RMT Ballot Avanti West Coast Members For Strike Action

[GB]

Reading a notice board and reading an iPad isn't a simple change of equipment. It's completely new equipment that may require significant training and additional responsibilities.

I'm trying to think what "significant training" would be required for reading notices on an iPad.

 

[nedchester]

Reading a notice board and reading an iPad isn't a simple change of equipment. It's completely new equipment that may require significant training and additional responsibilities.

'Significant training and additional responsibilities' - Really?!

Meanwhile outside of the railway bubble. Most take on the new equipment, get the training without demanding extra payment for using such equipment.

I recently got a new work laptop.....obviously a missed a trick by not asking for an extra payment for using it!!

 

[LowLevel]

People on this forum seem to believe that scanning e-tickets is the same as paper tickets. It is not.

A clipped e-ticket can only be used once. It effectively tracks the journey and trains taken and the staff who have clipped it. A marked ‘date’ ticket can be used more than once particularly at non-barriered stations, all this tells you is that someone somewhere has seen the ticket.

Scanning an e-ticket records exactly where, when and how that ticket was used by the passenger, and ADDITIONALLY records the staff member details as well.

What your effectively doing as a TOC is benefitting from the productivity of the guard rather than the installation of ticket gates and the creation of revenue and barrier staff roles. There is a greater ideology of claiming back revenue than there is safety and customer service. Revenue is the least important role of the guard/TM, and they aren’t there to be used as marketers for finding out passenger statistics and information gained from journey details.

I disagree. I see it as another string to my bow in my being a useful asset to the railway in general. The company knows where you are and what you're doing anyway.

I scan tickets without union agreement because I think it is reasonable part of my job, and if I don't do it they'll just attach the reader on to the train and cut me out of the equation.

Back cab heroes who choose not to conduct revenue duties routinely should be managed out of the industry.

When something goes wrong, yes, it is absolutely the priority to focus on safety duties and managing the situation. But a decent guard should be able to multi task all of their duties whilst having the confidence to decide when to put something on the back burner, not deciding not to bother to do anything before they even get on the train.

 

[Efini92]

I'm trying to think what "significant training" would be required for reading notices on an iPad.

For someone that uses iPad’s not much. But for people that don’t know how to use tablets probably quite a bit.

 

[GB]

For someone that uses iPad’s not much. But for people that don’t know how to use tablets probably quite a bit.

You would need to know how to turn it on, charge it and where to find notices/information. This could all be done via email, instructions through the post or instructions left at the depot. Hardly significant training.

 

[Bletchleyite]

For someone that uses iPad’s not much. But for people that don’t know how to use tablets probably quite a bit.

Not really. As I said above, iPads are designed to be intuitive - it's often IT people they throw off because the concepts their UI uses are real-world ones, not IT ones. An hour's training and someone at the depot available to ask for help for a few weeks would be plenty, and for anyone new it's part of the job as taken.

 

[Efini92]

You would need to know how to turn it on, charge it and where to find notices/information. This could all be done via email, instructions through the post or instructions left at the depot. Hardly significant training.

Not really. As I said above, iPads are designed to be intuitive - it's often IT people they throw off because the concepts their UI uses are real-world ones, not IT ones. An hour's training and someone at the depot available to ask for help for a few weeks would be plenty, and for anyone new it's part of the job as taken.

You’re saying that as people who know how to use technology.
I can assure you for someone that’s never used any form of technology before it’s not as easy as just leaving instructions.

 

[Starmill]

You’re saying that as people who know how to use technology.
I can assure you for someone that’s never used any form of technology before it’s not as easy as just leaving instructions.

Proper training is more than leaving instructions though, as has been pointed out. It's having a reasonable time for familiarisation, say an hour, plus instructions and likely some basic demonstrations. Then having someone available to answer questions and ongoing support to return to either by phone or in person if there's any questions down the line.

 

[ComUtoR]

For most, technology is pretty simple. For others its a complete nightmare. Personally I hate Apple with a passion. I don't find any of their products easy to use. I also know a fair few Drivers who outright refuse to even turn their on because they dread using them.

