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Pairing York to Northallerton by speed ?

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ainsworth74

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Anyway freight services do have to cross below York anyway and now it looks like they might be re-routed through the main train shed!
Freight has been doing that when it works best for donkeys years.
It's merely just a thought about which would be better considering the x amount of millions it will be for this proposed 2/2.5 mile flyover at Northallerton.
The flyover will be an order of magnitude cheaper than changing the line to pair by use rather than direction.

The flyover solution is probably several hundred million. What you've suggested is easily going to break a billion once you factor in all the changes to Thirsk, the OHLE, switches and crossing, signalling etc.
 
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Halifaxlad

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Freight has been doing that when it works best for donkeys years.

My point about routing it through the station is that more freight services will be further over to the East of the station.

The flyover will be an order of magnitude cheaper than changing the line to pair by use rather than direction.

The flyover solution is probably several hundred million. What you've suggested is easily going to break a billion once you factor in all the changes to Thirsk, the OHLE, switches and crossing, signalling etc.

I still don't get why so many think reinstating a platform face on what is currently the up fast line will somehow break the bank ?

I would rather see money spent on a diver under/flyover a Colton rather than at Northallerton. As for Northallerton I don't see how it can be justified simply to keep slow services on the left hand side especially when they already cross over just below York!

I do reiterate this was only an idea I had a while ago!
 

ainsworth74

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I still don't get why so many think reinstating a platform face on what is currently the up fast line will somehow break the bank ?
Sorry perhaps I'm confused? I thought the proposal was to change the current track layout between Skelton Junction (York) and Longlands Junction (Northallerton) from paired by direction (down slow, down fast, up fast, up slow) to paired by use (up fast, down fast, up slow, down slow)?

If that is the case then it isn't just a new platform face that will be required. You will need to redesign and commission the entire signalling system between those two locations, you will need to relay every junction and crossover between the two, you will need to make OLE changes (certainly at the remodelled junctions but possibly elsewhere) as well as make relevant changes to both Thirsk and Northallerton. Surely you can see how that costs far more than just remodelling Northallerton to include a flyover as per the Network Rail proposals?
 

Halifaxlad

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If that is the case then it isn't just a new platform face that will be required. You will need to redesign and commission the entire signalling system between those two locations, you will need to relay every junction and crossover between the two, you will need to make OLE changes (certainly at the remodelled junctions but possibly elsewhere) as well as make relevant changes to both Thirsk and Northallerton. Surely you can see how that costs far more than just remodelling Northallerton to include a flyover as per the Network Rail proposals?

All that is pretty much obvious, but so many including yourself have singled our Thirsk for some reason which is neither here nor there!

My earlier comment was specifically in relation to your comment about Thirsk!
 

ainsworth74

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All that is pretty much obvious, but so many including yourself have singled our Thirsk for some reason which is neither here nor there!

My earlier comment was specifically in relation to your comment about Thirsk!
I think you have me confused with someone else. I don't really give a monkeys about Thirsk because the reason this plan falls over is the extraordinarily high cost of making the necessary changes to infrastructure versus a simple flyover at Northallerton. As per my original comment on this thread:

Well a) I'm quite certain that this plan would make any grade separation at Northallerton look like small change and b) I'm not actually clear how it would solve the problem in the first place and indeed might actually make things worse...

This project will cost an order of magnitude more than installing a flyover at Northallerton and so it falls flat on it's face instantly in comparison to installing a flyover. Thirsk is neither here nor there as no-one will get as far as considering changes to Thirsk because none will be required when the idea of changing this section of the ECML from paired by direction to paired by use is looked at the costs would instantly kill it stone dea.

You may have been having some extended discussion with others about Thirsk but not with me.
 

swt_passenger

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It seems to me that if you approach Northallerton as paired by use, you‘d need to continue the four tracks through the station, in which case you still need more platforms there, at least if you want calls by both Darlington bound and Middlesbrough bound services.

