RMT Ballot Avanti West Coast Members For Strike Action

[Donny85]

When I've travelled first class on Great Western and also East Midlands, when catering crew come around with the trolley they have always asked to see tickets of everyone in carriage before issuing the complimentary items. Unsure if that is what they are meant ro do, but it works, why can't Avanti catering hosts do that as well?

No reason I can think of.

 

[the sniper]

The other option is to cut services and jobs. Rather that?

That's the alternative to transitioning from expensive to maintain, paper based legacy systems to an electronic device with a one off briefing/payment to smooth the transition?

Agreed. But the reason for the proposed action isn’t specifically one single item of these reasons but a combination thereof and more. It’s a failure to agree between union and management

But this is far more tantalising.

 

[LowLevel]

At what point do you draw the line though? A work phone or iPad issued for the purpose of work should not be charged at home at the employees expense.

If you wear a uniform you are able to claim a small tax reduction to essentially cover the costs of cleaning it, why should using a device by work issued for using solely at work be any different?

If it's anything like my TOC they say that you are welcome to use your work phone for reasonable personal use, provided you don't use it for premium rate calls and they request that you don't have it as your sole telephone, which seems fair enough to me.

 

[londonteacher]

The entitlement of some people who work in the railway on this thread is ridiculous.

If I got paid as a teacher every time the DfE introduced something new or things changed, I would be a millionaire!

 

[BayPaul]

The entitlement of some people who work in the railway on this thread is ridiculous.

If I got paid as a teacher every time the DfE introduced something new or things changed, I would be a millionaire!

Quite! Reading this thread makes me wonder if anyone who works for the railway has any idea that their industry is so completely different to real life.
And personally, I prefer the real world, where I'm happy to provide a bit of electricity, some paper, and some time to do covid tests to my employer, rather than having a relationship with them where I'd consider asking for money for any of these. Weird!

 

[the sniper]

Quite! Reading this thread makes me wonder if anyone who works for the railway has any idea that their industry is so completely different to real life.
And personally, I prefer the real world, where I'm happy to provide a bit of electricity, some paper, and some time to do covid tests to my employer, rather than having a relationship with them where I'd consider asking for money for any of these. Weird!

Most people on the railway now came from jobs where they were just expected to do things for free. I'm sure your employer appreciates your attitude and will kindly not offer any additional payment or pay increases for your efforts.

 

[Efini92]

I wouldn't cross a picket line, I'm no lefty or strongly pro union but I just couldn't cross one on principle. But seeing you write that voting no on the ballot is 'weak' actually makes me question myself. I don't think your view is typical of union members, but if it was , it would form a very good reason to never respect a union decision.

A democratic union vote is a way to allow everyone to have their opinion heard, everyone should be allowed to vote the way they see fit. Union members should then back the result of the majority, even if its contrary to the way they voted. Your idea that everyone has to vote yes is quite frankly vile and ridiculous.

That’s what referendums are for. If a union is balloting then it’s a last resort. You have to support the ballot otherwise what’s the point of being in the union in the first place? Why is it vile or ridiculous?

 

[O L Leigh]

That’s what referendums are for. If a union is balloting then it’s a last resort. You have to support the ballot otherwise what’s the point of being in the union in the first place? Why is it vile or ridiculous?

Because just sometimes the union is barking up the wrong tree (ref: EJRA).

The union is meant to represent the interests of it's members, but if the membership feels that it's interests have not been represented, whether individually or collectively, then it is right for them to vote "no". They are there to further our interests, not the other way around.

 

[BayPaul]

Most people on the railway now came from jobs where they were just expected to do things for free. I'm sure your employer appreciates your attitude and will kindly not offer any additional payment or pay increases for your efforts.

Because my employer has a good relationship with its staff, we regularly get a decent pay rise, without the need for threats of strike action.
I just don't understand the us and them attitude on the railway

 

[Horizon22]

Samsung work phone.

1m 2s to press the Outlook button
3m 27s for it to update my inbox

My work tablet is a no go as it isn't charged. The only reason my work phone is charged is because I need it tomorrow and the battery fault means it has to be plugged in or it wont last overnight. There is a software update required Again !! and the Samsung apps can't be updated because of out IT policies block the Galaxy store.

Not all IT and tech is created equal.

It is true that many work phones are appalling slow, I will give people that. My previous one was terribly bad at updating ANYTHING (click outlook and wait and find no new emails despite it being 4 days...) until IT finally rolled out the new models.

That being said that wasn't a training issue or anything like that - the systems given were a little slow and everyone (middle management and train managers alike) were frustrated. TOCs have lots of advice and training on how to use the hardware - often after the initial hour training or whatever has been given. The problem is that a lot of railway staff seem to feel they have to be spoonfed not just after the 1st usage, but every subsequent time after.

 

[godfreycomplex]

The entitlement of some people who work in the railway on this thread is ridiculous.

If I got paid as a teacher every time the DfE introduced something new or things changed, I would be a millionaire!

Join your union and instruct your representatives to make your conditions of work better, if they’re unsatisfactory.

