Passengers not routinely offered cheaper tickets.

[AlterEgo]

Is spending time to root out a cheaper fare (which by definition involves changing the revenue received by one operator over another) considered partial or impartial?

You could argue it is being partial to the fare setter/revenue reciever of the cheaper ticket.

A competent clerk should ask questions about whether the customer wants a cheaper fare, or wants to get there quickest, or is happy to go more slowly or less direct for less money, or will accept restrictions, for example.

The big problem is not every customer will want this conversation; I would estimate you need to ask between 6-12 questions of a customer to be certain of selling the absolute best fare for their needs. Think of a passenger approaching a ticket office at Edinburgh and saying they need to go to London. How many questions, and how long, does it take to ensure the customer gets the correct ticket? Being presented with options verbally is not how most people of my generation would prefer to receive the information, and for this reason, there will be a generational shift away from Man Behind Glass Selling Tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2021 ==

Unless you want to use RTVs or PRIVs

It's almost like the railway might want to think about offering this facility online!

 

[voyagerdude220]

I could very easily use the TIS which my employer uses in order to sell a London Midland only ticket.

Admittedly some of my colleagues have no idea what the abbreviated restriction code on the ticket means, but I've explained to them that it's basically a far slower, but much cheaper alternative to the usual Avanti services.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Try getting a LPY-EUS fare on the LMR/WMR website and it will only show the higher fares with an Avanti connection at either Runcorn, Crewe or Warrington. If you don't seek out the "our trains only" option (not obvious), you never see the fares at almost ½ the price.

The option of connecting at Warrington is also a joke. Reminds me of BA years ago when flying from Manchester via London had the info about having to make your own connection from LHR to LGW in tiny print at the bottom of the page.

 

[Haywain]

As an ex British Rail information/booking office clerk and as a retired database programmer, I'm sure the problem is that the sales software isn't showing the cheapest fare on the first screen, whereas apps do. Clerks are doing their best with software that isn't supporting them adequately.

With this experience you choose to make things more difficult for those doing the same job you used to do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2021 ==

Yes. I suspect this won't be the only example of mis-selling.

There was no mis-selling, you got the ticket you wanted.

 

[allotments]

With this experience you choose to make things more difficult for those doing the same job you used to do.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2021 ==


There was no mis-selling, you got the ticket you wanted.

Actually the clerks I've interacted with invariably find the challenge of finding the ticket interesting and it brightens their day. I've not had one fail to enjoy the challenge. They are all a credit to the railway.

Clearly the mis-selling I refer to is what happens when customers aren't informed about the cheaper ticket which meets their needs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2021 ==

Try getting a LPY-EUS fare on the LMR/WMR website and it will only show the higher fares with an Avanti connection at either Runcorn, Crewe or Warrington. If you don't seek out the "our trains only" option (not obvious), you never see the fares at almost ½ the price.

Testing a search on LNWR app just now for an open return LPY-EUS travelling 10:15 tomorrow Sun 7 Nov I get “Amend search. No tickets are available”. Searching for 10:30 departure shows all trains sold out until 18:43 (with only 1 ticket available). Incredible.

Digging into the app and toggling “our trains only” returns lots of trains all day long with connections in Crewe and a cheap £24.15 fare.

So app users could be put off travelling altogether or on another day mis-sold an unnecessarily expensive ticket at £62.35.

Testing this morning I see tickets available all day LPY-EUS on Avanti West Coast trains from AvantiWestCoast website but not from LNWR or Greater Anglia apps.

Images attached show screenshots from ticketing apps.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==

There is something odd in the data still about this. As in buying an off peak return Plumstead to Birmingham stations the online form only offered LNWR trains. But as Avanti website says recommended not mandatory, I anticipate I will be OK. Happy to use the LNWR if it's too busy

Looks like this is a persistent problem

 

[miami]

Neither the Avanti nor the Northern ticket machines at Manchester Piccadilly can sell these tickets. You have to be offered them by the ticket office, find them using the multiple small links you mention online, or already know they exist and specifically request them.

Assuming you can get past any plaform barrier, would the guard on the train be willing to sell it?

If you board at Wilmslow when the ticket office is closed presumably you'd then be able to buy it onboard. Of course this relys on people knowing about it, and neither TfW nor LNWR seem to want to advertise these tickets.

 

[Kite159]

Assuming you can get past any plaform barrier, would the guard on the train be willing to sell it?

If you board at Wilmslow when the ticket office is closed presumably you'd then be able to buy it onboard. Of course this relys on people knowing about it, and neither TfW nor LNWR seem to want to advertise these tickets.

I believe the cheaper LNR + TfW only tickets are not available from Wilmslow (or Stockport), only Manchester.

 

[miami]

Assuming that customers want to travel on the fastest trains (and therefore not telling them about cheaper alternatives), or saying that customers who want the cheaper ticket should have expert knowledge in order to ask the right questions / use specialist websites is, at best, not customer-focused at all. At worst it's blatant mis-selling.

