Passengers not routinely offered cheaper tickets.

[Starmill]

Do the new machines still offer some rangers (GM Wayfarer/Rail Ranger etc?) or have they disappeared with the new journey planning software?

I didn't see them I'm afraid. I'm not certain they don't sell them, mind.

 

[alistairlees]

Thought that the Manchester -> London Terminals "Any Permitted" tickets were usually always slightly more expensive than "via Chesterfield" routed tickets, this when comparing the exact same ticket type.

The "Any Permitted" Off-Peak Single and Off-Peak Return are both much cheaper than their equivalents "via Chesterfield"; though there is a Super Off-Peak Return "via Chesterfield" that is cheaper (slightly). Given that restriction codes also differ it is not a straightforward comparison...

 

[Starmill]

Thought that the Manchester -> London Terminals "Any Permitted" tickets were usually always slightly more expensive than "via Chesterfield" routed tickets, this when comparing the exact same ticket type.

Exact comparisons aren't available because there's no Off Peak Single on route Chesterfield and no Super Off Peak Return unrouted.

However, the urouted Off Peak Single is significantly cheaper than the Super Off Peak Single on route Chesterfield.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Thought that the Manchester -> London Terminals "Any Permitted" tickets were usually always slightly more expensive than "via Chesterfield" routed tickets, this when comparing the exact same ticket type.

What matters for Routeing Guide purposes are the fares that applied in September 1996 (NFM64).

At that point, the Standard Open Return (SOR) was £98 and the First Class Open Return (FOR) was £140 on both routes if memory serves.

 

[hkstudent]

Today's experience:

Me: “I’d like a period return CRE-EUS with senior railcard travelling on 12:33 outward please”

Booking office clerk: “That will be £56.75”

Me: “You can do better than that I think . Are you telling me your software doesn't show you the best fares?”

Clerk: “That is the best fare ”

Me: “Who sets the software up to say what the price is?”

Clerk: “This is the country wide software”

Me: “That’s just the way it is, you don't control it?”

Clerk “No. Why what have you seen?”

Me: “If you go on the 12:33 you can get a super off peak return for £22:80 ”

Clerk: “I haven't got it...”

Me: “Ummm... Your colleague found it eventually, previously when I was here ”

Clerk shows me the main screen then the detailed list next screen... scrolling down finds £29.70.

Me: “£29.70? That's off peak.”

Scrolls down further...

Clerk: “£22:80 super off peak”

Found it after 2 min 44 sec. Well it seemed like 5 minutes.

Haha, that's also some of my occasions for killing the "boring work hours" of my local station staffs, especially when going into the area of Super Off-peak hours where Southeastern metro area does not really have such a complicated time restriction rule.

 

[island]

What matters for Routeing Guide purposes are the fares that applied in September 1996 (NFM64).

At that point, the Standard Open Return (SOR) was £98 and the First Class Open Return (FOR) was £140 on both routes if memory serves.

I understood that the NFM64 fares were only invoked if one wished to determine the appropriateness of a Routeing Point where the start and/or end stations are not Routeing Points themselves, rather than to determining whether a ticket might be used on a cheaper alternative route. But you're definitely better informed than me

 

[Bletchleyite]

I understood that the NFM64 fares were only invoked if one wished to determine the appropriateness of a Routeing Point where the start and/or end stations are not Routeing Points themselves, rather than to determining whether a ticket might be used on a cheaper alternative route. But you're definitely better informed than me

That was my understanding too (technically a zero fare excess needed but the railway can't be bothered), but it isn't relevant to this case because it is a mapped Permitted Route anyway, not just because of it being cheaper.

A routed fare being more expensive does not invalidate a Permitted Route. There are a few examples of this, many involving XC, where the routed fare is basically pointless.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I understood that the NFM64 fares were only invoked if one wished to determine the appropriateness of a Routeing Point where the start and/or end stations are not Routeing Points themselves, rather than to determining whether a ticket might be used on a cheaper alternative route. But you're definitely better informed than me

My mistake. NFM64 fares do indeed only come into play to determine "appropriate" routeing points if required.

