Possible suspicious activity

[RPI]

That must be a lot of comp tickets?

 

[Kaius26]

That must be a lot of comp tickets?

I did not use them every day I used them sparingly

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2021 ==

Where could I get legal advice?

 

[RPI]

What tickets did you use on the days that you didn't use comp tickets?

You can get legal advice from a solicitor, I believe that there are some who specialise in fare evasion if you Google.

 

[Kaius26]

What tickets did you use on the days that you didn't use comp tickets?

You can get legal advice from a solicitor, I believe that there are some who specialise in fare evasion if you Google.

I had normal ticket I bought from the station and e ticket I had purchased online

 

[Haywain]

I had normal ticket I bought from the station and e ticket I had purchased online

The amount of compensation due under Delay Repay is directly related to the fares paid. If you claimed while using complimentary tickets, you shouldn’t have done.

 

[AlterEgo]

For the period they are saying is suspicious I used a complimentary ticket

If it was complimentary, as in free, how have you managed to obtain refunds and/or compensation on it?

 

[SuspectUsual]

The amount of compensation due under Delay Repay is directly related to the fares paid. If you claimed while using complimentary tickets, you shouldn’t have done.

That isn’t strictly true. If the delay is long enough to trigger a free ticket as one of the compensation options (30+ minutes from memory), using a free ticket can lead to a claim for an additional free ticket (or tickets if the delay is long enough). But if the OP is commuting to work, I’m assuming he doesn’t live that far away, so being 30+ late repeatedly seems unlikely

 

[AlterEgo]

That isn’t strictly true. If the delay is long enough to trigger a free ticket as one of the compensation options (30+ minutes from memory), using a free ticket can lead to a claim for an additional free ticket (or tickets if the delay is long enough). But if the OP is commuting to work, I’m assuming he doesn’t live that far away, so being 30+ late repeatedly seems unlikely

Northern Delay repay starts at 15 minutes.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Northern Delay repay starts at 15 minutes.

Yes, but 15-29 minutes is only payable as an amount of money (in whatever form) based on the cost of the ticket. So using a free ticket DR effectively starts at 30 minutes.

 

[furlong]

Which stations were you travelling between?

Have you kept all the Complimentary Travel Passes you made claims against?
Do you still have some more that you haven't used yet?

Have you kept all your other tickets, or can you find some proof of purchase such as a card statement showing some or all of the transactions?

You can imagine that the interviewers might be seeking to match up the journeys you made over a particular period with the variety of tickets you used, wanting to make sure that every journey was correctly paid for. They will have access to CCTV at least for recent journeys and in-person ticket purchases.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Nov 2021 ==

So an annual season ticket? Say an average of one delay of more than 30 minutes per week. Maybe 50 free (single) tickets in a year? Use them after the season expires - that's a month or so of free journeys. But why would you not use them up consecutively and then buy another annual season?

On any given day, what determined whether you would use up a couple of complimentary single tickets or buy a new one?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

If I have understood the OP correctly, the position is as follows:

1) OP held a season ticket for their regular journey (let's call it stations A to B). On a number of occasions (on the basis of post #8 at least 32 occasions) their A-B journey (or the B-A return journey) was delayed by at least 30 minutes and so delay repay was claimed in the form of a Northern complementary ticket.
2) The season ticket expired. The OP continued travelling between A and B, using (post #34) tickets bought at the station or online, or on at least 32 occasions the complementary tickets already held. A number of these journeys resulted in further claims for delay repay. It seems that delay repay was claimed for some journeys made using the complementary tickets.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to sound like the railway here, and ask some questions where the answer might not show the OP in the best light. But that's so that we can understand quite what has happened, and so say whether we think that the railway has a leg to stand on in wanting to interview the OP and maybe take them to court.

a) Is what I have written above an accurate summary of what you (the OP) have told us? If so, then
b) when you were claiming delay repay in step (1), were all the claims for journeys at the same sort of time? So were you always claiming for trains leaving A for B at the start of the morning, or going from B to A at the end of the working day? If your pattern was different, is there a reason for that? I can see that you could have a reason for travelling at odd times - you might have variable shifts.
c) did you actually make the journeys from A to B (and back again) that you claimed delay repay for?
d) or did you obtain the complementary tickets from somewhere else (buying them from someone on the internet or a man in a pub or something: were they passed on to you by a friend or relative*)?

e) Looking at step (2), did you claim delay repay on any journeys that you made using a complementary ticket? If so, in what form did you claim the delay repay (money back, or another complementary ticket)?
f) when you were claiming delay repay in step (2), were all the claims for journeys at the same sort of time? So were you always claiming for trains leaving A for B at the start of the morning, or going from B to A at the end of the working day? If your pattern was different, is there a reason for that? I can see that you could have a reason for travelling at odd times - you might have variable shifts.
g) did you actually make the journeys from A to B (and back again) that you claimed delay repay for?

