Passengers not routinely offered cheaper tickets.

[allotments]

Why are passengers at booking office windows not routinely being offered a choice including cheaper "West Midlands/London NW Railway only" tickets for example between Euston and Crewe?

Even when I specify a ticket such as a super off peak return LNWR only with senior railcard (£22.80) most booking offices have great difficulty finding it. The software in use by for example Greater Anglia, Southeastern and Transport for Wales doesn't present these tickets up front and it's only by filtering out Avanti or by limiting a search to West Midlands Trains that these fares appear. Surely these tickets should be in the unfiltered list? But they are not.

Selling a more expensive ticket than necessary is what I would describe as mis-selling. So many passengers are presumably being overcharged by a wide margin.

The LNWR stopping service to Crewe is typically only about 30 minutes slower than a faster expensive and very likely unnecessary option valid on any train including Avanti but the price escalates up as far as £187.55

Ticketing apps show the cheaper tickets up front. So what's going on with booking office software that hides them?

The median time taken to find the cheaper LNWR ticket is over 5 minutes and then only with my insistence that it's possible, ongoing encouragement and tips about filtering.

Booking office personnel have invariably tried their best but their software systems and data seem sub-optimal and misleading.

 

[JonathanH]

This would appear to come down to ticket issuing systems being based on an itinerary and the fastest services appearing on screen.

Most passengers want to make their journey using the quickest possible route and that is how journey planners are designed.

The LNWR stopping service to Crewe is typically only about 30 minutes slower than a faster expensive and very likely unnecessary option valid on any train including Avanti but the price escalates up as far as £187.55

The LNR fares escalate up to £79.25 (with your railcard) if you want to make a direct comparison.

Even when I specify a ticket such as a super off peak return LNWR only with senior railcard (£22.80) most booking offices have great difficulty finding it. The software in use by for example Greater Anglia, Southeastern and Transport for Wales doesn't present these tickets up front and it's only by filtering out Avanti or by limiting a search to West Midlands Trains that these fares appear. Surely these tickets should be in the unfiltered list? But they are not.

The ability to filter out operators is already more advanced than public ticket issuing systems often offer - I appreciate that Trainsplit / Trainscanbecheaper offers this functionality.

How much awareness should ticket office staff have of tickets 'off their patch'?

 

[allotments]

Most passengers want to make their journey using the quickest possible route and that is how journey planners are designed

Surely many passengers want to choose the most appropriate option factoring in train schedule, travelling time and price. Apps offer that up front.

I would suggest that if booking offices are to survive they need to offer a service significantly better than an app or a ticket vending machine.

 

[Wallsendmag]

We use the same system as SWR and it should be fairly easy to find and sell that ticket. You can enter the route and ticket type and hey presto it appears

 

[462cd]

Those tickets can even be hard to find online, as discussed briefly on this recent thread: Travel on West Midlands Trains' LNR brand from Liverpool to London

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those tickets can even be hard to find online, as discussed briefly on this recent thread: Travel on West Midlands Trains' LNR brand from Liverpool to London

And then you have the restriction "a connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time" which the planners can't implement, so sometimes the cheapest one is not shown when it should be.

 

[janb]

Why are passengers at booking office windows not routinely being offered a choice including cheaper "West Midlands/London NW Railway only" tickets for example between Euston and Crewe?

Even when I specify a ticket such as a super off peak return LNWR only with senior railcard (£22.80) most booking offices have great difficulty finding it. The software in use by for example Greater Anglia, Southeastern and Transport for Wales doesn't present these tickets up front and it's only by filtering out Avanti or by limiting a search to West Midlands Trains that these fares appear. Surely these tickets should be in the unfiltered list? But they are not.

Greater Anglia and TfW use Fujitsu STAR I believe? Couldn't be easier. The member of staff has to have the wit to use London Euston and not London Terminals, but other than that plonk in Euston to Crewe, press Get Fares and the WM/LNWR fares will be in the list. I choose to list my fares in ascending order so that I am offering the cheapest, so the fare you refer to would be 2nd on my list.

If they are using Journey Planner to try to get an itinerary/train times then yes exclude Avanti (which is 2 clicks of a mouse) would make life easier.

 

[miami]

Why are passengers at booking office windows not routinely being offered a choice including cheaper "West Midlands/London NW Railway only" tickets for example between Euston and Crewe?

At least the London-Crewe shows up obviously on the LNWR site.

Try to buy the £45 walk up almost-any-time-of-day London-Manchester fare, or the £35 super-off-peak, it's buried deep deep down online, playing into the idea that the railway is expensive.

