Trains without passenger access between units serving routes including tunnels

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Moderator note: split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...r-salisbury-fisherton-tunnel-31-10-21.224217/

Looking at Tiger Worldline, it looks like the three loosely diagrammed Romsey Portsmouth shuttles today are in the hands of two separate three car units (assuming 166s), and what looks to be a two car 165 on its own. I know it’s a 165 and not a 158 because it’s cited train formation D E.

 

[AdamWW]

Looking at Tiger Worldline, it looks like the three loosely diagrammed Romsey Portsmouth shuttles today are in the hands of two separate three car units (assuming 166s), and what looks to be a two car 165 on its own. I know it’s a 165 and not a 158 because it’s cited train formation D E.

That's an interesting point about the 165. I don't think I've seen this mentioned (though maybe I've missed it in a long thread), but lots of the GWR sets in that part of the world are a 165+166 - with no access between units and no end door to evacuate people through in a tunnel.

 

[swt_passenger]

That's an interesting point about the 165. I don't think I've seen this mentioned (though maybe I've missed it in a long thread), but lots of the GWR sets in that part of the world are a 165+166 - with no access between units and no end door to evacuate people through in a tunnel.

Probably not mentioned because it’s something that happens routinely all over the country, with a huge range of other rolling stock.

 

[AdamWW]

Probably not mentioned because it’s something that happens routinely all over the country, with a huge range of other rolling stock.

Of course it does, but it seemed relevant to me given there has been some discussion of the end gangway being used to get passengers out. It might have been somewhat harder to evacuate a 165/6 given the position in which the trains ended up and possibly not everyone here appreciates that it was a matter of luck that it was a 158.

 

[ainsworth74]

Of course it does, but it seemed relevant to me given there has been some discussion of the end gangway being used to get passengers out. It might have been somewhat harder to evacuate a 165/6 given the position in which the trains ended up and possibly not everyone here appreciates that it was a matter of luck that it was a 158.

They would have just used the normal doors instead. It's only an issue in situations where the tunnel is long enough that a whole train stop within it and narrow enough it wouldn't be possible to evacuate out the doors. Where that does happen then stock with emergency exits built into the cab is procured and only such equipped stock is cleared for use. See the Class 717s used down to Moorgate for example.

 

[ainsworth74]

Aha here is a demonstration of the 717 cab end exit:

 

[norbitonflyer]

They would have just used the normal doors instead. It's only an issue in situations where the tunnel is long enough that a whole train stop within it and narrow enough it wouldn't be possible to evacuate out the doors. Where that does happen then stock with emergency exits built into the cab is procured and only such equipped stock is cleared for use. See the Class 717s used down to Moorgate for example.

The 503s had to have emergency doors added in 1972 when the single track Wirral Loop line was built. It must have been done very quickly as I am unable to find any photographs of converted and unconverted units together.

 

[357]

When class 73 locomotives are used in the Moorgate tunnels, what is the evacuation route for the staff on the train? I suppose the driver can kick out a windscreen and jump (I also suppose not an official method) but what about the staff in the carriages of a test train?

 

[St. Paddy]

When class 73 locomotives are used in the Moorgate tunnels, what is the evacuation route for the staff on the train? I suppose the driver can kick out a windscreen and jump (I also suppose not an official method) but what about the staff in the carriages of a test train?

Can door normally, it’s a tight squeeze but doable. The Driver on a 717 has to use the normal cab door to egress and apply a short circuit bar before opening the emergency front door

 

[norbitonflyer]

End egress was an issue when the 365s were introduced on South Eastern because, unlike all existing SR main line stock, they were not gangwayed throughout, and they were expected to run through the single-track Shakespeare Tunnels near Dover. Don't know how it was resolved, but it must have been because al5thggough the 365s have long gone, the non-gangwayed Javelins now go that way.

(Boat trains formed of CEP/BEP stock with a non-gangwayed MLV (class 419) on the London end also went that way, but the passenger cars all had gangways and, in extremis, could be evacuated, either at the country end, or into the gap between the MLV and the adjacent (gangwayed) unit

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==

Cab door normally, it’s a tight squeeze but doable. The Driver on a 717 has to use the normal cab door to egress and apply a short circuit bar before opening the emergency front door

Cab doors open inwards, which helps.

 

[St. Paddy]

End egress was an issue when the 365s were introduced on South Eastern because, unlike all existing SR main line stock, they were not gangwayed throughout, and they were expected to run through the single-track Shakespeare Tunnels near Dover. Don't know how it was resolved, but it must have been because al5thggough the 365s have long gone, the non-gangwayed Javelins now go that way.

(Boat trains formed of CEP/BEP stock with a non-gangwayed MLV (class 419) on the London end also went that way, but the passenger cars all had gangways and, in extremis, could be evacuated, either at the country end, or into the gap between the MLV and the adjacent (gangwayed) unit

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==


Cab doors open inwards, which helps.

I assume you mean class 73 doors open inward as 717 cab doors are plug type that open outward

 

[O L Leigh]

That's an interesting point about the 165. I don't think I've seen this mentioned (though maybe I've missed it in a long thread), but lots of the GWR sets in that part of the world are a 165+166 - with no access between units and no end door to evacuate people through in a tunnel.

It's not a blanket requirement, nor is it specific to single-track tunnels. The deciding factor is clearance within the tunnel. Some are quite generous, so there's adequate space to get a ladder up to the doors.

I do, however, appreciate that this thread has been split from the discussion about the collision at Salisbury and, therefore, there may be specific issues related to evacuation in that particular instance. Where you have a disarticulated vehicle wedged up against the tunnel wall by another vehicle, accessing any of the side doors would be all but impossible and, depending on the degree of disarticulation, it may not be possible to get through the gangway door either (but then that may be true of any type of rail vehicle).

