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Umm unless the Network Code changes, the DfT and government have utterly no control as to whether certain service groups during an STP Informed traveller week during engineering works can be withdrawn or not. Its completely down to NR and the TOCs negotiating. And too be honest, I don't see this changing that much as changing the Network Code is like trying to get Jeremy Corbyn to join the Conservative Party.
Edit: The DfT as well just won't have the time or resources to be looking at what is going every weekend during engineering works in regards to service groups.
It needs to change is my point it has no relevance in the new world. GBR determine what services need to run and when it won't be the TOCs. The ORR may have to get involved if open access operators feel they are being disadvantaged by NR but fortunately we we have no open access operators down here!
Horley is served by Horsham / Peterborough and Gatwick / Bedford
When large delays happen - Gatwick / Bedford are the 1st to go. Is it the 9R Service Group?
In turn the HRH - - PBO services are forced to stop at Salford & Earlswood which pushes they lateness. Sometimes they will cull them : Three Bridges for turnaround incase really delayed.
It needs to change is my point it has no relevance in the new world. GBR determine what services need to run and when it won't be the TOCs. The ORR may have to get involved if open access operators feel they are being disadvantaged by NR but fortunately we we have no open access operators down here!
What different decision would GBR make though? Would they not also look at passenger numbers and decide on that basis?
GWR terminating at Redhill can be a right nuisance for everyone given the layout of Redhill Station and narrow passages / lifts available to change platform.
What different decision would GBR make though? Would they not also look at passenger numbers and decide on that basis?
GWR terminating at Redhill can be a right nuisance for everyone given the layout of Redhill Station and narrow passages / lifts available to change platform.
GBR will be responsible for specifying services and that will extend to what happens under disruption and engineering works so the concession operator will just deliver to that no need to argue over why their service should run outside of others. I accept that given it will be same people so its unlikely to change but that doesn't mean a new approach shouldn't be adopted.
Separately I agree Redhill isn't the best station (personally its was 80m very poorly spent imv on P0 and creates unnecessary extended walking distances with stopping points but thats for another thread!) but at least Northbound its possible to create cross platform transfer and signalling is flexible enough now to run a southbound via platform 2 on a reduced service weekend.
Because it wasn't the same possession last weekend. There was SLW going on all weekend between Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges meaning there were only 8tph running between Earlswood and Gatwick Airport so plenty of space for trains to stop at Earlswood. Next Saturday there are 15tph, a rather different story meaning there is no capacity for trains to stop at Earlswood and Salfords. And this Saturday, again GWR are running and cutting them back to Redhill is not a vaible option, as GWR are very very protective of their 1tph service through to Gatwick Airport.
Cutting GWR back to Redhill is a very contentious topic, and not one GWR are particularly fond of, which is why it rarely happens.
It happened the other Sunday where they were cut back to Redhill, save two late evening services but those had a half-hour wait at Gatwick Airport to head south towards Brighton.
Mostly the gap for a connecting service wasn't too bad.
Interesting that they aren't keen on cutting back to Redhill, yet in summer 2020, they didn't run any trains to Gatwick Airport.
As for the issue of 15tph. There is a solution, although I'm not being too serious, run 8tph like last weekend.
Talking of engineering works. I'm going to a concert in Kentish Town on Sunday 21 October and wondered about travelling back to Haywards Heath after. How we once the 21;52 leaves, which will be before the concert ends, there isn't a train until 23:17 and that could be up to an hour after the concert has finished! So I'll probably go back to Guildford. I don't know of the gap is related to the same engineering works, given it's Thameslink.
It happened the other Sunday where they were cut back to Redhill, save two late evening services but those had a half-hour wait at Gatwick Airport to head south towards Brighton.
Mostly the gap for a connecting service wasn't too bad.
Interesting that they aren't keen on cutting back to Redhill, yet in summer 2020, they didn't run any trains to Gatwick Airport.
As for the issue of 15tph. There is a solution, although I'm not being too serious, run 8tph like last weekend.
