Snow Hill Lines - Where would the logical start point for electrification be for a Phase 1?

[bussnapperwm]

I was having a think of this and if things got so bad emissions wise that Andy Street demanded that the government started electrifying the Snow Hill lines in Brum, where would the logical place to start the first phase of it be?

For me I would ask, would Smethwick to Stourbridge be the logical start point of wiring the Snow Hills? (Thus providing a chance for when the Smethwick to Snow Hill/Moor St bit gets started, trains can run into city still, albeit New Street when the Snow Hill to Smethwick is closed) or would Stratford to Birmingham be a better first option?

The reason I thought of Smethwick to Stourbridge was mainly as the wires can then link to the existing electrics at Smethwick

 

[Bertie the bus]

I don't think it would really matter where they started as it is very unlikely they would start using EMUs until the wires reached the centre of Birmingham so even if they did run Stourbridge services into New St they would do it using 172s.

 

[Nova1]

I mean realistically you'd start with a larger project to electrify the Chiltern Main Line. Electrify the line all the way to Birmingham Snow Hill, then maybe continue down to Stourbridge Junction (this would cover the majority of the suburban services). I suppose as soon as possible you'd also need to electrify down to Stratford-Upon-Avon.

I suppose the bare minimum you could get away with would be Stourbridge Junction to Whitlocks End and then also to Dorridge (these are where most of the frequent services terminate).

I suppose one of the main barriers will be electrifying all the weird junctions.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I just have this feeling that they will start at Marylebone and not at the Brum end sorry.

 

[birchesgreen]

The best bet would be to electrify Marylebone out to... Denham maybe to cover the London area, replace the Chiltern fleet with new bi or tri-modes (also do Amersham to Aylesbury VP). Next do Stourbridge Jn to Dorridge. Thereafter begin filling in as money allows.

 

[bluenoxid]

Also depends what the cause is of the air pollution. Is it acceleration away from stations, enclosed spaces, sitting in the platform, etc. There are lots that can be done before sticking masts in.

Examples would include improvements to ventilation, changing driving styles, investigating shore supply at stations where trains terminate and placing batteries on the trains and operating geo-fencing through the worst areas.

 

[The Planner]

I just have this feeling that they will start at Marylebone and not at the Brum end sorry.

Doubt it, I would suggest you lose more 172s at the West Mids end than units at the London end.

I have said on other threads that it would be Stratford/Leamington to Kidderminster (not Hatton - Bearley, that will be way down any list). Worcester is the fly in the ointment as you won't want to touch that until it is known what the resignalling and remodeling does, and we are still a way from that.

 

[Dave W]

Would there be a significant need to wire all the way to Worcester, with most trains turning at Kiddy or Stour? (Genuine question, not a RUK classic framed-as-a-question assertion )

Where are the difficulties (aside from finding the cash!)? I foresee Old Hill tunnel causing bother, and would it spur rationalisation of the railway land around places like Langley?

 

[bussnapperwm]

Doubt it, I would suggest you lose more 172s at the West Mids end than units at the London end.

I have said on other threads that it would be Stratford/Leamington to Kidderminster (not Hatton - Bearley, that will be way down any list). Worcester is the fly in the ointment as you won't want to touch that until it is known what the resignalling and remodeling does, and we are still a way from that.

That's why to be fair the Brum end would be best to start on any Chiltern electrification, allows a load of replacements for 150/153 units. Maybe also a home for 350/2s...

Would there be a significant need to wire all the way to Worcester, with most trains turning at Kiddy or Stour? (Genuine question, not a RUK classic framed-as-a-question assertion )

Where are the difficulties (aside from finding the cash!)? I foresee Old Hill tunnel causing bother, and would it spur rationalisation of the railway land around places like Langley?

There's Droitwich and Hartlebury that's served by Snow Hill trains (admittedly Droitwich could be served by Bromsgrove bound trains, which leaves Hartlebury.

Plus logically, would you leave Bromsgrove to Droitwich out of any electrification project if the section between Kiddy and Worcester was being done.

I suppose it could allow Worcester to Malvern to be dropped off the Snow Hills.

It would be interesting to see how they'd go about Old Hill and Sbow Hill tunnels. I think they'd be two different blocks on their own. Although didn't they use AC overhead rail on one electrification project for a tunnel section or was I dreaming that?

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I just have this feeling that they will start at Marylebone and not at the Brum end sorry.

There's no point in starting at Marylebone except as part of a project to electrify the entire route to Snow Hill. Chiltern's receipts from London suburban travel are minimal. Much of their revenue comes from middle distance journeys such as Oxford Parkway to Marylebone or Leamington Spa to Moor Street plus a great deal from commuters to Birmingham from places like Solihull.

 

[HSTEd]

I think the scheme would likely be determined by electrical supply considerations - given the enormous cost of the grid supply points for 25kV, or the still significant costs of static frequency convertersto avoid them.

Is HS2 to be operated permanently by a seperate operator to the rest of the network (so concessions can be sold a la HS1) or by Network Rail/GBR?

If the latter then the enormously powerful 25kV installation on HS2 could likely support the Chiltern Lines without any grid points whatsoever.....

At which point I think the case for starting at the Birmingham end becomes not terrible......

 

[mr_jrt]

I just have this feeling that they will start at Marylebone and not at the Brum end sorry.

Why not start at both ends and meet in the middle?

 

[The Planner]

Why not start at both ends and meet in the middle?

Which will be the way its done I suspect.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Why not start at both ends and meet in the middle?

Which will be the way its done I suspect.

Great - that would be my ideal.

 

[Mikey C]

Why not start at both ends and meet in the middle?

Exactly. Get both ends done, so short distance commuter routes at both ends can be converted first. Then continue to do the middle, and the western part of EWR

 

[Class172]

I have said on other threads that it would be Stratford/Leamington to Kidderminster (not Hatton - Bearley, that will be way down any list). Worcester is the fly in the ointment as you won't want to touch that until it is known what the resignalling and remodeling does, and we are still a way from that.

If anything electrify Kiddy-Stratford/Leamington as you suggest and continue to run the Worcester services with 172s. As far as I'm aware the Worcester-Dorridge/Whitlocks End diagrams are relatively self-contained and essentially form the semi-fast services through the core Snow Hill Lines, so working between electric services shouldn't be an issue.

 

[cle]

The commuter routes are the ones to benefit most (most stops, frequent, urban areas re noise and pollution) and so both ends makes sense.

It also depends on if Didcot-Oxford is done sooner, and what might proliferate from that, i.e. up to Banbury and Coventry, or Snow Hill. But also if continuing to Marylebone (and/or Bletchley) might spur on some continuations. Plenty of options.

The Birmingham patterns and network is a little more complex, with various branches and lower frequencies on the southern edges, with overlapping/extensions on the Kidderminster end. And what to do about the Stratford routes.

Whereas Marylebone to High Wycombe/Oxford is linear and immediate opens up 4tph minimum. And hits wires (we hope) at Oxford - plus covers off a stretch of EWR.