Even looking on the LNWR site doesn't show the LNWR+ATW ticket by default, you have to spot the tiny link at the bottom

> Results are based on end-to-end tickets for the fastest available trains. Click here to check if slower routes with cheaper tickets are available.

On trainline they just try to flog you a coach ticket though -- https://imgur.com/XQFOBDq.png -- I assume a problem on their site at the moment, but last time I checked the fare was hidden behind two tiny links.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Most passengers want to make their journey using the quickest possible route

I'd be interested to see a citation for that. My reading of the research - and, well, large parts of Chiltern Railways' business model - is that passengers weigh up cost and convenience (Generalised Journey Time or similar); many (not all) are happy to have a slower journey for a cheaper price. But if you have some evidence otherwise I'd be genuinely interested.

 

[Haywain]

I'd be interested to see a citation for that. My reading of the research - and, well, large parts of Chiltern Railways' business model - is that passengers weigh up cost and convenience (Generalised Journey Time or similar); many (not all) are happy to have a slower journey for a cheaper price. But if you have some evidence otherwise I'd be genuinely interested.

Experience of selling tickets tells me that it is absolutely true. And if the fastest journey isn't the highest priority, they tend to be horrified by the idea of having to change trains where a direct service is also available.

 

[allotments]

Today's experience:

Me: “I’d like a period return CRE-EUS with senior railcard travelling on 12:33 outward please”

Booking office clerk: “That will be £56.75”

Me: “You can do better than that I think . Are you telling me your software doesn't show you the best fares?”

Clerk: “That is the best fare ”

Me: “Who sets the software up to say what the price is?”

Clerk: “This is the country wide software”

Me: “That’s just the way it is, you don't control it?”

Clerk “No. Why what have you seen?”

Me: “If you go on the 12:33 you can get a super off peak return for £22:80 ”

Clerk: “I haven't got it...”

Me: “Ummm... Your colleague found it eventually, previously when I was here ”

Clerk shows me the main screen then the detailed list next screen... scrolling down finds £29.70.

Me: “£29.70? That's off peak.”

Scrolls down further...

Clerk: “£22:80 super off peak”

Found it after 2 min 44 sec. Well it seemed like 5 minutes.

 

[yorkie]

This is not untypical of the sort of experience you get at many ticket offices.

Personally I avoid this by going to Trainsplit and selecting value mode, choose an e-ticket, and the whole process can take just a few seconds.

The rail industry needs to be careful as not offering the cheapest fare is a breach of the rules of impartial retailing as well as being a breach of consumer law. There are already a couple of class action claims against train companies, and there is definitely scope for more.

 

[Starmill]

I would strongly advise anyone who is looking for the cheapest possible tickets to actually state that up front if they need to use a ticket office for whatever reason, rather than booking somewhere that specifically accommodates that option, such as trainsplit.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2021 ==

At least the London-Crewe shows up obviously on the LNWR site.

Try to buy the £45 walk up almost-any-time-of-day London-Manchester fare, or the £35 super-off-peak, it's buried deep deep down online, playing into the idea that the railway is expensive.

Even looking on the LNWR site doesn't show the LNWR+ATW ticket by default, you have to spot the tiny link at the bottom

> Results are based on end-to-end tickets for the fastest available trains. Click here to check if slower routes with cheaper tickets are available.

On trainline they just try to flog you a coach ticket though -- https://imgur.com/XQFOBDq.png -- I assume a problem on their site at the moment, but last time I checked the fare was hidden behind two tiny links.

Neither the Avanti nor the Northern ticket machines at Manchester Piccadilly can sell these tickets. You have to be offered them by the ticket office, find them using the multiple small links you mention online, or already know they exist and specifically request them.

 

[gray1404]

By contrast I've never had any problem obtaining the LNR fares at Liverpool Lime Street when I've asked for the ticket. In fact, I've had the staff there give me a choice of the two tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

Today's experience:

Me: “I’d like a period return CRE-EUS with senior railcard travelling on 12:33 outward please”

Booking office clerk: “That will be £56.75”

Me: “You can do better than that I think . Are you telling me your software doesn't show you the best fares?”

Clerk: “That is the best fare ”

Me: “Who sets the software up to say what the price is?”

Clerk: “This is the country wide software”

Me: “That’s just the way it is, you don't control it?”

Clerk “No. Why what have you seen?”

Me: “If you go on the 12:33 you can get a super off peak return for £22:80 ”

Clerk: “I haven't got it...”