Wasn’t a major criticism of the proposed ECML timetable about regular calls at Northallerton being wanted in both routes?
 

zwk500

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All that is pretty much obvious, but so many including yourself have singled our Thirsk for some reason which is neither here nor there!
What speed do you intend to have on the new Down Fast? (Current down slow, which is 60mph at the moment)
 

mike57

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Anyway freight services do have to cross below York anyway and now it looks like they might be re-routed through the main train shed!
Back in the day there were two through tracks between Platform 3 and 5 at York, I think they were removed at electrification, would there be any advantage in restoring one or both (Thinking particularly the southbound one)
 

zwk500

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Back in the day there were two through tracks between Platform 3 and 5 at York, I think they were removed at electrification, would there be any advantage in restoring one or both (Thinking particularly the southbound one)
In theory yes. However trying to tie it onto the existing layout at either end and the modifications to signals and OLE needed make it more money than its worth.
 

Ianno87

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In theory yes. However trying to tie it onto the existing layout at either end and the modifications to signals and OLE needed make it more money than its worth.

Through tracks make no difference to conflicts in the throat, and tying them in will probably reduce speeds overall, to the detriment of capacity.
 

zwk500

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Through tracks make no difference to conflicts in the throat, and tying them in will probably reduce speeds overall, to the detriment of capacity.
IF you got the right layout, the ability to split work on 5 and to recess freight without blocking 3 would be handy, but totally agree with you on the throat, speeds etc hence the 'more money than its worth' assessment
 

Halifaxlad

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You may have been having some extended discussion with others about Thirsk but not with me.

We certainly haven't been having a discussion about Thirsk, you mentioned Thirsk in your comment which appeared to pay particular providence to it, which I merely commented on!

In theory yes. However trying to tie it onto the existing layout at either end and the modifications to signals and OLE needed make it more money than its worth.

Through tracks make no difference to conflicts in the throat, and tying them in will probably reduce speeds overall, to the detriment of capacity.

For the 'more money than its worth' which ironically is how I feel about a 2/2.5 mile lone flyover and new line at Northallerton, it is actually being proposed to route more freight through the station as opposed to using the avoiding lines!
 

Ianno87

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For the 'more money than its worth' which ironically is how I feel about a 2/2.5 mile lone flyover and new line at Northallerton, it is actually being proposed to route more freight through the station as opposed to using the avoiding lines!

Except that the Northallerton idea has been proposed by railway professionals based on analysis and evidence of its benefits, solving an identified constraint, without impacting the Level Crossing.
 

Halifaxlad

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based on analysis and evidence of its benefits

Are you sure, as I don't think any work has been done in this regard ?

What they have certainly said is that:

"due to the very high order of magnitude cost of this option, it is recommended that thorough analysis of the socioeconomic costs and benefits of options should take place as development continues"


Funny enough there are proposals/plans to alter track and signaling through the station by railway professionals yet it is people on here declaring 'more money than its worth'.

Anyway regarding the OLE, isn't this in need of an upgrade/replacing anyway ?
 

zwk500

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Are you sure, as I don't think any work has been done in this regard ?
Absolutely 100% yes work has done. NR don't write a public document suggesting major infrastructure change without having tested it to see the benefits.
Funny enough there are proposals/plans to alter track and signaling through the station by railway professionals yet it is people on here declaring 'more money than its worth'.
The people making that assessment are people who have experience of such schemes as railway professionals. Notably, the proposals for York in the document you link do NOT include a through line between 3 and 5. They do include new platforms, which will be incredibly helpful (but might require some work done to the IECC).
Anyway regarding the OLE, isn't this in need of an upgrade/replacing anyway ?
There is a massive difference between a like-for-like replacement and having to redesign the system for new track positions. It's cheaper to make changes to the layout when you'd have to renew anyway but it's still more expensive to change than to renew.
 

Halifaxlad

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Absolutely 100% yes work has done. NR don't write a public document suggesting major infrastructure change without having tested it to see the benefits.

I don't see why they would have been any testing done, freight services already go under the ECML and the way its designed wouldn't have an impact. The proposed flyover is simply an alternative to the dive under!

The people making that assessment are people who have experience of such schemes as railway professionals.