I clearly added two and two and got five when making my previous post!

An "Any Permitted" ticket is always valid via a named route providing the relevant specifically routed fare is cheaper. (Subject to any relevant time restrictions).

 

[tornado]

Just out of interest how is experience of the end-to-end ride for this ticket? The trains don't look particularly comfortable to be stuck in for nearly 2.5 hrs. If it was me I'd probably just swallow the difference and go with a pendolino.

 

[185143]

Just out of interest how is experience of the end-to-end ride for this ticket? The trains don't look particularly comfortable to be stuck in for nearly 2.5 hrs. If it was me I'd probably just swallow the difference and go with a pendolino.

Pleasant enough unless a 350/2 rocks up!

 

[Starmill]

Just out of interest how is experience of the end-to-end ride for this ticket? The trains don't look particularly comfortable to be stuck in for nearly 2.5 hrs. If it was me I'd probably just swallow the difference and go with a pendolino.

If you have a train with the refurbished interior (pictured in the link below) arguably it's as good as or better than a 'Pendolino'.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pCWM3JRy...CLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/50094877656_680f24722e_b.jpg

The trouble is as noted above that there's a subclass that have awful narrow seats with no armrests or tables and 3+2 seating.

LNR times between London and Crewe are typically 2h 05 southbound and 2h 20 northbound.

 

[AM9]

Pleasant enough unless a 350/2 rocks up!

350s are probably the best non-end doors EMUs in service at the moment so their operating on a Euston to Crewe diagram is appropriate.

 

[allotments]

Just out of interest how is experience of the end-to-end ride for this ticket? The trains don't look particularly comfortable to be stuck in for nearly 2.5 hrs. If it was me I'd probably just swallow the difference and go with a pendolino.

Avanti services can be very cramped when busy and even on quieter trains there's usually nowhere to fit a folded bike in a luggage rack. Full size bikes are even more trouble, requiring a reservation and - on Pendolinos - assistance to load the bike into a cycle storage area.

I strongly prefer the spacious double doorways on LNWR 350s which have an open area with folding seats near the accessible toilet. I rarely have to fold the bike. Just don't put your lunch on the folding table when the train traverses points at speed because you'll be picking it up off the floor.

 

[tornado]

Ok, interesting. Certainly the one in the photo looks pleasant enough.

Is it possible to predict which rolling stock will be used for a specific service?

 

[Starmill]

Ok, interesting. Certainly the one in the photo looks pleasant enough.

Is it possible to predict which rolling stock will be used for a specific service?

Unfortunately not really.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just out of interest how is experience of the end-to-end ride for this ticket? The trains don't look particularly comfortable to be stuck in for nearly 2.5 hrs. If it was me I'd probably just swallow the difference and go with a pendolino.

In my eyes a 350 is substantially more comfortable than a Pendolino unless a /2 shows up. Better seats, bigger windows, better window alignment.

Even /2s aren't that bad provided they aren't full. Legroom in the facing bays is excellent, for example.

 

[tornado]

Potentially the following could work as a cheaper WCML journey from London to Glasgow:
5.46pm-8.03pm LNWR to Crewe
8.09pm-11.17pm Avanti
But then for a similar total time+price one could take a LUMO+ScotRail!

 

[185143]

350s are probably the best non-end doors EMUs in service at the moment so their operating on a Euston to Crewe diagram is appropriate.

I strongly agree.

But the 350/2s specifically are totally unsuitable with their cramped 3+2 seats, no tables or plug sockets. The post refurb /1s, /3s and /4s are all lovely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I strongly agree.

But the 350/2s specifically are totally unsuitable with their cramped 3+2 seats, no tables or plug sockets. The post refurb /1s, /3s and /4s are all lovely.

For individual travellers. Families really like them because the facing bays are the closest thing you will get to a family car on the rails.