 

[Starmill]

Value for money will of course be questioned now in all areas on the railway. The places where there's the lowest value for money will the be the most at risk.

 

[O L Leigh]

Because my employer has a good relationship with its staff, we regularly get a decent pay rise, without the need for threats of strike action.
I just don't understand the us and them attitude on the railway

You will notice that on operators where such healthy industrial relationships thrive, there is generally a good sense of harmony and very little in the way of industrial unrest. It's just that the railways have a good staff-side representation that gives an alternative to the if-you-don't-like-it-you-can-leave approach that I've witnessed elsewhere in my former working life.

 

[Starmill]

Join your union and instruct your representatives to make your conditions of work better, if they’re unsatisfactory.

The government are effectively monopsonists on teaching of course. So if they say "we hear your concerns but we're not going to do anything about it, sorry" where do you go from there?

 

[66787]

As regards to the paid overtime for Covid testing - it isn’t as if it could be done on the clock in normal paid hours. If a train is booked to leave at for example 58 mins past the hour, drivers/guards/catering crew will be booked on to the minute. For example, a 15 mins booking on allowance and say 6 mins prep time, you would commence work at xx:37.

I hardly think it is unreasonable to ask for this to be done on the clock. It’s not as if you could do it when waiting for the kettle to boil in an office first thing in the morning!

For the additional use of apps, all these are of benefit to the company. The use of electronically checking shifts and applying for leave, yes - it is easier for the staff member individually, however multiply this by several hundred staff members and the saving to a company will be huge. Especially as leave could be granted automatically up to a certain quota. For electronic ticket scanning - again the same applies. It will be in the TM’s job description or terms and conditions to check and sell tickets etc - with no mentioning of scanning. Yes, a ticket can be checked without scanning and the scanner is an aid to the TM - but it is by far more of use to the company in terms of hundreds of staff using them - and being able to reduce fraudulent refund/compensation claims.

Again, if savings are made by the company (ultimately increasing shareholders payouts) - how can it be deemed unreasonable to ask for an additional remuneration because of the fruit of their labour. I’d imagine commission isn’t anywhere near what it used to be with the ease of buying tickets at the touch of a button on a mobile phone. If 500 tickets are scanned a day at 2p per scan for example, which prevents potential fraudulent use of what could be a £100+ ticket is hardly asking the world?

 

[londonteacher]

Join your union and instruct your representatives to make your conditions of work better, if they’re unsatisfactory.

I never said they were unsatisfactory.

The attitudes on this thread to having things like an iPad are utterly ridiculous! Bring on autonomous trains!

 

[godfreycomplex]

I never said they were unsatisfactory.

The attitudes on this thread to having things like an iPad are utterly ridiculous! Bring on autonomous trains!

Fine, yours are satisfactory to you. That doesn’t mean that other people in other industries that you don’t work in are somehow obliged to be satisfied with theirs.

 

[Starmill]

As regards to the paid overtime for Covid testing - it isn’t as if it could be done on the clock in normal paid hours. If a train is booked to leave at for example 58 mins past the hour, drivers/guards/catering crew will be booked on to the minute. For example, a 15 mins booking on allowance and say 6 mins prep time, you would commence work at xx:37.

I hardly think it is unreasonable to ask for this to be done on the clock. It’s not as if you could do it when waiting for the kettle to boil in an office first thing in the morning!

For the additional use of apps, all these are of benefit to the company. The use of electronically checking shifts and applying for leave, yes - it is easier for the staff member individually, however multiply this by several hundred staff members and the saving to a company will be huge. Especially as leave could be granted automatically up to a certain quota. For electronic ticket scanning - again the same applies. It will be in the TM’s job description or terms and conditions to check and sell tickets etc - with no mentioning of scanning. Yes, a ticket can be checked without scanning and the scanner is an aid to the TM - but it is by far more of use to the company in terms of hundreds of staff using them - and being able to reduce fraudulent refund/compensation claims.

Again, if savings are made by the company (ultimately increasing shareholders payouts) - how can it be deemed unreasonable to ask for an additional remuneration because of the fruit of their labour. I’d imagine commission isn’t anywhere near what it used to be with the ease of buying tickets at the touch of a button on a mobile phone. If 500 tickets are scanned a day at 2p per scan for example, which prevents potential fraudulent use of what could be a £100+ ticket is hardly asking the world?

The industry is being expected to do more with less, of course. So it's not a surprise that they're looking for efficiencies in the operation is it? That's infinitely preferable to making compulsory redundancies which can alter the course of a life.

 

[the sniper]

The government are effectively monopsonists on teaching of course. So if they say "we hear your concerns but we're not going to do anything about it, sorry" where do you go from there?

Well you either commit in the way some unions do or you give up at the first hurdle and accept the hand you're dealt...

 

[seagull]

I never said they were unsatisfactory.

The attitudes on this thread to having things like an iPad are utterly ridiculous! Bring on autonomous trains!

"This thread" of course representing the view of the entire rail industry, in your opinion.

