compared to the 125mph Voyagers, which would have doubtless caused some other problems.

 

[The Planner]

And only 100mph, compared to the 125mph Voyagers, which would have doubtless caused some other problems.

You would be ok for a lot of it if they were faster off the blocks, and you could well make it back on dwells, otherwise it would be problematic.

 

[driverd]

And only 100mph, compared to the 125mph Voyagers, which would have doubtless caused some other problems.

You would be ok for a lot of it if they were faster off the blocks, and you could well make it back on dwells, otherwise it would be problematic.

I suspect you'd end up with some bother heading north of York on the ECML based on current timetables. Mind you, that's not to say that couldn't have been resolved if the timetable were originally built around 170s.

They're an interesting unit though, as they're 0-30 acceleration is shocking, but they somewhat redeem themselves in the higher range, despite feeling slow as heck. Based on experience of speed check points, they're generally very similar to 158s (despite feeling miles slower).

Glad to see so much consensus around 170s (or similar) being the more appropriate stock!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suspect you'd end up with some bother heading north of York on the ECML based on current timetables. Mind you, that's not to say that couldn't have been resolved if the timetable were originally built around 170s.

They're an interesting unit though, as they're 0-30 acceleration is shocking, but they somewhat redeem themselves in the higher range, despite feeling slow as heck. Based on experience of speed check points, they're generally very similar to 158s (despite feeling miles slower).

Glad to see so much consensus around 170s (or similar) being the more appropriate stock!

As XC don't operate local stopping services (other than those already using 170s), I'm not sure the acceleration is that much of an issue. A 350 will beat a Pendolino to about 80mph from a standing start, but that doesn't matter as Pendolinos don't operate local stopping services.

 

[adrock1976]

As I stated on the Manchester - Birmingham thread I believe that a following recast would be best suited to XC with other intercity operators stepping up in order to improve XC.

I would have the following:
1tph Liverpool - Southampton
(Marginal time extensions to Portsmouth)
1tph Manchester - Bristol
1tph Cardiff - Edinburgh
(Marginal time extensions in scotland)
1tph Newcastle - Plymouth
(Marginal time extensions to Penzance)

GWR to extend the Oxford - London to Moor St via Banbury and Solihull to provide more capacity and competition.

LNER to provide the Glasgow Central extensions using IETs so that it can be operated by larger capacity electric stock.

GWR to fill the Penzance shortfall

SWR to fill the Bournemouth shortfall

AWC to extend to Manchester using the 1 diagram saved off Glasgow by cutting short to Blackpool 1p4h and through reduction in Blackpool direct and North Wales diagrams

The Nottinghams would be covered by recast turbo star diagrams to create a fast to Nottingham and a slow stopper although this could be extended through to Oxford failing GWR not being able to provide the Moor St extension.

Bits in bold:

The London Pad - Oxford that runs in the opposite half hour to the Great Malvern/Hereford is planned at some point to be extended to at least Moreton-in-Marsh. Beyond there, there have been different versions of where to send it after MIM - one suggestion is to continue to Worcester Shrub Hill or Kidderminster!?, with Warwickshire County Council proposing it to continue to Stratford-upon-Avon with the missing bits of track reinstated at Honeybourne and Long Marston - Stratford-u-A. Of course, 2x 5 coach IETs could be used (subject to the maths working out) and couple/uncouple at Oxford.

Also, the competition bit: is this the M40 you are referring to being as that is the true competition between Oxford, Solihull, and Birmingham?

Regarding LNER/InterCity East Coast, it would be putting it back to how it was pre Eureka back in 2010/11, with links from south of the Clyde to Newcastle and Yorkshire being maintained.

 

[172007]

Bits in bold:

The London Pad - Oxford that runs in the opposite half hour to the Great Malvern/Hereford is planned at some point to be extended to at least Moreton-in-Marsh. Beyond there, there have been different versions of where to send it after MIM - one suggestion is to continue to Worcester Shrub Hill or Kidderminster!?, with Warwickshire County Council proposing it to continue to Stratford-upon-Avon with the missing bits of track reinstated at Honeybourne and Long Marston - Stratford-u-A. Of course, 2x 5 coach IETs could be used (subject to the maths working out) and couple/uncouple at Oxford.

Also, the competition bit: is this the M40 you are referring to being as that is the true competition between Oxford, Solihull, and Birmingham?

Regarding LNER/InterCity East Coast, it would be putting it back to how it was pre Eureka back in 2010/11, with links from south of the Clyde to Newcastle and Yorkshire being maintained.

