What constitutes a "recognised route"?

[ajp222]

A relative has tickets (open return) from London St Pancras to Grantham. He needs to pick stuff up from our house - we can meet him at a station with it, but Grantham is a bit far. If I've understood correctly, open tickets allow for travel on any "recognised route" but I can't find out what that means.

Specifically, can he travel (in order of convenience for us):

1) London - Long Eaton - Grantham (ideally breaking journey at Long Eaton - and I assume you can break on an outward part too?) in both directions. I'm guessing he would have to get the Derby train from London, then from Long Eaton change at Nottingham to get to Grantham.

2) London - Nottingham - Grantham (again, ideally breaking journey).

On outward journey, "break" probably consists of getting off train, gathering together stuff, and then getting on the next one going in the right direction. On the return, "break" is a few days.

Thanks in advance,

Alison

 

[John @ home]

If I've understood correctly, open tickets allow for travel on any "recognised route" but I can't find out what that means.

Welcome to the forum, Alison!

The concept is of a "permitted route", rather than a "recognised route". A "permitted route" is defined in the National Routeing Guide, which is a very complex document. We'll help you here.

A relative has tickets (open return) from London St Pancras to Grantham.

Are you sure? London St Pancras - Grantham is not a "permitted route". Tickets to and from London are usually issued using "London Terminals" as the origin/destination instead of an individual terminus. A London Terminals - Grantham ticket is valid only by map ER, which shows it can be used to/from Kings Cross or Liverpool Street, not St Pancras.

If the ticket has already been purchased, can you tell us please what are the origin, destination and ticket type printed on the ticket?

Specifically, can he travel (in order of convenience for us):

1) London - Long Eaton - Grantham (ideally breaking journey at Long Eaton - and I assume you can break on an outward part too?) in both directions. I'm guessing he would have to get the Derby train from London, then from Long Eaton change at Nottingham to get to Grantham.

2) London - Nottingham - Grantham (again, ideally breaking journey).

On outward journey, "break" probably consists of getting off train, gathering together stuff, and then getting on the next one going in the right direction. On the return, "break" is a few days.

Not with a London - Grantham ticket, but once we know the answers to the questions above, we ought to be able to suggest an appropriate excess fare ticket to buy at modest cost which will turn the ticket into one which does allow these things.

 

[ajp222]

Sorry - force of habit. I always leave London via St Pancras.

It is actually Heathrow to Grantham, open return. Covers him for the tube as well (he's flying into Heathrow, which is why he has to pick stuff up from us).

Yes, has already been purchased.

Thanks again. Alison

 

[John @ home]

It is actually Heathrow to Grantham, open return. Covers him for the tube as well (he's flying into Heathrow, which is why he has to pick stuff up from us).

Thanks for the prompt response, Alison.

More questions, I'm afraid. The train companies stopped issuing tickets with the words "Open Return" printed on them a couple of years ago. Since then, the phrase has changed its meaning a little. It used to mean the most expensive, most flexible ticket, with no time restrictions at all. Now it tends to be used to mean a flexible or semi-flexible ticket as opposed to an Advance ticket which is restricted to the booked train(s) only.

I would expect a flexible Heathrow Underground - Grantham ticket to have one of these ticket types printed on it:

• Anytime
• Off-Peak
• Super Off-Peak
• Off-Peak Day
• Weekender

Are you in a position to tell us which it is? Is the route description "+ Any Permitted"?

 

[ajp222]

OK, I've found the return portion (tickets were posted to my address by a third party, and I had to send the outward portion on to him).

Ticket says:

STD ANYTIME R
From GRANTHAM * To HEATHROW UNDERD (so I assume would be reverse on outward)

Route; A "dagger" symbol, then EC & CONNECTNS

Alison

 

[John @ home]

Thanks, Alison. I suspect the answer may be to excess the ticket to a Heathrow - Newark return. I'm on my mobile at present and will be able to confirm costs and validity when I get to my desktop in 2 or 3 hours.

 

[cuccir]

OK, I've found the return portion (tickets were posted to my address by a third party, and I had to send the outward portion on to him).

It's worth noting that technically "The outward part of an Anytime Return ticket is only valid for travel when accompanied by an unused return part of the same ticket" (from the ticket terms and conditions). I don't want to worry you as the chances of a guard asking to see the return portion as well are next to none but if you can - that is, don't if your relative is flying from outside the UK and thus posting would be very expensive/you run the risk of the letter going missing - it would be worth posting the return portion on as well. If this isn't practical then I wouldn't worry as this is a technicality as much as anything else and the circumstances in which a guard might ask to see the return portion are rare!