Which causes you to wish 23,000 train drivers to lose their jobs? Nice.

 

[Efini92]

Because just sometimes the union is barking up the wrong tree (ref: EJRA).

The union is meant to represent the interests of it's members, but if the membership feels that it's interests have not been represented, whether individually or collectively, then it is right for them to vote "no". They are there to further our interests, not the other way around.

EJRA was put out to referendum.
Agreed that’s what the union is there for however voting no on a ballot paper is not the answer.
A weak turn out at a ballot tells the company they can just ride over whatever the issue is.

 

[O L Leigh]

The attitudes on this thread to having things like an iPad are utterly ridiculous!

I don't think that anyone is objecting to having a tablet. They are enormously useful and far better than having printed publications and notices. Everything that I need; rule book, traction manuals, sectional appendices, weekly and periodical notices, local notices, rosters, diagrams, job cards, etc, etc, etc; now fits into a nice slim device that I can easily carry.

However, how these technologies are implemented does have to be managed. Just handing these things out and letting staff just get on with it is not acceptable. Devices have to be configured, log-ins set up and the user trained on how to access all the functions that they are required to use. Because traincrew's days are timed to the minute, there is no alternative but to release them in order that this can be done. The same applies for Covid testing and so on. We can't book-on, take all the time we need and get down to the train whenever we're ready in the same way you can if you work in an office.

I appreciate that things are different in teaching. My ex is (was?) a special-needs teacher. She estimated that she works 50% more hours than she is contracted to do in order to discharge her duties. However, that is primarily due to the amount of differentiation that she had to do for her class and because she is conscientious. But she freely admitted that no-one else but herself was making her work so many additional unpaid hours. But teaching and the railways are not comparable industries.

 

[66787]

The industry is being expected to do more with less, of course. So it's not a surprise that they're looking for efficiencies in the operation is it? That's infinitely preferable to making compulsory redundancies which can alter the course of a life.

I agree, but there has to be a balance. Say £10 “enhancement” per shift for scanning 500 tickets, saving the company potentially thousands you could argue is the RMT’s tactic to get their members a pay rise. Which isn’t going to be given on a plate by the government is it?

 

[Starmill]

Well you either commit in the way some unions do or you give up at the first hurdle and accept the hand you're dealt...

That tends not to be the case in the private sector. But in the public sector I would ask what route people think is going to be effective at increasing public sector pay, if they view it as unfairly low?

 

[AlterEgo]

Value for money will of course be questioned now in all areas on the railway. The places where there's the lowest value for money will the be the most at risk.

It already is being questioned. I fully support people's right to be in a union, but some of the attitudes on display from staff here are incredibly unwise. Wait until a few of you get quoted at the Tory party conference.

The railway will get smaller and leaner over the next ten years.

 

[O L Leigh]

EJRA was put out to referendum.
Agreed that’s what the union is there for however voting no on a ballot paper is not the answer.
A weak turn out at a ballot tells the company they can just ride over whatever the issue is.

So what? I should have just rolled over and taken a kicking because my trades union, the union I belong to which is meant to represent my interests, wanted to take away my legal right to choose when I retire?

You need to wake up a bit. What the union recommends is not always in it's membership's best interests. You vote on each referendum one at a time based on what proposal is in front of you at that time. A vote in one referendum does not indicate the direction the next referendum will take. And it is a myth that the company cares about whether the turnout is strong or weak. That's just union rhetoric to make sure you vote in a particular way.

 

[Starmill]

But teaching and the railways are not comparable industries.

True as that may be they won't be viewed differently by government now.

 

[the sniper]

That tends not to be the case in the private sector. But in the public sector I would ask what route people think is going to be effective at increasing public sector pay, if they view it as unfairly low?

I'm getting the impression from this thread that people off the railway aren't too fussy about what they're paid to do, so I'm not sure I should answer for them.

 

[Wolfie]

Funnily enough I imagine the RMT's ancillary complaints will suddenly be resolved once they receive an acceptable pay offer. I'd have rather more respect for them if they were honest about what their disputes are about - almost invariably pay.

The Scotrail agreement has, unsurprisingly, opened the floodgates for pay claims, and I imagine the network will be disrupted by countless strikes unless the government agrees to at least match that increase.

There is absolutely zero chance of that happening in England.

Given his current problems BoZo would love nothing more than a dispute with RMT so he could pose as the new Thatcher. That could get the blame, after CV, for all problems.... and give him a reason to pass some horribly anti-TU legislation with his big majority....

No strikes in essential services or TUs to bear all of the consequential costs arising from their disputes anyone???

 

[baz962]

I'm getting the impression from this thread that people off the railway aren't too fussy about what they're paid to do, so I'm not sure I should answer for them.

Quite strange really. I personally would quite happily have an iPad and not ask for anything , but I also respect that it's upto the Avanti staff on this issue. I wouldn't dream of telling people in other industries what they should or shouldn't get. If it turns out that it's like turkeys voting for Christmas , then that's their right. They don't have to vote for whatever the RMT propose and can vote no. How people can compare this industry to another is odd .