Where could class 350/2s units go?

[Halifaxlad]

There aren’t 2 operational conductors on any services. LPO’s work alongside conductors on the some trains at a much lesser cost and are much more flexible in where they can be. Do you really think 1 conductor can be checking tickets in 8 coaches when they will have to be in the centre of the train at every station? The average time between stations is 3 minutes on the routes the electrics work (slightly more on the Donny service).

My point about conductors was that its much cheaper to have one person rather than two and that its unpractical to expect to have two members of staff on every service 24/7 especially in the evenings when 1 conductor manages to operate the doors and look after customers/check tickets ect as we do at the moment!

If the Aire Valley was operated as multiples of four car units then at least in the evenings services could be reduced to four car units as we have at the moment! Running multiples of three car units will impact on either capacity, revenue protection or finances if more people are employed to check tickets! Obviously depending on if services run as 6 cars into the night!

 

[172007]

All very well, but they'd need bodyside cameras and, perhaps more of an issue, somewhere to place the DOO screens in the cabs.

They really need somewhere electrified with Guards, unless they undergo modifications.

Also.... Electrostars have a programme planned to fit with Driver Machine Interfaces (speedo etc. on a computer screen to be retro-fitted in the cab) to enable running under ETCS - which is coming within the next few years on the ECML.

Is there any such plan for any 350s?

I have heard that due to the width of the C350 vehicles being wide to accommodate the 3x2 seating that to putting external cameras will make them out of gauge. However, I am sure that technology now would easily enable the station camera feed to be sent to a train at each station.

 

[Halifaxlad]

If Northern get any more EMU’s it will be 331’s.

Here's an idea, how about some new cars to lengthen 3 car 331s into 4 car 331s ?

I do appreciate not over complicating the Northern Fleet and that 350/2 redeployment will probably be dependant on more knitting!

But I do still see some 350/2s ending up with Northern after more knitting has been knitted!

 

[Ianno87]

Here's an idea, how about some new cars to lengthen 3 car 331s into 4 car 331s ?

That won't work on the Bolton corridor, where platforms are 6 car length (usually 2 x 3-car Class 331s together).

 

[Halifaxlad]

That won't work on the Bolton corridor, where platforms are 6 car length (usually 2 x 3-car Class 331s together).

Aye sorry for not being specific enough as I was generally thinking for around Yorkshire.

 

[Neptune]

But I do still see some 350/2s ending up with Northern after more knitting has been knitted!

I suspect that by the time anymore routes are fully electrified around Yorkshire that the 350/2’s will either have been redeployed, exported or scrapped.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I suspect that by the time anymore routes are fully electrified around Yorkshire that the 350/2’s will either have been redeployed, exported or scrapped.

There is only one thing to say!

Time will tell!

 

[Domh245]

I have heard that due to the width of the C350 vehicles being wide to accommodate the 3x2 seating that to putting external cameras will make them out of gauge. However, I am sure that technology now would easily enable the station camera feed to be sent to a train at each station.

I think that's not entirely true. The 350s are 2.8m wide (and slab sided - which is more likely to be the issue than the actual width) - but so are the 700s, which do have bodyside cameras.

If there was a will, it would be possible to fit cameras, but shoehorning the monitor into the cab may be trickier than attaching and gauge clearing the cameras.

You are right that the technology exists to allow station to train transmission - this is the system the 345s use. It is not the preferred solution though, it is less reliable than bodyside cameras

 

[Neptune]

There is only one thing to say!

Time will tell!

Do you expect full electrification of any route to be complete in the next couple of years? 5 years? Maybe 10 years at best. Do you think the 350/2’s will hang around at Long Marston until then on the off chance that Northern change their policy of streamlining the fleet?

 

[Halifaxlad]

Do you expect full electrification of any route to be complete in the next couple of years? 5 years? Maybe 10 years at best. Do you think the 350/2’s will hang around at Long Marston until then on the off chance that Northern change their policy of streamlining the fleet?

If any of the withdrawn electric sit in sidings it will be the 350,2s im sure. Are we expecting all withdrawn trains to be given the chop ?

 

[Neptune]

If any of the withdrawn electric sit in sidings it will be the 350,2s im sure. Are we expecting all withdrawn trains to be given the chop ?

Do you really believe that 350’s will hang around rotting at Long Marston or some such place for a decade on the off chance Northern want them? Seriously?

 

[swt_passenger]

You are right that the technology exists to allow station to train transmission - this is the system the 345s use. It is not the preferred solution though, it is less reliable than bodyside cameras

It is as you say non-preferred, but is the only solution with Crossrail’s full height platform edge doors... I guess using different systems in the core section and at existing stations would have been possible though - maybe it was thought too complex?

 

[172007]

Do you really believe that 350’s will hang around rotting at Long Marston or some such place for a decade on the off chance Northern want them? Seriously?