--
A few further comments:

A ticket to Newark would indeed be valid via Long Eaton and Nottingham (for the routeing guide people to check this: via maps SY + DG) . However, I'd have thought that your relative might need both portions to do the excess - someone else may be able to confirm this?

On outward journey, "break" probably consists of getting off train, gathering together stuff, and then getting on the next one going in the right direction. On the return, "break" is a few days.
Alison

A break of journey is only valid overnight and then only if you resume travel by 12:00 the next day

 

[hairyhandedfool]

An Anytime Return is valid for outward travel within five days and return within one calender month, including break of journey overnight (or over several nights).

If you break your journey overnight on the last day on the return, you must complete your journey by 1200 the next day, but with no more breaks after 0230.

 

[ajp222]

Thank you very much for all the responses.

I wasn't aware of the "must have both portions" issue - I deliberately only posted one part as it was being sent to a hotel in Spain (run by a someone who spoke neither Spanish nor English very well) for collection en route and the address details were a little vague, to say the least. It felt "safer" to only send the bit we felt he needed!

I'm not going to be able to get part 2 to him in time - he lands tomorrow morning. I will pass all the information on to him. If all else fails, he will simply have to get a return ticket from Grantham to Nottingham (or Long Eaton) - time isn't an issue, we were just trying to keep cost to a minimum.

Alison

 

[MikeWh]

The only time you are likely to need to show the return portion is if you are using the outward portion on a day other than the first day of validity. As it doesn't look like that applies to you I really don't think it will be a problem. In the extremely unlikely event that someone does ask, I would hope that the truthful explanation that you didn't want to send more than was necessary overseas would suffice, especially as the ticket clearly starts from Heathrow.

 

[John @ home]

A ticket to Newark would indeed be valid via Long Eaton and Nottingham (for the routeing guide people to check this: via maps SY + DG).

This is correct. A £122 Heathrow - Grantham Anytime Return can be excessed to a £140 Heathrow - Newark Anytime Return by paying the £18 difference at any main station such as Kings Cross or St Pancras prior to deviating from the permitted route.

A break of journey is only valid overnight and then only if you resume travel by 12:00 the next day

This is not correct (it is an incomplete summary of Off-Peak ticket rules on the last day of validity). hairyhandedfool has stated the correct position in post #8.

we were just trying to keep cost to a minimum.

Using expensive Anytime returns is unlikely to be the best way to keep cost to a minimum. If a company is paying for the Heathrow - Nottingham ticket, there may be no practicable alternative. But if this is paid from personal funds, tell us as much as possible about likely travel times and dates and we'll advise on achieving minimum cost.

This may involve buying new cheaper tickets and sending both parts of the unused Anytime return for a refund (it would be refunded in full minus a £10 admin fee).

 

[ajp222]

It was indeed a "company", in the sense that it is arranged travel for a particular purpose. I won't bore you with the details, but we had no choice about the original tickets.

The personal expense is any additions/changes we need to make, due to the need to collect kit. That's the bit we're trying to keep down if we can. Thank you all once again.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

John, the ticket is to Grantham, not Nottingham, this would make a return excess 29 pounds (?).

I rather suspect that to do that would need both portions of the ticket to be present though, but that may depend on the clerk on duty and what side of the bed they got out of.

 

[John @ home]

the ticket is to Grantham, not Nottingham

Agreed. Sorry about that error. I have edited post #11.

this would make a return excess 29 pounds.

Would it? NFM07 CD is showing:

SOR HEATHROW UNDERGD - GRANTHAM         route + ANY PERMITTED £122.00
SOR HEATHROW UNDERGD - NEWARK STATIONS  route + ANY PERMITTED £140.00

I have just noticed that a single between Grantham and Long Eaton is only £8.60, so it may be better to use the Anytime Return as printed and just buy a couple of Grantham - Long Eaton singles.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well, I only had a quick look in the FRPP earlier so I might have read it wrong, but the London-Grantham rte EC & Connections SOR was £103. My, admittedly hasty, look at the Heathrow Undergd extention suggested it was £4 each way, thus £111 in total. but as I said I wasn't exactly reading it through thoroughly so may be wrong.

 

[cuccir]

A break of journey is only valid overnight and then only if you resume travel by 12:00 the next day

This is not correct (it is an incomplete summary of Off-Peak ticket rules on the last day of validity). hairyhandedfool has stated the correct position in post #8.

Ah yes, I apologise to the original poster - just me being dozy there.