RMT Ballot Avanti West Coast Members For Strike Action

[43096]

It happens 320320. Or people that will happily be in the union when it suits them and then cancel their membership when there's the threat of strike action so they can scab. Seen it at my place, I've made a mental note of names.

I do hope you're not going to be victimising people. You might find that disciplinary processes take a very dim view of that - quite rightly, too.

 

[Starmill]

So you’re more concerned about “odd and outdated terms“ than the claims of the unfair dismissal of an employee.

I find it odd that so many people take any opportunity to side with employers over staff on this forum.

I disagree that that's generally what happens. I've not witnessed any support for employers in the industry where they have lost cases at the Tribunal.

 

[6Gman]

The issue that I am certainly in support of is the dismissal of Brother Stanford, I've known him personally for 22 years, it's just a LOT has been brewing at Avanti as can be seen and some could say it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==


Then I'm actually in shock you're not supporting your fellow colleagues, I don't even work for Avanti I agree with their action for ballot, because I know that it could be my job next. Please tell me for the love of god you're not in TSSA.

The impression I get as a retired railwayman is that this is a response to a whole series of issues since Avanti took over. Any one of which, in isolation, probably wouldn't have provoked such a response but collectively they give an impression (which may or may not be justified - I have no way of knowing) of a company rewriting terms and conditions without serious consultation.

Of course, the language used by the RMT (again, in my view) is rather unhelpful hyperbole.

(I have sat on both sides of railway consultation both as management and as staff side.)

 

[Horizon22]

So you’re more concerned about “odd and outdated terms“ than the claims of the unfair dismissal of an employee.

I find it odd that so many people take any opportunity to side with employers over staff on this forum.

I didn't say that. But people often quip how it is "impossible to fire anyone on the railway" and having seen disciplinary & grievance cases myself, I would generally agree. Therefore is someone has been dismissed, then yes, I tend to think that it probably is for good reason. There are so many hoops and appeals to jump through to ensure its a dismissal that is fair. HR also work alongside managers - the last thing they want is a tribunal for unfair dismissal that succeeds.

 

[221129]

I suspect that this is just the start...

 

[DazrahT]

Charming behaviour - going around marking out people and preparing to call them "scabs". You know you've essentially describing bullying just because someone is (or isn't) in the union and doesn't agree with your particular ideals.

I stand by my words, people I've worked with for many years, and not just one person who left the union purely so they didn't have to strike. The union is only as strong as it members. That's the problem with the railway nowadays, too many "I'm alright Jack" types.

 

[Starmill]

I suspect that this is just the start...

No doubt the ScotRail dispute will be resumed in a few months when the pay deal expires too.

 

[DazrahT]

I suspect that this is just the start...

From the RMT meeting I've just attended today, believe me, it is.

 

[6Gman]

It sounds to me like all of these things benefit the staff by making their jobs easier.

I can understand that the introduction of "3-classes" will have created additional work and general aggravation* for both Train Managers and catering staff as they have to explain who pays what, who sits where and what they get.

* From the feedback on this Forum it seems that the introduction has been pretty botched.

 

[DazrahT]

I do hope you're not going to be victimising people. You might find that disciplinary processes take a very dim view of that - quite rightly, too.

No I wouldn't stoop so low. But if they asked me to cover a rest day for them as a favour, the answer would be no

 

[Horizon22]

I stand by my words, people I've worked with for many years, and not just one person who left the union purely so they didn't have to strike. The union is only as strong as it members. That's the problem with the railway nowadays, too many "I'm alright Jack" types.

There are some like that, and everyone is different. But don't forget there will be people in the union who disagree with your arguably strong stance too. That's why you have ballots - a free and fair and private vote. Not everyone in the union will vote for industrial action; if indeed they vote at all.

 

[Starmill]

I can understand that the introduction of "3-classes" will have created additional work and general aggravation* for both Train Managers and catering staff as they have to explain who pays what, who sits where and what they get.

* From the feedback on this Forum it seems that the introduction has been pretty botched.

Perhaps there's been some poor implementation yes. But it's difficult to see how reducing the First Class accommodation on the train creates any particular additional work.

The implementation clearly needed to be better planned and executed of course. But that doesn't explain why installing an app to a company device is some kind of problem.

 

[Stigy]

It happens 320320. Or people that will happily be in the union when it suits them and then cancel their membership when there's the threat of strike action so they can scab. Seen it at my place, I've made a mental note of names.

One doesn’t have to cancel one’s membership in order to “scab”. I’d strike break if I didn’t agree with the reason for the strike and would not be bullied. The way I see it, is I pay the Union for a service, so they’re there when I need them. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything they do and I’d certainly not be all brother this and sister that.

 

[Sheridan]

One doesn’t have to cancel one’s membership in order to “scab”. I’d strike break if I didn’t agree with the reason for the strike and would not be bullied. The way I see it, is I pay the Union for a service, so they’re there when I need them. Doesn’t mean I have to agree with everything they do and I’d certainly not be all brother this and sister that.

Why bother being in the union at all? If you won’t support them, they probably won’t put much effort into supporting you if you do happen to need them anyway.

 

[Darandio]

But that doesn't explain why installing an app to a company device is some kind of problem.

It's simply the resistance to change unless they get something extra in return. It's not that long ago that one TOC wanted to change how information was conveyed to drivers by introducing tablets, arguably this is a much more efficient and up to date way of dealing with it. The union of course resisted unless the drivers had a nice one off payment to receive the information this way. It would be ridiculous anywhere else .