Me: “Ummm... Your colleague found it eventually, previously when I was here ”

Clerk shows me the main screen then the detailed list next screen... scrolling down finds £29.70.

Me: “£29.70? That's off peak.”

Scrolls down further...

Clerk: “£22:80 super off peak”

Found it after 2 min 44 sec. Well it seemed like 5 minutes.

You could buy that ticket online in about 25 seconds, especially as you know exactly what it is you're looking for.

 

[AlbertBeale]

You could buy that ticket online in about 25 seconds, especially as you know exactly what it is you're looking for.

Indeed - but if you don't already know what you want, other than in conceptual terms (because you don't know what's available - ie like most punters), then going to a station ticket office ought to be the one place where you do find the "best" (whatever that might be for you) ticket.

 

[Haywain]

I can’t help wondering why, when you knew you wanted a Super Off Peak Return, restricted to travel with LNR, you started with this:

Me: “I’d like a period return CRE-EUS with senior railcard travelling on 12:33 outward please

 

[AM9]

For journeys that make using less obvious (to a booking office) tickets, I usually get the correct description from BR Fares website and buy at the St Albans window. Despite much criticism here, the TL booking offices usually find what I want easily enough. Stating the name (and letters such as OPR) can sometimes help. If it isn't found quickly the price usually fixes it. NRE and TOC journey planners are OK as a back-up for routings that might be disputed, but BRF and a good splitting site Trainsplit or it's successor (can't remember the name), normally gives the best results.

 

[Ianno87]

Indeed - but if you don't already know what you want, other than in conceptual terms (because you don't know what's available - ie like most punters), then going to a station ticket office ought to be the one place where you do find the "best" (whatever that might be for you) ticket.

Where do we draw the line? Should staff in Sainsbury's tell you that tins of beans are cheaper in Tesco?

 

[Class800]

I find my local ticket office keeps wanting the itinerary even for flexible tickets, and this causes a lot of confusion, and inevitably makes it a struggle to get the best fare

 

[alistairlees]

There are different types of customers, who vary in their price and time sensitivity. Some will want the cheapest possible ticket, even if that means a longer journey or a change; others will want the quickest possible journey (or will need to arrive by or depart at a certain time), and be prepared to pay a higher price for their ticket. Whether customers are trying to buy a ticket at a station booking office, a TVM or online they should be offered the choice, where it's available, so that they can make the choice that best suits them.

Assuming that customers want to travel on the fastest trains (and therefore not telling them about cheaper alternatives), or saying that customers who want the cheaper ticket should have expert knowledge in order to ask the right questions / use specialist websites is, at best, not customer-focused at all. At worst it's blatant mis-selling.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Nov 2021 ==

Where do we draw the line? Should staff in Sainsbury's tell you that tins of beans are cheaper in Tesco?

There is no impartial retailing requirement for Tesco / Sainsbury's. There is in rail retailing, unless it is clearly stated otherwise. The prevalence of TOC brands has been used to ddeliberately confuse this position (and, thus, customers), but the requirement has not gone away.

 

[Ianno87]

There is no impartial retailing requirement for Tesco / Sainsbury's. There is in rail retailing, unless it is clearly stated otherwise. The prevalence of TOC brands has been used to ddeliberately confuse this position (and, thus, customers), but the requirement has not gone away.

Is spending time to root out a cheaper fare (which by definition involves changing the revenue received by one operator over another) considered partial or impartial?

You could argue it is being partial to the fare setter/revenue reciever of the cheaper ticket.

 

[Watershed]

Where do we draw the line? Should staff in Sainsbury's tell you that tins of beans are cheaper in Tesco?

Supermarket analogies rarely work!

But if you insist - this would be like going to a member of Sainsbury's staff, asking them what their cheapest tins of beans are, and them telling you it's Heinz - neglecting to mention that they have own brand beans for half the price.

Is spending time to root out a cheaper fare (which by definition involves changing the revenue received by one operator over another) considered partial or impartial?

You could argue it is being partial to the fare setter/revenue reciever of the cheaper ticket.

What utter tripe. Impartial retailing has been around for 25 years now. It's not a perfect system - and it's certainly not always adhered to - but it's a damn sight better than letting it be a free-for-all.

 

[Haywain]

Is spending time to root out a cheaper fare (which by definition involves changing the revenue received by one operator over another) considered partial or impartial?

You could argue it is being partial to the fare setter/revenue reciever of the cheaper ticket.