I suspect there is already work for them but isn't public information. If the DFT really let the 350/2's sit unused for any amount of time then then any company in the train leasing game will think twice about financing any new fleets.

 

[JonathanH]

I suspect there is already work for them but isn't public information. If the DFT really let the 350/2's sit unused for any amount of time then then any company in the train leasing game will think twice about financing any new fleets.

That doesn't stand to reason. It is one fleet and it is up to the ROSCO to price their fleets such that there is someone who wants them - it is also for them to predict whether their fleets will be used over a 30-year life. There are enough players in the train leasing market that one fleet not being used is not going to cause train leasing companies as a whole to 'think twice' about future fleets.

If the DfT don't want to lease the 350/2 fleet so be it. They have no obligation to ensure the units are used.

It would seem very likely that other fleets will be downsized to save costs in the near future with the most unreliable units taken out of service. The 350/2s are only one part of that.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Do you really believe that 350’s will hang around rotting at Long Marston or some such place for a decade on the off chance Northern want them? Seriously?

I hardly think all trains that arn't currently being used will be scrapped because nobody currently has a use for them!

 

[Neptune]

I hardly think all trains that arn't currently being used will be scrapped because nobody currently has a use for them!

Especially Northern who’s EMU plans are already set.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Especially Northern who’s EMU plans are already set.

How do their plans fit in future electrification ?

 

[swt_passenger]

I hardly think all trains that arn't currently being used will be scrapped because nobody currently has a use for them!

I think that’s what people said about the 365s…

 

[Halifaxlad]

I think that’s what people said about the 365s…

It's hard going to happen to every single stored train thou is it ? Which was my point, the 365s were getting on a bit anyway whilst the 350s are almost the newest stock in a siding!

 

[swt_passenger]

It's hard going to happen to every single stored train thou is it ? Which was my point, the 365s were getting on a bit anyway whilst the 350s are almost the newest stock in a siding!

Sure, much less likely with 350/2.

 

[Neptune]

How do their plans fit in future electrification ?

How many times? Additional 331’s.

 

[JonathanH]

It's hard going to happen to every single stored train thou is it ? Which was my point, the 365s were getting on a bit anyway whilst the 350s are almost the newest stock in a siding!

They are over ten years old and component recovery would provide parts for many other trains. The DfT and other transport authorities are under precisely no obligation at all to see that these trains have any further use.

However, I imagine that they would just go for shredding without any attempt to reuse / recycle anything which I agree is somewhat profligate.

 

[Halifaxlad]

How many times? Additional 331’s.

So your saying if there was the option of brand new trains and modern second hand trains available they would go for brand new trains every time ?

 

[Neptune]

So your saying if there was the option of brand new trains and modern second hand trains available they would go for brand new trains every time ?

Bingo

 

[JonathanH]

So your saying if there was the option of brand new trains and modern second hand trains available they would go for brand new trains every time ?

Clearly it depends on many factors, including training costs, maintenance, platform lengths, need to keep multiple sets of spares, service patterns, not just the relative lease costs.

Once other factors are taken into account, the difference in overall costs may not be significant enough to favour a different secondhand fleet.

 

[43096]

That doesn't stand to reason. It is one fleet and it is up to the ROSCO to price their fleets such that there is someone who wants them - it is also for them to predict whether their fleets will be used over a 30-year life. There are enough players in the train leasing market that one fleet not being used is not going to cause train leasing companies as a whole to 'think twice' about future fleets.

Actually, it does make investors think twice. The 707s going off lease (since re-leased of course), the 350/2s and other less than life expired fleets also at risk has been noticed by the new entrants who thought they had a sure bet to making money. If you were investing in the likes of Rock Rail and suddenly your 7 or 10 year contract really did have significant risk after that point, you'd be worried.

 

[Sm5]

Deleted

 

[JonathanH]

Coming back to the 350/2.. why not add shoes and use them to replace Southern 455’s.

Because it would be excessive work to do when there are Electrostars which can be freed up by a cascade to replace the 455s.

I often wondered if York built EMUs using the same sprinter body shell could be interlinked, ie a 317/150 hybrid, so it could run of diesel or AC, or if the trailers could be extracted to lengthen 150’s.

Insufficient power available to include a trailer vehicle. The transmission on the 150s can't be powered off the electric supply.

its odd on arailway esposing green credentials its a glut of emus with no where to go thats seeing so many prematurely chopped.

So long as new stock isn't built unnecessarily, freeing up the surplus units for recycling is probably reasonable. It amazes me that the 720 fleet build hasn't been cut back in quantity given fewer units will be needed than were originally ordered.

 

[Sm5]

Deleted

 

[JonathanH]

which loops me back to hybrid options on the 317’s.. there was obviously spare underfloor space, as the 150’s used that space.

The attempts to make 319s into Hybrid units aren't going particularly well and they were more suited to that conversion than a 317 or a 321.