Talking of engineering works. I'm going to a concert in Kentish Town on Sunday 21 September and wondered about travelling back to Haywards Heath after. How we once the 21;52 leaves, which will be before the concert ends, there isn't a train until 23:17 and that could be up to an hour after the concert has finished! So I'll probably go back to Guildford. I don't know of the gap is related to the same engineering works, given it's Thameslink.
Its perfectly plausible to run 12TPH over Earlswood to Gatwick section with one train each half hour calling at Earlswood or Salfords last week 8TPH was limited by lack of platform capacity at Gatwick I believe.
What seems to be very frustrating about any engineering works in the Redhill/Earlswood area is that it comes with "service disruption" because for whatever reason, the amended timetable never seems to work in practice and causes delays. This to me seems like poor planning if the STP plan is bid and ultimately doesn't work.
Removing a service from stations when there is a two-track railway is not unheard of in other locations although obviously inconvenient.
Talking of engineering works. I'm going to a concert in Kentish Town on Sunday 21 September and wondered about travelling back to Haywards Heath after. How we once the 21;52 leaves, which will be before the concert ends, there isn't a train until 23:17 and that could be up to an hour after the concert has finished!
Slightly off topic but that is due to a gap in services from Kentish Town of over an hour, not because of a lack of trains to Haywards Heath. Probably one for the Northern Line or even a walk to St Pancras or West Hampstead. One of those ones where a switch in service provision causes a gap.
Then why have there been on numerous occasions delays which are attributed to "engineering works"? A timetable is planned but it doesn't work because the pathing seems to be causing "unexpected" impacts.
Then why have there been on numerous occasions delays which are attributed to "engineering works"? A timetable is planned but it doesn't work because the pathing seems to be causing "unexpected" impacts.
The Southern / Thameslink Twitter & NRE have on numerous occasions over past weekends said that delays are being caused by engineering works. To me, the only cause of that can be trying to squeeze too many trains into a reduced capacity network.
The Southern / Thameslink Twitter & NRE have on numerous occasions over past weekends said that delays are being caused by engineering works. To me, the only cause of that can be trying to squeeze too many trains into a reduced capacity network.
The Southern / Thameslink Twitter & NRE have on numerous occasions over past weekends said that delays are being caused by engineering works. To me, the only cause of that can be trying to squeeze too many trains into a reduced capacity network.
I would suggest as a regular user that some regulating decisions leave a lot to be desired with signallers seemingly just following the WTT running order. but maybe thats their remit unless the running controller instructs something different. With them using the single lead crossover at Earlswood Sth today there isn't much margin for late running but at times it would have been quicker just to have routed them via redhill.
Slightly off topic but that is due to a gap in services from Kentish Town of over an hour, not because of a lack of trains to Haywards Heath. Probably one for the Northern Line or even a walk to St Pancras or West Hampstead. One of those ones where a switch in service provision causes a gap.
I used to use the RER D line in the Paris region, which like Thameslink had some long and pretty unreliable routes. They had a number of timetable changes / recasts and I think signalling work too but in the end came to the conclusion that the routes were just too long and unwieldy. I've never really uderstood why Thameslink has been extended as far as it has, Gatwick / Sutton / Sevenoaks to Luton / Letchworth type journeys would seem to be make more sense and be a North- South compliment to Crossrail rather than something completely different.
It's admirable that a service is endeavoured to be provided but if the trains are running at over 100% capacity and the performance looks like this I'll pass! May as well do a complete closure and iron out the demand. There are many more closures to be endured south of East Croydon in the coming weeks and months
Ministral been using this line 32 years and its been an operational inconvenience to whoever has run it be it BR or GTR. The one positive is service provision to London has tripled off peak since i started commuting so its not so bad when it falls apart. With the good layovers on the 9R's we don't get the skip stopping we used to experience at the lesser used stations on the route. Its heyday was Connex 319's on CX-HRH very handy if you worked in the general offices!!
I think that's the first time I've seen Connex 319s referred to as the heyday! But yes it was much more reliable when you had six units trundling up and down, three to Charing Cross and three to Victoria (or London Bridge in later years).