Where is the source for Warwickshire Country Council wanting the extension from Stratford OA to Honeybourne. I say it as if Warks CC was truly bothered about anything rail the easy gains of Stratford OA to Birmingham trains via Dorridge would have Bearley and Claverdon as request stops.

 

[adrock1976]

Where is the source for Warwickshire Country Council wanting the extension from Stratford OA to Honeybourne. I say it as if Warks CC was truly bothered about anything rail the easy gains of Stratford OA to Birmingham trains via Dorridge would have Bearley and Claverdon as request stops.

The document from 2019 is at https://ask.warwickshire.gov.uk/com.../WRIS DRAFT for consultation 201934 FINAL.pdf

As the file is too large to attach, mention of Moreton-in-Marsh - Stratford-u-A are on Pages 39-42. Also, Warwickshire CC are also members of the North Cotswold Line taskforce.

 

[172007]

The document from 2019 is at https://ask.warwickshire.gov.uk/communities/draft-warwickshire-rail-strategy-2019-2034/supporting_documents/WRIS DRAFT for consultation 201934 FINAL.pdf

As the file is too large to attach, mention of Moreton-in-Marsh - Stratford-u-A are on Pages 39-42. Also, Warwickshire CC are also members of the North Cotswold Line taskforce.

Thanks, not seen that before.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The first thing is to restore some of the links that have been withdrawn because of Covid. Ever tried to make a recent journey from Sheffield to Oxford or Doncaster to Leamington? Journey times nearly doubled.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

The first thing is to restore some of the links that have been withdrawn because of Covid. Ever tried to make a recent journey from Sheffield to Oxford or Doncaster to Leamington? Journey times nearly doubled.....

I'd do Sheffield to Oxford via London, wouldn't even consider XC. Though the connection does seem to be rather poor if you did want to (58 mins wait at New St), so yes, I'd agree that should be sorted out even if the frequency is not increased.

Just how much demand is there for Donny to Leamington? I feel it might be quite a round number...

Though TBH I'd swap the branches over anyway - Manchester is probably more usefully connected to Bristol, the other route is more about intermediate journeys.

 

[Peterthegreat]

I'd do Sheffield to Oxford via London, wouldn't even consider XC. Though the connection does seem to be rather poor if you did want to (58 mins wait at New St), so yes, I'd agree that should be sorted out even if the frequency is not increased.

Just how much demand is there for Donny to Leamington? I feel it might be quite a round number...

Sheffield to St Pancras in 2 hours, Paddington to Oxford in an hour, 30 minutes (at least) between the two stations so at least 3 hours 30- possibly up to 4. Versus around 2 hours 30 by direct train.
Doncaster to Leamington may be a small number but there are literally hundreds of journeys of such journeys which no take much longer.

 

[gingertom]

And only 100mph, compared to the 125mph Voyagers, which would have doubtless caused some other problems.

the Flirt is a 125mph platform. For UK operation at 125mph we'd need enhanced crumple zones for the driving vehicles, reducing seating capacity, and higher % of powered bogies, which would require additional power pods. These extra power pods would eat into platform space, limiting capacity. Could be done, with the above caveats.

Big issue though is diesel range. That, combined with having to redesign the ends makes it an unlikely solution, favouring an 80x type of unit.

 

[Mogz]

the Flirt is a 125mph platform. For UK operation at 125mph we'd need enhanced crumple zones for the driving vehicles, reducing seating capacity, and higher % of powered bogies, which would require additional power pods. These extra power pods would eat into platform space, limiting capacity. Could be done, with the above caveats.

Big issue though is diesel range. That, combined with having to redesign the ends makes it an unlikely solution, favouring an 80x type of unit.

I’d love to see 755 derived FLIRTs (perhaps with a couple of extra coaches) on XC having experienced them in East Anglia.

The Power Pack car removes the under-floor rumbling when on diesel, they’re super accessible, good mix of tables and airline seats, the seats are comfortable (for a modern train), they line up with the windows, have emergency ventilation and you can have a buffet. What’s not to like?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’d love to see 755 derived FLIRTs on XC having experienced them in East Anglia.

The Power Pack car removes the under-floor rumbling when on diesel, they’re super accessible, good mix of tables and airline seats, the seats are comfortable (for a modern train), they line up with thr windows, have emergency ventilation and you can have a buffet. What’s not to like?

Low fuel capacity and a 110mph rather than 125mph top speed? Though I'm sure Stadler could do something suitable based on the Giruno rather than the FLIRT.