(Yes, I know questions (f) and (g) are almost the same as (b) and (c) - but I'm asking about different stages in the process, so the answers might be different.)

I'm asking all these questions because there are a number of points where the OP could have broken the rules: they might not have been entitled to the complementary tickets in the first place, or they may not have been able to claim delay repay in the second place. I do have to say that for a regular commute 32 complementary tickets seems to be a remarkably high number to have obtained so (in practice if not in law) there's something of a need for the OP to show why they had that many.

The OP also asks if there is any way they can get legal advice. The suggestion that someone has made upthread of asking if the OP is a member of a union is a good one - it's a quite frequent benefit of union membership. If that's not available, it's said that quite a few solicitors will offer an initial free consultation. But as far as I can make out, legal aid only cuts in for criminal cases if the case gets as far as being arrested or going to court. https://www.gov.uk/legal-aid (and the following pages) have something to say about this - see what it says on https://www.gov.uk/legal-aid/eligibility:

Criminal cases​

You have the right to free legal advice if you’re questioned at a police station.

You’ll automatically get legal aid for legal representation in court if you’re under 16 (or under 18 and in full-time education) or on certain benefits.

Alternatives to legal aid​

If you cannot get legal aid, you may be able to get free advice from:

• the Law Centres Network
• Citizens Advice
• AdviceNow

You can also pay for advice from a local legal adviser or solicitor.

If the OP can't get legal advice and does go to interview, then they should at least ask whether they can bring someone with them. If the OP has a friend or relative who knows about the law, then so much the better - but just taking someone sensible who can take notes of what is said, and who can (if necessary) give moral and emotional support is a really good idea.

*I'm not sure if Northern Rail complementary tickets are transferable or not. Maybe someone here knows without us having to start a major search through the rules?

 

[Haywain]

Where could I get legal advice?

Your union, if you are a member of one, may offer free legal advice and household insurance policies may also offer free legal advice. If neither of these is any help many local solicitors will offer a free consultation. In the last resort you should consider paying for legal assistance.

 

[lyndhurst25]

*I'm not sure if Northern Rail complementary tickets are transferable or not. Maybe someone here knows without us having to start a major search through the rules?

One a handful that I still have, albeit from 3-4 years ago. Not sure if the Terms and Conditions have changed since then. Out of my collection, only one has the Customer Name pre-filled-in on the other side.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

One a handful that I still have, albeit from 3-4 years ago. Not sure if the Terms and Conditions have changed since then. Out of my collection, only one has the Customer Name pre-filled-in on the other side.

Thank you. If nothing else, confirms that I can't spell 'complimentary'.

 

[skyhigh]

One a handful that I still have, albeit from 3-4 years ago. Not sure if the Terms and Conditions have changed since then. Out of my collection, only one has the Customer Name pre-filled-in on the other side.

The process of issuing the vouchers has changed since then, they should now all be issued with the name prefilled (there were issues with them being sold on via ebay etc).

 

[reb0118]

I may be a bit naive here but surely the compensation for delay repay is based on the price of the ticket used. So if the ticket is complimentary (as in £0 paid) then even 100% of £0 is £0.

What exactly has been claimed on?

 

[AlterEgo]

I would advise the OP not to post any incriminating answers in the thread, at this stage.

Get a solicitor, be honest about what has happened, and they will advise you a) if attending the interview is a good idea, and b) how to either avoid trouble and defend yourself, or mitigate the results.

 

[_toommm_]

I may be a bit naive here but surely the compensation for delay repay is based on the price of the ticket used. So if the ticket is complimentary (as in £0 paid) then even 100% of £0 is £0.

What exactly has been claimed on?

You can claim comp tickets as delay repay when you travel with comp tickets. I used one comp ticket on a return from Carlisle to Burley Park, and got two in return because a delay meant I missed the last train of the night.

In theory, the amount of free tickets you have can grow exponentially.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I may be a bit naive here but surely the compensation for delay repay is based on the price of the ticket used. So if the ticket is complimentary (as in £0 paid) then even 100% of £0 is £0.

What exactly has been claimed on?

You can claim comp tickets as delay repay when you travel with comp tickets. I used one comp ticket on a return from Carlisle to Burley Park, and got two in return because a delay meant I missed the last train of the night.

In theory, the amount of free tickets you have can grow exponentially.

As I’ve said previously, free ticket as compensation becomes an option at 30 minutes delay. So if travelling on a free ticket, delay repay effectively isn’t available for 15-29 minute delays (as the ticket didn’t cost anything)

 

[robbeech]

For the delayed trains did you claim Delay Repay from Northern or refund the tickets in the app? That part is very important. I've come across a lot of passengers of late who seem to think the correct course of action to claim for delays is to refund the ticket in the app rather than go through the delay repay process - doing that could land you in hot water legally.

Indeed several operators actually tell passengers to make this incorrect claim that could land them in aforementioned hot water. Northern are one on these, EMR are another.

