All Line Rover [ALR] restrictions from 2 January 2011

[flymo]

Just FYI, Britrail passes are not only available to European addresses, they are available to anyone not resident in Britain (including British Citizens), wherever they are in the world.

I don't think you can blame the TOCs then for wanting these restrictions. They are losing revenue by people taking advantage of the ALR.

Rubbish. They are losing revenue, and will continue to do so, due to the fact that so many of their fares are just too darned expensive. If there is a cheaper option, why not use it?

 

[Zoe]

Rubbish. They are losing revenue, and will continue to do so, due to the fact that so many of their fares are just too darned expensive. If there is a cheaper option, why not use it?

It's a captured market though. If you need to go to London, driving is not practical so you have no choice but to use the train or not travel at all.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

These new restrictions will probably mean my planned 14 day First Class ALR next June will not now go ahead. Early London departures were to feature heavily.
LOSS of revenue to the TOCs.

 

[anthony263]

Trust these restrictions to come in before i get a chance to go on a tour of the UK. Looks like i will have to refine my plans now to avoid any early morning trips in/out of london unless i am using southwest trains

 

[sprinterguy]

So wait a minute…if I’ve got this right, it would be perfectly plausible to board a London Midland service from Birmingham New Street at about 8:30am, travel to Birmingham International and catch the next Virgin Pendo service to Euston (arriving after 10am)? Or, catch a Virgin service from Wolverhampton to Coventry in the middle of the morning peak, passing through New Street? What are these restrictions meant to achieve? It’s clearly not going to reduce overcrowding, or increase train specific ticket sales, as in many cases it’s possible to end up on the same peak trains as would have been the case before, only joining one station before or after.

Although I suppose it'll have a pretty big impact on London terminals, given that interchange stations such as Stevenage, Bedford and Luton are covered. Restricting Birmingham New Street seems pointless though.

 

[nedchester]

I don't think you can blame the TOCs then for wanting these restrictions. They are losing revenue by people taking advantage of the ALR.

Which shows what a rip off train fares are in this country,

Meanwhile in Germany you can get TWELVE MONTHS unlimited travel for 3,800 Euros or 6400 Euros First with no travel restrictions on a better railway network than that in the UK.

 

[mrcheek]

Rubbish. They are losing revenue, and will continue to do so, due to the fact that so many of their fares are just too darned expensive. If there is a cheaper option, why not use it?

If fares are so expensive, then why are passenger numbers still climbing even in the aftermath of a recession?

Next I assume you will complain about overcrowding....

 

[142094]

If fares are so expensive, then why are passenger numbers still climbing even in the aftermath of a recession?

Price of petrol?

 

[nedchester]

Price of petrol?

The TOCs are just increasing prices to see how high they can get away with. Problem is in the UK people are used to being ripped off and just put up with it.

 

[Sapphire Blue]

Price of petrol?

Erm. For petrol could you not read diesel?

On which quite a lot of trains depend on.

 

[flymo]

If fares are so expensive, then why are passenger numbers still climbing even in the aftermath of a recession?

Next I assume you will complain about overcrowding....

Perhaps they are not paying more and have found ways round the ludicrously expensive fares? Perhaps there are more people using advance tickets than ever before because they can't afford the anytime fare? Perhaps they are using rovers? Loads of reasons why more people may be using the train, it doesn't automatically follow that people are paying more.

 

[mrcheek]

Price of petrol?

OK. so where do I need to start with this lesson on basic economics? Page one, line one?

In a market, no price exists in a vacuum. If one form of transport increases in price, so must the others. If youre claiming petrol is expensive, then youre basically proving the point that rail fares are not over priced.
Or perhaps youre one of those people that claims "Everything is far too expensive!"

 

[222007]

There are not many stations listed there im sure the ALR will continue to be very good value for money and it easy enough to avoid these stations. Aslo i must add that i have not heard of these restrictions and i work for one of the TOC's mentioned

 

[142094]

OK. so where do I need to start with this lesson on basic economics? Page one, line one?

In a market, no price exists in a vacuum. If one form of transport increases in price, so must the others. If youre claiming petrol is expensive, then youre basically proving the point that rail fares are not over priced.
Or perhaps youre one of those people that claims "Everything is far too expensive!"

One of the reasons why more people are using trains rather than cars is due to the rise in petrol costs. Quite simple.

Remember that train companies, along with bus companies, get their petrol and diesel at far reduced rates by hedging their bets over a long timeframe. So perhaps people are being priced out of their cars and are using the railway, even if it means paying a high price for a ticket?

 

[mrcheek]

One of the reasons why more people are using trains rather than cars is due to the rise in petrol costs. Quite simple.

Remember that train companies, along with bus companies, get their petrol and diesel at far reduced rates by hedging their bets over a long timeframe. So perhaps people are being priced out of their cars and are using the railway, even if it means paying a high price for a ticket?