A ticket office clerk should offer the cheapest appropriate fare for the journey requested. If necessary, questions should be asked to establish what the customer’s requirements are in respect of speed, changes, choice of operator, time of travel etc. Having said that, if the customer knows exactly what ticket they want - as many do - it saves a lot of time and bother for all concerned if they ask for that at the outset.

 

[Class800]

A ticket office clerk should offer the cheapest appropriate fare for the journey requested. If necessary, questions should be asked to establish what the customer’s requirements are in respect of speed, changes, choice of operator, time of travel etc. Having said that, if the customer knows exactly what ticket they want - as many do - it saves a lot of time and bother for all concerned if they ask for that at the outset.

Agree - and it annoys me that many clerks will re-plan the journey and then initially give wrong fare, rather than just get the ticket I ask for

 

[Starmill]

A ticket office clerk should offer the cheapest appropriate fare for the journey requested. If necessary, questions should be asked to establish what the customer’s requirements are in respect of speed, changes, choice of operator, time of travel etc. Having said that, if the customer knows exactly what ticket they want - as many do - it saves a lot of time and bother for all concerned if they ask for that at the outset.

To be fair asking for the 1233 service is an enormous clue that the customer does already know what they want, but they may be unfamiliar with the technical name for it, in this case the Super Off Peak Return for London Northwestern Railway and West Midlands Railway. The booking office staff at Crewe will know that the xx33 departures take the WMR/LNR only tickets off by heart I am sure. I agree that it's not quite sufficient information because they'd still need to check when the customer wants to come back.

 

[Haywain]

To be fair asking for the 1233 service is an enormous clue that the customer does already know what they want, but they may be unfamiliar with the technical name for it, in this case the Super Off Peak Return for London Northwestern Railway and West Midlands Railway.

I am not suggesting that the clerk was right in their approach but the OP states that they named the ticket they wanted in the course of the conversation. I am making an assumption that the OP also knows that ticket is restricted to LNR/WMT.

As an aside, we also can’t know from what we’ve been told that this happened at Crewe station.

(Technically, not the OP but you know what I mean).

 

[allotments]

I can’t help wondering why, when you knew you wanted a Super Off Peak Return, restricted to travel with LNR, you started with this:

Well of course for purpose of this topic, I'm interested to see if I'm offered a choice including the cheapest fare. I've not yet had a single instance of the £22.80 fare being offered initially, with or without a caveat about restrictions on use.

Yes I would normally ask directly for the £22.80 fare restricted to LNWR but I can tell you from experience that doesn't resolve the problem that most clerks can't easily find the ticket.

I've stated out on 12:33 CRE-EUS, which using an app would immediately throw up the £22.80 super off peak open return as an option.

As an ex British Rail information/booking office clerk and as a retired database programmer, I'm sure the problem is that the sales software isn't showing the cheapest fare on the first screen, whereas apps do. Clerks are doing their best with software that isn't supporting them adequately.

I am not suggesting that the clerk was right in their approach but the OP states that they named the ticket they wanted in the course of the conversation. I am making an assumption that the OP also knows that ticket is restricted to LNR/WMT.

As an aside, we also can’t know from what we’ve been told that this happened at Crewe station.

(Technically, not the OP but you know what I mean).

Yes I purchased the ticket in Wales yesterday, i.e. not at Crewe.

The rail industry needs to be careful as not offering the cheapest fare is a breach of the rules of impartial retailing as well as being a breach of consumer law. There are already a couple of class action claims against train companies, and there is definitely scope for more.

Yes. I suspect this won't be the only example of mis-selling. Programmers know that finding a single issue is frequently the tip of an iceberg. Can the forum identify other examples?

It's very bad news for booking offices and their survival when passengers can find better fares online. Would prefer it be the other way around.

As passengers increasingly know, the cheapest fare can often be a split ticket which is what I do between Wales and South London. A period return from Wales to Crewe, the LNWR only return to Euston, then Oyster with railcard discount onward.

Arguably the railway should be offering split ticket options up front too! How about that?

 

[AlterEgo]

Indeed - but if you don't already know what you want, other than in conceptual terms (because you don't know what's available - ie like most punters), then going to a station ticket office ought to be the one place where you do find the "best" (whatever that might be for you) ticket.

Of course, but the OP knows the times, exact ticket type, how much it should cost - just buy online instead of buggering about with a clerk who is less competent than he is.

 

[Class800]

Of course, but the OP knows the times, exact ticket type, how much it should cost - just buy online instead of buggering about with a clerk who is less competent than he is.

Unless you want to use RTVs or PRIVs