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Also turning early to provide services to bigger stations instead of insisting train must get to Horsham to turn around, thus avoid skip stopping the Redhill route would help. Big stations after and including Gatwick are served by other faster services especially Crawley and Horsham which tend to place the bulk of their passengers on the Arun Valley trains not Thameslink
That just moves the problem down the line. The reliability of the service at Littlehaven and Ifield is already worse than when it was run by Southern. Which Southern trains will stop when Thameslink goes wrong is a lottery. Will it be the one five minutes before or 25 minutes after? Not a problem in the down direction because people can get off at Horsham and walk, take a taxi or get a lift, but people heading up need to know which train will stop.
Yesterday, Saturday 13, there were only 2 trains an hour from Haywards Heath to Bedford, rather than 4 and one was cancelled due to a shortage of drivers. No idea if more trains were running elsewhere, meaning most drivers were still working.
Hello all,
A good friend of mine travels from Horley to Redhill daily and often uses the above service however it is almost always late or cancelled does anybody have a reason for this?
It's admirable that a service is endeavoured to be provided but if the trains are running at over 100% capacity and the performance looks like this I'll pass! May as well do a complete closure and iron out the demand. There are many more closures to be endured south of East Croydon in the coming weeks and months
Without knowing if there was some other issue on the route causing delays, this is my point entirely; with engineering works TL / Southern simply seem incapable of running the planned service to time & without delays, a phenomenon that doesn’t seem to occur anywhere else. There must be some fundamental problem.
Without knowing if there was some other issue on the route causing delays, this is my point entirely; with engineering works TL / Southern simply seem incapable of running the planned service to time & without delays, a phenomenon that doesn’t seem to occur anywhere else. There must be some fundamental problem.
And 99% of the time it does perform well. Its literally only these last three weeks that there have been issues but there are specific circumstances that have caused that.
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It's admirable that a service is endeavoured to be provided but if the trains are running at over 100% capacity and the performance looks like this I'll pass! May as well do a complete closure and iron out the demand. There are many more closures to be endured south of East Croydon in the coming weeks and months
And 99% of the time it does perform well. Its literally only these last three weeks that there have been issues but there are specific circumstances that have caused that.
Without knowing if there was some other issue on the route causing delays, this is my point entirely; with engineering works TL / Southern simply seem incapable of running the planned service to time & without delays, a phenomenon that doesn’t seem to occur anywhere else. There must be some fundamental problem.
The rot set in years ago when Gatwick Express was extended through to Brighton. It never seemed to get a good run, at least it never did when I went for a ride on it. Whereas the old XX06 and XX36 from Victoria stopping at Clapham and Croydon used to fly along. I think there are simply too many trains now so none of them get a particularly good path.
It's much better now than the low point of summer 2018 but it still goes badly wrong sometimes. A major incident at Welwyn can result in no stopping trains to Horsham for two or three hours.
It's much better now than the low point of summer 2018 but it still goes badly wrong sometimes. A major incident at Welwyn can result in no stopping trains to Horsham for two or three hours.
This is a very relevant point and anytime it falls apart on ECML the HRH's seem to get abandoned. It ought to be straight forward enough to turn at London Bridge Ctl side but maybe a route knowledge issue especially with drivers Nth of the river.
... which was something raised on here at considerable length in the years leading up to 2018.
Namely in response to concerns about resilience during disruption, we were told it would be a simple matter to turn trains via King’s Cross or London Bridge.
In reality, whilst trains do find their way to King’s Cross (and presumably London Bridge) it’s very haphazard indeed.
The result of all this is it is quite possible to find gaps of several hours to certain destinations when there’s a disruption, and quite often lasting for the entire day especially if the disruption is from the early afternoon onwards.
The Cambridge route at least has alternative options for when things go pear shaped, Peterborough doesn’t.