 

[185143]

For individual travellers. Families really like them because the facing bays are the closest thing you will get to a family car on the rails.

I knew you were going to say that

 

[allotments]

On today's 18:33 CRE-EUS...

350s have this much open space:
attached photo shows full size folding bike fully loaded with panniers beside the accessible toilet and wide doorway.

If space is needed for other passengers, bike can be folded. However instead of folding, it is much easier to stay with the bike in the door area. On this journey depending on station stop, doors open different sides, so swap sides accordingly.

 

[JamesT]

On today's 18:33 CRE-EUS...

350s have this much open space:
attached photo shows full size folding bike fully loaded with panniers beside the accessible toilet and wide doorway.

If space is needed for other passengers, bike can be folded. However instead of folding, it is much easier to stay with the bike in the door area. On this journey depending on station stop, doors open different sides, so swap sides accordingly.

I don’t see the hinges I’d normally expect on a folding bike, it looks more like a standard hybrid commuter bike.

 

[allotments]

I don’t see the hinges I’d normally expect on a folding bike, it looks more like a standard hybrid commuter bike.

Attached photo arrows highlight lockjaw allen bolts on Dahon Cadenza frame.

You wouldn't be one of the platform staff at Euston who used to chase me up the platform when boarding an Avanti service then？

I recall once being challenged 3 times on boarding one train (1) OK at the ticket check (2) rudely shouted at from behind half way up the platform (3) abruptly knocking on window and chased into train after boarding as I was in the process of folding the bike. All this on an empty train during lockdown.

That doesn't happen any more because I choose LNWR.

 

[allotments]

EMR ticket vending machine at St Pancras failed to offer LNWR only super off peak return EUS-CRE when I specified 12:46 departure period return.

Attached image shows available ticket types on TV user interface.

Cheapest ticket offered was LNWR only off peak return £7 more expensive. Super off peak is valid on 12:46.

EMR TVM interaction aborted

Adjacent Thameslink booking office duly obliged to supply super off peak

Mis-selling reported to EMR awaiting response.

How many customers are being overcharged?

 

[allotments]

Ticket vending machines (TVMs) operated by multiple train operating companies are mis-selling LNR/WMT only period open return tickets for a journey such as 12:46 EUS-CRE by failing to show the cheapest super off peak fare. The "cheapest ticket" offered is off peak even if a customer specifies a precise departure time for which super off peak is valid.

Attached screenshot of TVM after selecting "cheapest ticket".

TVM software appears to be the same on affected machines operated by EMR, Great Northern, TfW for example.

Sales data presumably exists to determine how frequently this has occurred.

Customers who may have been mis-sold a more expensive ticket than necessary based on data entered could be refunded via the debit card used (if payment was not cash). Is that feasible?

Who maintains the dataset used by TVMs to display available fares? This needs to be corrected.

Is this the tip of an iceberg？ Are other cheapest fares not being offered？

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think on the non-planner UIs this happens because the dedicated ticket type LNR use for these (OPR rather than SSR) has not been added to a list somewhere.

On planner UIs it's often because of the unimplementable restriction easement that states "a connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" which has been an issue for 10+ years now.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Do they sell Advance?

 

[JonathanH]

Is this the tip of an iceberg？ Are other cheapest fares not being offered？

I couldn't buy a super off-peak day travelcard from Gatwick Airport on the TfW machines at Newport (South Wales) last week. Admittedly this ticket is only available at the weekend but I was attempting to purchase it on a Saturday.

 

[mikeg]

I can understand why they want to go for journey planners, however why don't they also have an 'i just want to buy my damned ticket' mode for those who know exactly what they want?
Best of both worlds then.

 

[JonathanH]

I can understand why they want to go for journey planners, however why don't they also have an 'i just want to buy my damned ticket' mode for those who know exactly what they want?
Best of both worlds then.

Using a journey planner interface exerts a certain amount of control by the operator on passengers buying a ticket valid for the train they wish to travel on.