I think one thing that is clear here is that whether the OP is guilty of any wrong doing (deliberately or not) or indeed not guilty of anything it IS now their problem and failing to act will end up with the operator trying to obtain potentially hundreds of pounds from them so it’s crucial to act now even if they are innocent as you are guilt until proven innocent on the railway.

 

[MotCO]

As I’ve said previously, free ticket as compensation becomes an option at 30 minutes delay. So if travelling on a free ticket, delay repay effectively isn’t available for 15-29 minute delays (as the ticket didn’t cost anything)

I understand what you are saying, but if the original comp ticket is in lieu of a cash sum, if that cash sum had been used to part pay or fully pay for a new ticket for a journey which was delayed, then a cash sum DR payment should be received after 15 minutes for that delayed journey. You may be quoting the rules; I'm just questioning the fairness of it.

 

[SuspectUsual]

I understand what you are saying, but if the original comp ticket is in lieu of a cash sum, if that cash sum had been used to part pay or fully pay for a new ticket for a journey which was delayed, then a cash sum DR payment should be received after 15 minutes for that delayed journey. You may be quoting the rules; I'm just questioning the fairness of it.

I’ve no idea whether what I’ve quoted is the rules, but it’s categorically what happens in reality. I’ve had multiple DR claims when travelling on a free ticket - every one for 15-29 has failed, every one for 30+ has been successful without appeal

 

[robbeech]

I’ve no idea whether what I’ve quoted is the rules, but it’s categorically what happens in reality. I’ve had multiple DR claims when travelling on a free ticket - every one for 15-29 has failed, every one for 30+ has been successful without appeal

They’re definitely more than happy to pay out another comp ticket when delayed enough and travelling on a comp ticket. I’m sure it was documented somewhere but it might just have been a reply on social media I was looking at.

Edit :

This page states that if you are travelling on a free ticket and are delayed by 60 minutes then they’ll give you another. There’s no indication as to what they’ll do if anything for 30 minutes or indeed 120 minutes but surely if they accept you are delayed, whatever they pay out is their choice here so they cannot question that at a later date.

 

[pelli]

Here is what the the Northern Delay Repay information page says:

"Customers can also request to be compensated in the form of one or more free tickets for use on any Northern service." with a table showing that no free ticket is given for 15-29min, then 1 single for 30-59min, 1 return for 60-119min, 2 returns for 120min+

Then it is stated that "if you are travelling on a complimentary travel voucher and you suffer a delay of 60 minutes or more we will provide a replacement complimentary ticket." So being delayed on a free delay repay ticket can result in compensation in the form of more free tickets. However, the details appear to differ with the experiences reported by forum members here. It sounds like in practice the "free ticket" table is used again which pays compensation in various forms from 30min onward, whereas the website text implies that the delay has to be at least 60 minutes, and maybe that the compensation should be a like-for-like replacement of the original free ticket used.

As for the fairness of compensation not being available for 15-29min delays on a free ticket, I personally think it's balanced out by the fact that the free ticket payout is essentially double the cash payout (30-59min gets you a free single vs 50% of your single fare back, 60-119min gets you a free return vs 100% of your single fare back, 120+min gets you two free returns vs 100% of your return fare back), and also you can use the free ticket on a much more expensive journey than the one you were originally delayed on.

Edit: Snap!

 

[robbeech]

It’s rather difficult to follow (if indeed it is even known as yet) what issue Northern have with the OP’s travel. I’m assuming they don’t have a problem with them claiming free tickets from free tickets as whilst I wouldn’t put it past them this would be disastrous for their reputation when they were accused of prosecuting people for their own mistake. I can assume their suspicion comes from elsewhere.

 

[cakefiend]

Depending on your timescales, you could do a Subject Access Request under Data Protection legislation to see what the case or allegations against you are.

 

[skyhigh]

Depending on your timescales, you could do a Subject Access Request under Data Protection legislation to see what the case or allegations against you are.

Which they'd be able to decline as an exemption under GDPR

Law enforcement – the processing of personal data by competent authorities for law enforcement purposes is outside the UK GDPR’s scope

Exemptions

ico.org.uk

 

[island]

Which they'd be able to decline as an exemption under GDPR

Exemptions

ico.org.uk

Wrong – a TOC is not a "competent authority" within the meaning of UK GDPR/DPA 2018.

 

[skyhigh]

Wrong – a TOC is not a "competent authority" within the meaning of UK GDPR/DPA 2018.

Fair enough, I was reading that in conjunction with the section below that says

There are two parts to this exemption. The first part can apply if you process personal data for the purposes of:

• the prevention and detection of crime;
• the apprehension or prosecution of offenders; or
• the assessment or collection of a tax or duty or an imposition of a similar nature.

It exempts you from the UK GDPR’s provisions on:

• the right to be informed;

Apologies if I've misunderstood, (thankfully!) I don't really have to deal with GDPR in my role.

 

[island]

I only know because it's a trap I've fallen into in the past