My previous work tablet required numerous login screens, app downloads, updates, work profiles, content lockers etc etc. Again, for me this wasn't and isn't an issue but to dismiss it as being simple and easy shows a lack of understanding or the issues others may need to overcome. The entire email system has become integral to how my TOC operates. That is a significant change and shows how important technology usage is. Give people a days training at least.

There also has to be an acceptance that you now have a new piece of equipment that you need to look after. Because of how important this new bit of kit is you are now personally responsible for its use and upkeep. The old days of just chucking stuff in your bag and leaving it all in your locker are long gone.

How all this stuff is implemented as key to changing the culture on the railway. Just handing a tablet to someone and expecting them to be clued up and then expecting them to use it daily is detrimental and part of the bad culture.

An hour's training and someone at the depot available to ask for help for a few weeks would be plenty, and for anyone new it's part of the job as taken.

This is very much part of the issue. Because 'The Railway' is broken and in dire need of change it is never as simple as you are making out. Taking someone off duty for a few weeks will cost the company in work being needed to cover. Finding the time for everyone to be given an hours training may not actually be possible. As many Drivers (as I'm a Driver) will tell you that we just don't have that time booked on our diagram. At my TOC we have no days booked for training so any training that is undertaken requires you to be taken off duty. There is no real mechanism to force staff to book on an hour earlier/later for an hours training either. Even then you need to cover the additional time with paid overtime.

What's easier ? Roster your entire workforce an additional hours overtime, change booking on times etc, take people off duty, cover days with rest day working, train someone to brief others or just bung them £50 notes and a printout with instructions ?

 

[43096]

I disagree. I see it as another string to my bow in my being a useful asset to the railway in general. The company knows where you are and what you're doing anyway.

I scan tickets without union agreement because I think it is reasonable part of my job, and if I don't do it they'll just attach the reader on to the train and cut me out of the equation.

Back cab heroes who choose not to conduct revenue duties routinely should be managed out of the industry.

When something goes wrong, yes, it is absolutely the priority to focus on safety duties and managing the situation. But a decent guard should be able to multi task all of their duties whilst having the confidence to decide when to put something on the back burner, not deciding not to bother to do anything before they even get on the train.

Good on you! Glad to see some members of staff on here get it and do the right thing.

 

[LowLevel]

You’re saying that as people who know how to use technology.
I can assure you for someone that’s never used any form of technology before it’s not as easy as just leaving instructions.

All of our guards use a smartphone and associated apps to check and sell tickets. It took a little time to get some of the old boys up to speed and occasionally one will give you a call as a "young whizzkid" (I don't even own a computer ) if something a bit unusual comes up or it breaks but they all work fine now. Our assessments are all done via the assessor's tablet. We no longer have a paper file, it's all Cloud based.

I resent being tied to reams of paper for the sake of theoretical basic IT literacy. I still have to fax (yes, fax) handwritten paper reports to control for goodness sake, who then take a photo of it, scan it into the computer and attach it to the log.

It is utter nonsense.

The vast majority of the people who moan about the idea own their own smartphone which they are quite happy competent to use, they're just resistant to change which is the same the world over in all industries and requires managing, partly through carrots and partly through sticks.

 

[nedchester]

Whilst accepting there may need to be a certain amount of training on 'devices' I think the important thing is that using them (once trained) should NOT mean that someone needs extra payments to use such devices.

If people need a lot of changing either they are resistant to change or just not very bright (and we rely on these people for our safety......)

 

[AlterEgo]

You’re saying that as people who know how to use technology.
I can assure you for someone that’s never used any form of technology before it’s not as easy as just leaving instructions.

Still isn’t a reason to have a payrise for the grade which is then baked into the railway forever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back cab heroes who choose not to conduct revenue duties routinely should be managed out of the industry.

I expect they will anyway - by way of more DOO conversions forced by a Government willing to have the fight, a la Liverpool dockers etc. It's very hard to argue against it on the south WCML when a lot of people think it already is DOO because you see the guards so rarely.

Which is a real shame given how guards like yourself bring benefits to the railway.

 

[ComUtoR]

I resent being tied to reams of paper for the sake of theoretical basic IT literacy. I still have to fax (yes, fax) handwritten paper reports to control for goodness sake, who then take a photo of it, scan it into the computer and attach it to the log.

It is utter nonsense.

Our 'paperless office' is : Print it, sign it, scan it, bin it.