Separately I agree Redhill isn't the best station (personally its was 80m very poorly spent imv on P0 and creates unnecessary extended walking distances with stopping points but thats for another thread!) but at least Northbound its possible to create cross platform transfer and signalling is flexible enough now to run a southbound via platform 2 on a reduced service weekend.
Agree - P0 has been an unmitigated disaster for passengers at Redhill. A useful convenient cross-platform connection abandoned for long platform changes along a difficult route meaning last minute platform changes are a nightmare and stopping points long distances from the subway.
Being a regular user of Saturday and Sunday trains from the Redhill lines I can say that this statement is totally wrong. Weekend STP planning is abysmal along the route. Regularly different services every weekend for over 2 years now, different train times mean confused passengers. Southern and Thameslink cannot be bothered to explain changes to passengers with proper communication relying on the "look at NRE" on a line that Monday to Friday is turn up and go. The poor STP planning is losing passengers to the railway.
That just moves the problem down the line. The reliability of the service at Littlehaven and Ifield is already worse than when it was run by Southern. Which Southern trains will stop when Thameslink goes wrong is a lottery. Will it be the one five minutes before or 25 minutes after? Not a problem in the down direction because people can get off at Horsham and walk, take a taxi or get a lift, but people heading up need to know which train will stop.
Littlehaven and Ifield combined have almost identical passenger numbers to Earlswood and Salfords (ELD/SAF) combined. Yet disruption is disproportionally constantly aimed at ELD/SAF to save the service at Littlehaven and Ifield which is reducing passengers numbers at ELD/SAF. Self-inflicted pain.
Realistically a better solution would be to timetable the split of the Arun Valley trains at Three Bridges on Sunday and the slow portion call at Littlehaven and Ifield on Sundays which will allow more flexibility about the Horsham Thameslink to ensure it can call at Earlswood and Salfords properly.
The real truth of the problem - not enough Thameslink Drivers based at Three Bridges, Redhill and Horsham. Personally although there are probably good reasons for not doing it, I'd close the Thameslink driver depot at Horsham and focus on decent numbers at Three Bridges to cover all the services, changing drivers at Three Bridges would also mean the service can turn early if necessary without the desperate need to get services to Horsham. I'd also have a depot at Redhill to ensure services can always run through there and terminate if necessary.
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I would suggest as a regular user that some regulating decisions leave a lot to be desired with signallers seemingly just following the WTT running order. but maybe thats their remit unless the running controller instructs something different. With them using the single lead crossover at Earlswood Sth today there isn't much margin for late running but at times it would have been quicker just to have routed them via redhill.
The single lead crossover has always part of the problem when planning engineering, it really should be double crossovers both there and at Salfords to ensure ease of recovery along the line and better planning.
I used to use the RER D line in the Paris region, which like Thameslink had some long and pretty unreliable routes. They had a number of timetable changes / recasts and I think signalling work too but in the end came to the conclusion that the routes were just too long and unwieldy. I've never really uderstood why Thameslink has been extended as far as it has, Gatwick / Sutton / Sevenoaks to Luton / Letchworth type journeys would seem to be make more sense and be a North- South compliment to Crossrail rather than something completely different.
It's a good point, though Bedford - Brighton is long established and thus should be retained. The new link to Cambridge is also a significant thing which needs retaining. I do question, however, whether having Thameslink as the only operator off-peak to certain stations (such as the local stations between Purley and Horsham) is a good plan though given it makes them very vulnerable to problems north of London. A metro-style service however would not travel such large distances and not be so prone to delays.
Perhaps a mix of the long-standing Bedford - Brighton (4tph) as the fast service, plus a semi-fast Cambridge to Gatwick (2tph) and then a metro-style Luton/Letchworth - Thameslink - East Croydon - Caterham/Coulsdon Town/Tattenham (8tph in total) would work, and return the local service south of Purley to Southern? It also focuses Thameslink on the East Croydon route south of London, which again will minimise knock-on delays as if Thameslink goes wrong, only the East Croydon route is affected and not Sevenoaks, Rainham, etc etc. The as-is Thameslink network seems very unwieldy compared to similar systems and seems like it needs simplifying.
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