 

[nedchester]

Indeed I do. And I embrace a whole host of new technologies. Sometimes they have issues and you know what? I raise it through the channels - my manager or my union - and generally we come to a resolution. One of the things mentioned in this thread was about how slow the railway is to change and to embrace technology. So here is a company trying to do that and then suddenly the RMT is calling a dispute? Change starts coming and it is an inveitable part of life but this resistance and general slow pace (and sometimes going nuclear about it) is one of the parts I find most frustrating about my own industry.

Most of the things listed people really shouldn't bat an eyelid to - such as "installation of several work-related apps on work phones without agreement" or "the use of ticket scanners – which are used to gather and analyse data on the number of passengers in transit". Honestly baffles me (and probably many others) as to why this would be n issue.

As I said, I'm sure there are some issues with some of the procedures and technologies being introduced. But I would hazard they have been hugely overblown.

I find it utterly baffling that certain rail workers think they should be entitled to extra payment just because they are using new technology.
If I get a new laptop for work do I need to demand an extra payment for using it?
It’s this kind of thing that makes me think that very soon the RMT bubble is about to burst….

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==

It's simply the resistance to change unless they get something extra in return. It's not that long ago that one TOC wanted to change how information was conveyed to drivers by introducing tablets, arguably this is a much more efficient and up to date way of dealing with it. The union of course resisted unless the drivers had a nice one off payment to receive the information this way. It would be ridiculous anywhere else .

Indeed. I think it was something like £500 just to use iPads. Ridiculous and taking the micky.

 

[Trackman]

What's their beef with ticket scanners? well apart from people on mobiles etc faffing about trying to find them.

which are used to gather and analyse data on the number of passengers in transit

So what?
---

The implementation of Standard Premium has frankly been chaos. Never the same amount of space allocated to it on each train, and where as is often the case one carriage is used for both first and standard premium causes confusion for both the train managers and catering staff.

Well, in the last few weeks it has been chaos in my experience and so has First with lack of staff, still it depends on what service your are on.. they should have thought this through.. Also it's a bad move losing a SP/First carriage on the 11 car Pendo Refurb I think.

 

[Ashley Hill]

At my TOC existing guards had a one-off technology payment on the introduction of phones,tablets,Integrale etc.
I don't like the sound of the three class system. Its bad enough trying to keep std passengers out of 1st without having to police SP too!

 

[Darandio]

What's their beef with ticket scanners? well apart from people on mobiles etc faffing about trying to find them.

Nobody was given a handsome sweetener to use them.

 

[yorkie]

Why bother being in the union at all? If you won’t support them, they probably won’t put much effort into supporting you if you do happen to need them anyway.

The Union is supposed to support its members, not the other way round

 

[Kite159]

What's their beef with ticket scanners?

Means they could be monitored if they carry out revenue duties etc [rather than sitting chatting with the catering staff in coach K]

 

[Sheridan]

The Union is supposed to support its members, not the other way round

Agreed, but that works both ways. I quoted a message from a member saying they wouldn’t support others in the union, but they would still expect support for themselves.

 

[yorkie]

Agreed, but that works both ways. I quoted a message from a member saying they wouldn’t support others in the union, but they would still expect support for themselves.

I think you are conflating different things and/or have flawed logic.

The Union should represent each member at any disciplinary process.

There should be no obligation for any individual to support industrial action connected with any such dispute; not supporting such action should not in any way be deemed to forfeit the rights for representation for that individual.

I recall for example the RMT being unsuccessful in causing disruption back in 2013 regarding GWR's decision to sack Andrew Davies. GWR staff told me how they did not support the action. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be supported in the event of any disciplinary action they are subject to.

 

[nedchester]

Nobody was given a handsome sweetener to use them.

Why should they be given a sweetener?

 

[yorkie]

Why should they be given a sweetener?

I was told that that on Northern, Guards are given a payment based on the number of scans they do. I don't know if a request for a similar arrangement has been made at Avanti.

 

[Geeves]

Its 2p per scan at Northern, Avanti being Avanti probably tabled 52p a scan.

 

[philthetube]

In my opinion it depends on the level of "change", if TOCs keep adding more and more technology to the job role, you might as well end up working for free. First it's Avantix machines, then it's QR barcode scanners, then it's an app to measure you for uniform sizes rather than sending someone round with a tape measure. Where does it stop?

Sorry I don't get what you are saying, unless managers are deducting wages because scanners are being used or apps instead of tape measures I cant see how people end up working for free.

Why bother being in the union at all? If you won’t support them, they probably won’t put much effort into supporting you if you do happen to need them anyway.

Because toc's operate a disciplinary system where you need to be represented following an alleged/actual error.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Why do you find this term so objectionable ?

Brother is also a masculine noun. So do they not want female votes?

I just find it rather odd and outdated - any other terms "hardworking colleague" for example come across as modern and more professional. I wouldn't want to be in a cult, which is the first thing that comes to my mind.

Yep

 

[DazrahT]

Sorry I don't get what you are saying, unless managers are deducting wages because scanners are being used or apps instead of tape measures I cant see how people end up working for free.

Because they add more and more to your duties without consultation, little by little, getting you to performs activities that are outside your (already negotiated) terms and conditions for no extra pay then you're in effect working extra, for free.

The tape measure scenario, that's putting one or more person at the uniform supplier out of a job.

 

[Sheridan]

Brother is also a masculine noun. So do they not want female votes?

The person in question is male (and presumably happily identifies as such). Are you suggesting they don’t refer to female members as ‘sister’?