Completely absurd !

 

[mpthomson]

You’re saying that as people who know how to use technology.
I can assure you for someone that’s never used any form of technology before it’s not as easy as just leaving instructions.

I'm not sure that in 2021 someone who never uses technology is going to be doing revenue work on or a driving a train

 

[Bluejays]

I think clause 9 is they’ve put you on notice of termination. Happy to be corrected though.



If members don’t agree with the stance of the union they should turn up to meetings and voice their issues/stand for positions. Voting no on the ballot paper sends a message to the company that the union is weak.
Crossing a picket line is not the right thing to do. If money is an issue the unions have hardship funds.

I wouldn't cross a picket line, I'm no lefty or strongly pro union but I just couldn't cross one on principle. But seeing you write that voting no on the ballot is 'weak' actually makes me question myself. I don't think your view is typical of union members, but if it was , it would form a very good reason to never respect a union decision.

A democratic union vote is a way to allow everyone to have their opinion heard, everyone should be allowed to vote the way they see fit. Union members should then back the result of the majority, even if its contrary to the way they voted. Your idea that everyone has to vote yes is quite frankly vile and ridiculous.

 

[Trackman]

On the point of coach K being a messroom and the recent removal of this; with a handful of staff onboard don't people think it is right that these staff have their own personal space to go to once they have completed their duties? Where else can they go? The TM office is a little too small to fit around 4 or 5 staff in it!

In the early VT Pendo days the waiters/waitresses used to sit on the fold down seats in the vestibule of coach J, I don’t know if this was official or not. In the VT loco days there was big hoo-hah over on-board staff sitting in First and smoking etc and complaints from Pax.

Whilst accepting there may need to be a certain amount of training on 'devices' I think the important thing is that using them (once trained) should NOT mean that someone needs extra payments to use such devices.

If people need a lot of changing either they are resistant to change or just not very bright (and we rely on these people for our safety......)

In my experience some people just simply do not want to adapt to change even though it's going to help them. There are dismissive from the off, until it's forced upon them.

 

[800001]

In the early VT Pendo days the waiters/waitresses used to sit on the fold down seats in the vestibule of coach J, I don’t know if this was official or not. In the VT loco days there was big hoo-hah over on-board staff sitting in First and smoking etc and complaints from Pax.

In my experience some people just simply do not want to adapt to change even though it's going to help them. There are dismissive from the off, until it's forced upon them.

Same with Lner, the catering crew love to take over coach M in first class by spreading out in the seats, even though they have there own staff area between the cab and the kitchen.
They get quite offended when you tell them that you will sit in coach M.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same with Lner, the catering crew love to take over coach M in first class by spreading out in the seats, even though they have there own staff area between the cab and the kitchen.
They get quite offended when you tell them that you will sit in coach M.

This really needs to be sorted.

If they are on shift, they should be serving passengers continuously. If there isn't enough work for that, the number of them on those trains should be reduced so as to save money.

If they are on break, fine, but they should have breaks in rotation so the service is maintained.

This would not be tolerated in a restaurant, and so far as their job goes that is precisely what it is.

 

[the sniper]

I wouldn't cross a picket line, I'm no lefty or strongly pro union but I just couldn't cross one on principle. But seeing you write that voting no on the ballot is 'weak' actually makes me question myself. I don't think your view is typical of union members, but if it was , it would form a very good reason to never respect a union decision.

A democratic union vote is a way to allow everyone to have their opinion heard, everyone should be allowed to vote the way they see fit. Union members should then back the result of the majority, even if its contrary to the way they voted. Your idea that everyone has to vote yes is quite frankly vile and ridiculous.

While I don't agree that everyone should just vote yes, if they don't agree they should vote no, it is true that the position of the union/members is much stronger with a big yes return on a ballot. The recent situation in Scotland has shown that again, it avoided a strike... But it's not helpful that people treat the unions just like an insurance policy rather than something they should actually be engaged with themselves. If you don't go to any of the meetings, you can't be surprised that the union doesn't represent your views. You set the union/members/yourself up for a fall if too many don't engage.

 

[dk1]

'Significant training and additional responsibilities' - Really?!

Meanwhile outside of the railway bubble. Most take on the new equipment, get the training without demanding extra payment for using such equipment.