Are you referring to the people suggesting that scheme or the people suggesting adding additional track is more money than its worth due to OLE and signaling changes that are to be modified anyway ?

There is a massive difference between a like-for-like replacement and having to redesign the system for new track positions.

The track would barely move!
 

zwk500

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I don't see why they would have been any testing done, freight services already go under the ECML and the way its designed wouldn't have an impact. The proposed flyover is simply an alternative to the dive under!
Future service growth would need to be assessed, especially the impact on passenger services of different layouts at Northallerton. In particular, removing the Level crossings (as is a potential option) will have an impact because freights now have to go through the station rather than avoiding the platforms.
Are you referring to the people suggesting that scheme or the people suggesting adding additional track is more money than its worth due to OLE and signaling changes that are to be modified anyway ?
I'm referring to the people on this forum who are explaining that it's not as simple as you think.
The track would barely move!
A pantograph head isn't very wide.
 

Halifaxlad

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Future service growth would need to be assessed, especially the impact on passenger services of different layouts at Northallerton. In particular, removing the Level crossings (as is a potential option) will have an impact because freights now have to go through the station rather than avoiding the platforms.

I hardly doubt that has been assessed since as part of this proposal it is also proposed to extend the slow lines through the station!

I'm referring to the people on this forum who are explaining that it's not as simple as you think.

At no-point have I ever claimed it to be simple!

A pantograph head isn't very wide.

If there is a current issue with pantographs at the moment then clearly that needs to be address anyway!
 

zwk500

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I hardly doubt that has been assessed since as part of this proposal it is also proposed to extend the slow lines through the station!
I don't know why you are insisting this work hasn't been done at any level.
At no-point have I ever claimed it to be simple!
You've implied it would be easier than a flyover.
If there is a current issue with pantographs at the moment then clearly that needs to be address anyway!
You've missed my point - it's fine where it is. However, if you move the track even by just a foot or so, the wires would no longer line up with the pantograph, and you'd have to redesign the OLE.
 

TrickyHex

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Do we know if there are any plans to put a flyover in at Skelton junction north of York taking the down slow over the fast lines. This seems a bit of a pinch point. This would get freight onto the York avoiding line more easily and sort the passenger trains into the London and Leeds lines more effectively… An alternative to having any grade separation at Colton junction…. Just a thought!
 

zwk500

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Do we know if there are any plans to put a flyover in at Skelton junction north of York taking the down slow over the fast lines. This seems a bit of a pinch point. This would get freight onto the York avoiding line more easily and sort the passenger trains into the London and Leeds lines more effectively… An alternative to having any grade separation at Colton junction…. Just a thought!
As has been said upthread, the crossing move across the Fast lines isn't really a problem at Skelton Bridge Jn. Also, at the southern end of York the avoiding lines don't connect to the Normanton lines so you'd end up having to cross all the freight back across the (comparatively busier) lines at Colton North Jn if it was aiming for Doncaster.
 

Ianno87

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Are you sure, as I don't think any work has been done in this regard ?

What they have certainly said is that:

"due to the very high order of magnitude cost of this option, it is recommended that thorough analysis of the socioeconomic costs and benefits of options should take place as development continues"


Funny enough there are proposals/plans to alter track and signaling through the station by railway professionals yet it is people on here declaring 'more money than its worth'.

Anyway regarding the OLE, isn't this in need of an upgrade/replacing anyway ?

OK, to explain...

Somebody has devised a Train Service Specification of all services to be accommodated, to meet connectivity and capacity requirements and aspirations. Basically ignoring the capital cost of delivering these.

Then somebody has attempted to timetable it on the network, and identified the capacity interventions needed to accommodate that Train Service Specification. Basically a scientific "if you want these services then you need this infrastructure".

What has (in effect) not been done is the full analysis of the cost of that infrastructure intervention against the benefits it realises (I.e. the additional services).

I.e. currently the direct benefits of the service enhancement are difficult to stack up against the cost of the intervention, so needs "bigger picture" benefits to be assessed.
 
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