If you walk upto a ticket clerk at Lime Street and say "How much is the cheapest return to London" do the equivalent of

https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=LIV&dest=EUS

And say "£36.60 with some restrictions, you have to travel on the slower train and can't get to London until 1pm", and also offer the £49.10, £94.50, £129.30 and £342.60 tickets

I would also (assuming it's in the morning) expect them to ask if they are coming back today (if so, offer the travelcards options too)

I don't think anyone would expect them to come up with some crazy itinerary splitting at Urmston, Derby, and Burton on Trent, but their terminal should be at least as featured as brfares.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==

I believe the cheaper LNR + TfW only tickets are not available from Wilmslow (or Stockport), only Manchester.

Sure, but I would board at Wilmslow and ask for a Manchester-Euston return, starting (and finishing) short. There's no break of journey restrictions on this ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You could buy that ticket online in about 25 seconds, especially as you know exactly what it is you're looking for.

There are issues with getting the right LNR tickets on planners for journeys with a change due to them containing an unimplementable restriction. Just buy at a TVM, will take 10 seconds and it won't argue.

 

[JonathanH]

Just buy at a TVM, will take 10 seconds and it won't argue.

Not so easy with the introduction of journey planner based TVMs.

 

[Starmill]

There are issues with getting the right LNR tickets on planners for journeys with a change due to them containing an unimplementable restriction. Just buy at a TVM, will take 10 seconds and it won't argue.

As long as it's not an Avanti TVM at Manchester Piccadilly. They don't have the London tickets on WMR/LNR/TFW available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not so easy with the introduction of journey planner based TVMs.

None of the stations served by LNR WCML services exclusively have that type.

 

[Mag_seven]

None of the stations served by LNR WCML services exclusively have that type.

The last time I was at Crewe, there were only 3 TVMs and they were all of the new "journey planner" type...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last time I was at Crewe, there were only 3 TVMs and they were all of the new "journey planner" type...

Are you sure? I am not aware of Avanti having any of these. What type?

 

[Starmill]

Are you sure? I am not aware of Avanti having any of these. What type?

It's correct. Crewe and Stockport only have the new IBM machines. They're similar to the Avanti website. (Stockport also has a Northern machine.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's correct. Crewe and Stockport only have the new IBM machines. They're similar to the Avanti website. (Stockport also has a Northern machine.)

Oh dear Given the non functionality of said website...

 

[Mag_seven]

Are you sure? I am not aware of Avanti having any of these. What type?

Yes I am sure

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's correct. Crewe and Stockport only have the new IBM machines. They're similar to the Avanti website. (Stockport also has a Northern machine.)

Are they a trial? None at Euston, I was going to have a play.

 

[Starmill]

Are they a trial? None at Euston, I was going to have a play.

They're a full replacement in process of being rolled out, along with ticket office machines and other equipment. They're not progressing very quickly, though.

 

[sonic2009]

I would strongly advise anyone who is looking for the cheapest possible tickets to actually state that up front if they need to use a ticket office for whatever reason, rather than booking somewhere that specifically accommodates that option, such as trainsplit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2021 ==


Neither the Avanti nor the Northern ticket machines at Manchester Piccadilly can sell these tickets. You have to be offered them by the ticket office, find them using the multiple small links you mention online, or already know they exist and specifically request them.

They should be programmed to offer those tickets though. A bit like the Birmingham ones offer the 3 routes to London.

 

[Starmill]

They should be programmed to offer those tickets though.

They most certainly should. However, the Northern machines don't offer them because there's no way to specify a train company or companies using them, and no way to buy a ticket without a journey. The Avanti West Coast machines a few days ago didn't offer them. They may have been made available since, but this seems thoroughly unlikely to me.

 

[sonic2009]

Unless I'm mistaken but isn't Manchester - London Terminals Any Permitted valid via Chesterfield even though there is a higher via Chesterfield fare.

Happy to be corrected.

 

[alistairlees]

Unless I'm mistaken but isn't Manchester - London Terminals Any Permitted valid via Chesterfield even though there is a higher via Chesterfield fare.

Happy to be corrected.

It is

 

[sonic2009]

It is

I thought so. Avanti twitter saying otherwise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought so. Avanti twitter saying otherwise.

Book it with an itinerary and that proves it.

 

[alistairlees]

Even their own useless booking engine gets this correct (if you add "via Chesterfield" to a London to Manchester journey query). The Avanto Social Media people should get this right.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==

I thought so. Avanti twitter saying otherwise.

Corrected.

 

[Kite159]

It's correct. Crewe and Stockport only have the new IBM machines. They're similar to the Avanti website. (Stockport also has a Northern machine.)

Do the new machines still offer some rangers (GM Wayfarer/Rail Ranger etc?) or have they disappeared with the new journey planning software?

 

[sonic2009]

Do the new machines still offer some rangers (GM Wayfarer/Rail Ranger etc?) or have they disappeared with the new journey planning software?

I noticed this evening at Crewe on the machine on my way home, that it mentioned Rovers couldn't be sold from the machine.

 

[Kite159]

I noticed this evening at Crewe on the machine on my way home, that it mentioned Rovers couldn't be sold from the machine.

Although from memory the only rover the older Avanti TVMs sold at Crewe was the West Midlands Day Ranger

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Unless I'm mistaken but isn't Manchester - London Terminals Any Permitted valid via Chesterfield even though there is a higher via Chesterfield fare.

Happy to be corrected.

Thought that the Manchester -> London Terminals "Any Permitted" tickets were usually always slightly more expensive than "via Chesterfield" routed tickets, this when comparing the exact same ticket type.