 

[30907]

(Boat trains formed of CEP/BEP stock with a non-gangwayed MLV (class 419) on the London end also went that way, but the passenger cars all had gangways and, in extremis, could be evacuated, either at the country end, or into the gap between the MLV and the adjacent (gangwayed) unit.

But non-gangwayed 2-Haps also went through Shakespeare Tunnel.

 

[CFRAIL]

End egress was an issue when the 365s were introduced on South Eastern because, unlike all existing SR main line stock, they were not gangwayed throughout, and they were expected to run through the single-track Shakespeare Tunnels near Dover. Don't know how it was resolved, but it must have been because al5thggough the 365s have long gone, the non-gangwayed Javelins now go that way.

(Boat trains formed of CEP/BEP stock with a non-gangwayed MLV (class 419) on the London end also went that way, but the passenger cars all had gangways and, in extremis, could be evacuated, either at the country end, or into the gap between the MLV and the adjacent (gangwayed) unit

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==


Cab doors open inwards, which helps.

The 395 stock generally operate as a 6 car unit, the cab doors open inwards which allow an evacuation. Any 12 car formations have the passengers removed from the rear 6 before passing through the tunnels.

 

[mmh]

The 395 stock generally operate as a 6 car unit, the cab doors open inwards which allow an evacuation. Any 12 car formations have the passengers removed from the rear 6 before passing through the tunnels.

No class 395 door opens outwards - they have pocket passenger doors, not plug, like the rest of the Hitachi trains in Britain.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==

End egress was an issue when the 365s were introduced on South Eastern because, unlike all existing SR main line stock, they were not gangwayed throughout, and they were expected to run through the single-track Shakespeare Tunnels near Dover. Don't know how it was resolved, but it must have been because al5thggough the 365s have long gone, the non-gangwayed Javelins now go that way.

The Hastings / Thumper units existed, which makes me wonder if the "issue" was not resolved!

 

[75A]

But non-gangwayed 2-Haps also went through Shakespeare Tunnel.

They also reqularly went through the tunnels on the Coastway East & West lines.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So how did they get around the Javelins working through Shakespeare Tunnel?

 

[DanNCL]

Tyne & Wear Metro uses pairs of non-walkthrough units on all services. The tunnels through Newcastle city centre have side evacuation walkways, but they’re not actually wide enough to be classed as evacuation routes as such, so the routine evacuation procedure is to shift passengers off the walkway onto the track as soon as they’re clear of the train. For reference both the cab doors and passenger doors open outwards.

 

[CFRAIL]

No class 395 door opens outwards - they have pocket passenger doors, not plug, like the rest of the Hitachi trains in Britain.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==


The Hastings / Thumper units existed, which makes me wonder if the "issue" was not resolved!

The cab doors absolutely DO open inwards, this is the method of evacuation used if needed in a tunnel.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2021 ==

So how did they get around the Javelins working through Shakespeare Tunnel?

Generally they're 6 car units so not an issue, cab doors open inwards for evacuation purposes. If a service is formed of 12 coaches all passengers are moved into the front 6 at Dover Priory/Folkestone Central. When they operated as 12's for the golf open recently, the rear 6 had a second driver/OBM.

 

[galwhv69]

465's between Victoria & Bromley South/Orpington usually run as 2 X 4 cars through the tunnel at Sydenham Hill

 

[norbitonflyer]

465's between Victoria & Bromley South/Orpington usually run as 2 X 4 cars through the tunnel at Sydenham Hill

That's a double track tunnel

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2021 ==

They also reqularly went through the tunnels on the Coastway East & West lines.

Those are also double track tunnels. The issue was with the single-track Shakespeare Tunnels

 

[galwhv69]

That's a double track tunnel

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Nov 2021 ==


Those are also double track tunnels. The issue was with the single-track Shakespeare Tunnels

Apologies, didn't realise this thread was for single track tunnels

 

[wobman]

Tfw class 175 are in multiple on many routes, plus they always have just the 1 guard. The unions have asked for 2 guards but both atw and tfw have said 1 guard is safe.

People say avant voyagers run in multiple but they have a lot more traincrew, so both units have traincrew on board.

One advantage once tfw have the 197 fleet these problems will go away.

 

[75A]

Nor did I.

 

[wobman]

The title doesn't say single bore tunnels !

 

[gimmea50anyday]

TPE 185s through Yarm, Morley and Standedge tunnels don't have end gangways and work in multiple

 

[norbitonflyer]

Apologies, didn't realise this thread was for single track tunnels

The thread doesn't say so. However, I don't think emergency egress was ever perceived to be an issue in double track tunnels, as there will always be room to get out on the side away from the tunnel wall - even possibly for another train to draw alongside for passengers to cross over into.

 

[Doomotron]

Don't know how it was resolved, but it must have been because al5thggough the 365s have long gone, the non-gangwayed Javelins now go that way.

I'm not sure if the 365s ever went that way (I'm too young to have travelled on them anyway!), but when the 395s were being introduced the track in the tunnels was pushed as close as possible to one wall to create a gap large enough for passengers. There's a photo of it somewhere, and it was quite a squeeze!

Any 12 car formations have the passengers removed from the rear 6 before passing through the tunnels.

I've never seen this happen (not that I've been on one of these 12-coach services) but if it is true it does seem to be a strange process. Most passengers would have left by Dover so the rear unit isn't really worth having afterwards. Really it would make more sense uncoupling the rear unit at Dover, or perhaps uncoupling at Folkestone and driving the unit into Folkestone East sidings. Anyway, I guess I have another service for my bucket list...