I recently got a new work laptop.....obviously a missed a trick by not asking for an extra payment for using it!!

That you did!!

We don’t get it every time it replaced though. For example £300 was a one off payment to accept a Samsung tablet for information & notices. That was because it was over & above the minutes for the job description so therefore has to be negotiated.

 

[Starmill]

I suppose if you want to be in a 'job for life' where you can leverage any old thing you like (including gilding the lilly somewhat) basically to get extra payments, and can easily threaten disputes to get your own way, then it's a nice position to be in. Can't exactly fault anyone for that.

The responsibility lies with the management class and Departmental oversight that allows people to take liberties with scarce resources. That's what needs to be looked at carefully. There's no longer a choice anyway. We're at the point now where either efficiencies are made, including with staff costs, or lines close and services are cut.

 

[Watershed]

Funnily enough I imagine the RMT's ancillary complaints will suddenly be resolved once they receive an acceptable pay offer. I'd have rather more respect for them if they were honest about what their disputes are about - almost invariably pay.

The Scotrail agreement has, unsurprisingly, opened the floodgates for pay claims, and I imagine the network will be disrupted by countless strikes unless the government agrees to at least match that increase.

 

[nedchester]

That you did!!

We don’t get it every time it replaced though. For example £300 was a one off payment to accept a Samsung tablet for information & notices. That was because it was over & above the minutes for the job description so therefore has to be negotiated.

Sorry but £300 is just taking the p***. As I say outside the railway bubble people have changes to equipment all the time. They use new software packages (I recently changed) but there is no expectation of additional one off payments. I'm afraid that the bubble is about to burst on such nonsense.

 

[Stigy]

Refusing to help you out when you might be looking for it isn’t blackmail, it would be a consequence of crossing picket line and giving two fingers to your colleagues.



That’s not how a union functions. Surely you’re not so naive as to think that your colleagues will ever support you if you require it when you’d happily leave them in the lurch when they required your support.

You’re taking what I’m saying, and interpreting it to fit what your militant way of thinking.

I’m not saying that I’d leave anyone in the lurch, I’m simply saying that if I don’t agree with the cause, I won’t stand up for it.

 

[dk1]

Sorry but £300 is just taking the p***. As I say outside the railway bubble people have changes to equipment all the time. They use new software packages (I recently changed) but there is no expectation of additional one off payments. I'm afraid that the bubble is about to burst on such nonsense.

It all has to be agreed with ASLEF else we'd be having all & sundry put onto us & as said, must be as agreed in the minutes. For the same reason COVID tests & daily temperature checks where paid as overtime else how else was in-cab training going to be restarted during the pandemic?

 

[800001]

It all has to be agreed with ASLEF else we'd be having all & sundry put onto us & as said, must be as agreed in the minutes. For the same reason COVID tests & daily temperature checks where paid as overtime else how else was in-cab training going to be restarted during the pandemic?

I'm sorry, but covid tests and daily temp checks paid as overtime really is taking the mick. Companies all over the country will of had staff doing that without paying overtime, and I can't see any justification for paying overtime, even if that was what was required for driver training.

Where I work, temp checks prior to entry to building and daily lateral flow checks have become the norm, and I do those checks to protect others around me, not thinking, oh i should get overtime for this.

No wonder the railway is looking for cost cutting if they are paying overtime for testing.

 

[ComUtoR]

It all has to be agreed with ASLEF else we'd be having all & sundry put onto us & as said, must be as agreed in the minutes. For the same reason COVID tests & daily temperature checks where paid as overtime else how else was in-cab training going to be restarted during the pandemic?

1. I'd love to work at your TOC/FOC !

2. How are staff morale and industrial relations at your TOC/FOC ? It sounds like Management and ASLEF work together and even though the wheels are greased, they are turning smoothly.

 

[nedchester]

It all has to be agreed with ASLEF else we'd be having all & sundry put onto us & as said, must be as agreed in the minutes. For the same reason COVID tests & daily temperature checks where paid as overtime else how else was in-cab training going to be restarted during the pandemic?

Do ASLEF demand training time when they change the type of toilet paper in the bogs?
They’ll be asking you to drive trains next!
Tick-tock things are gonna change very soon..........