 

[Mogz]

Low fuel capacity and a 110mph rather than 125mph top speed? Though I'm sure Stadler could do something suitable based on the Giruno rather than the FLIRT.

Ah, I didn’t know that.

Note to self: do your research before making daft suggestions!

A bi-mode Giruno-derivative would certainly be nice though…

 

[gingertom]

Low fuel capacity and a 110mph rather than 125mph top speed? Though I'm sure Stadler could do something suitable based on the Giruno rather than the FLIRT.

125mph Flirts are in operation in Norway.

 

[irish_rail]

I’d love to see 755 derived FLIRTs (perhaps with a couple of extra coaches) on XC having experienced them in East Anglia.

The Power Pack car removes the under-floor rumbling when on diesel, they’re super accessible, good mix of tables and airline seats, the seats are comfortable (for a modern train), they line up with the windows, have emergency ventilation and you can have a buffet. What’s not to like?

Hmmm, I sampled a 745 a while back and found it awful, the ride was terrifying and the train felt very very commuter not long distance train at all. And, not that it matters, but flipping ugly!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hmmm, I sampled a 745 a while back and found it awful, the ride was terrifying and the train felt very very commuter not long distance train at all. And, not that it matters, but flipping ugly!

The ambiance is a bit 350/1, but I would be happy to do a journey of any length in a 350/1 so I'm good with that.

 

[driverd]

Hmmm, I sampled a 745 a while back and found it awful, the ride was terrifying and the train felt very very commuter not long distance train at all. And, not that it matters, but flipping ugly!

Glad someone agrees! I feel like I'd be a hounded off the forums for sharing my true opinions, but I must say I'm far from impressed with the flirts. General impression was "meh", although I was expecting something special it must be said, in part due to the hype they have received.

Personal gripes are:
1. The floor height changes looks awful and isn't super easy to navigate. Makes the train feel like a bus.
2. The interior is very disorientating and you loose track of where in the train you are.
3. The PIS screens weren't especially helpful.
4. Way too few doors. It's kind of articulated as per European trains to give low floor access, but it's totally unnecessary given the height of UK platforms.
5. Ride quality wasn't especially spectacular, on a par with most other newish trains. Was expecting something akin to a turbostar/HST, reality had more in common with Desiro/Civity.

For the first, third and fourth reasons (particularly the fourth) I'd say they're unsuitable for XC. A 110mph turbostar, Civity or AT200 platform would be far more appropriate to better meet the needs of XC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

4. Way too few doors. It's kind of articulated as per European trains to give low floor access, but it's totally unnecessary given the height of UK platforms.

It's possible to have two doors per section, as Merseyrail* and TfW are doing, and all the Swiss ones do. The choice of one is to be more commensurate with end-doored units for longer journeys/lower loadings. It's a modular platform, you can spec it any way you want - any window can be a door or vice versa. Poland for example has sets (and very nice they are too, though not so accessible) which are fully high-floor with stepped entrances. The Swiss Girunos (a 140mph version) have doors at two floor heights in the wheelchair-accessible coach.

It's not totally unnecessary given the height of UK platforms; they are the only stock that provides for wheelchair access without a ramp, and that should to me be mandatory. Those huge new fleets of 80x (much as I don't dislike them overall) and Aventras (neutral on those, really) with high floors have set acccessibility back over 30 years.

* These are technically Stadler METRO units but use the same basic components, and look like a FLIRT.

5. Ride quality wasn't especially spectacular, on a par with most other newish trains. Was expecting something akin to a turbostar/HST, reality had more in common with Desiro/Civity.

As I said I thought the general feel in Standard is very similar to a 350/1, which is fine by me, I've more than happily done very long journeys on those, including (once) Bletchley to Liverpool and back direct, taking over 4 hours.

Probably the one thing I don't like about them is the pattern on the windows (some sort of mobile phone signal enhancer, I believe) which to me affects the view a bit, but most people don't notice, I expect. It also isn't anywhere near as bad as the distortion you get on 323s. The escape windows are also a bit clunky and I think could have been done better.

 

[Purple Orange]

The only way XC journeys will be improved is when HS2 & NPR comes along, effectively ending the need for it at all. With Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds-Newcastle taking the northern & midlands IC traffic, and the introduction of Birmingham Moor Street to the South West, I see no reason to continue it in its current form.

Unrelated, but I’d also get rid of Liverpool-Nottingham, Liverpool-Glasgow and Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh via WCML.