But the driver/passenger has a free choice. Car or train. He will weigh up the costs of the two, and make a decision. If the train works out cheaper (which apparently it does for more and more people all the time), THEN THE TRAIN IS NOT OVERPRICED.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are not many stations listed there im sure the ALR will continue to be very good value for money and it easy enough to avoid these stations. Aslo i must add that i have not heard of these restrictions and i work for one of the TOC's mentioned

Either an insider desperately defending the undefendable, or possibly the smartest post so far in this thread. I cant decide.

 

[nedchester]

But the driver/passenger has a free choice. Car or train. He will weigh up the costs of the two, and make a decision. If the train works out cheaper (which apparently it does for more and more people all the time), THEN THE TRAIN IS NOT OVERPRICED.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Either an insider desperately defending the undefendable, or possibly the smartest post so far in this thread. I cant decide.

Well for example if I want to go London in the peak then it is £230 which is ludicrous. Now petrol is a lot cheaper but the journey would take about 4 hours compared with 2 hours by train. So train doesn't win on price but wins on journey time and convenience. Not many people personally will pay £230 but will often by paid for by the companies they work for. Basically the Railways are relying on companies to pay these ludicrous prices.

 

[mrcheek]

Well for example if I want to go London in the peak then it is £230 which is ludicrous. Now petrol is a lot cheaper but the journey would take about 4 hours compared with 2 hours by train. So train doesn't win on price but wins on journey time and convenience. Not many people personally will pay £230 but will often by paid for by the companies they work for. Basically the Railways are relying on companies to pay these ludicrous prices.

If everybody followed your logic, then all the trains would be empty.

But luckily they are not.

Enough people are willing to pay the extra for convenience and speed to make that fare acceptable.

How can £230 be ludicrous if people are willing to pay it? Companies are run by people, who assess the circumstances, and decide that £230 is good value to get a highly paid executive speedily to London and back. If the fare was too high, they would not pay it. Nobody is forced to use the train. We still live in a free country (although if Labour had won another election we wouldnt have much longer left.....)

LIke with an ALR. I try to do one a year. 1st class, 2 weeks. Thousand quid. I am not well paid, but I live alone, so I can (just) afford it. People say its a silly price to spend two weeks on a train, and that "you could fly round the world for that much". Point is, I dont want to. For ME, £1000 for 2 weeks on trains is good value. Even with the restrictions (though if FGW ever gets included in the restrictions, thats where I shall finally call it a day...). Therefore, if there are other people like me (there must be somewhere, Im sure Im not the only one who buys this ticket, although judging by the reactions from some of the staff checking tickets, maybe I am...), then £1000 is still good value.

 

[142094]

But the driver/passenger has a free choice. Car or train. He will weigh up the costs of the two, and make a decision. If the train works out cheaper (which apparently it does for more and more people all the time), THEN THE TRAIN IS NOT OVERPRICED.

Just because the train is cheaper in this case doesn't necessarily mean that train tickets are not overpriced. All it proves is that running costs for cars have risen much higher in the past couple of years. Might change in the New Year when we get the bumper fares increases, might see less people travelling on the trains.

I highly doubt that the real reason for train ticket increases since privatisation has been for running costs and investment - more likely higher profits for TOCs and shareholders.

 

[dinlobill]

The All Line Rover is actually a season ticket for a week or a fortnight. There used to be an annual all line pass pass available in BR days. Sadly when the railways were privatised only the BritRail Pass was protected. I don't suppose many Memebers of Parliament knew the difference.

 

[222007]

Either an insider desperately defending the undefendable, or possibly the smartest post so far in this thread. I cant decide.

Insider so far as i work for one of the TOC's and would have to deal with any restriction impossed so actually it would mean more work for me potentially so id be against it from that point of view.

 

[Zoe]

Might change in the New Year when we get the bumper fares increases, might see less people travelling on the trains.

I doubt it, fuel is set to increase quite a bit in the next year. For one thing VAT is going up to 20% in the new year.

 

[142094]

I doubt it, fuel is set to increase quite a bit in the next year. For one thing VAT is going up to 20% in the new year.

But compare it to some of the values of train tickets going up (average of 6.2% IIRC).

 

[HORNIMANS]

Its not the price that is the issue. its the loss of unrestricted travel which in my view is priceless

 

[90019]

OK. so where do I need to start with this lesson on basic economics? Page one, line one?

In a market, no price exists in a vacuum. If one form of transport increases in price, so must the others. If youre claiming petrol is expensive, then youre basically proving the point that rail fares are not over priced.
Or perhaps youre one of those people that claims "Everything is far too expensive!"

Lets go on to page two then and look a little deeper.

If costs of one method of transport go up, then some people will reconsider which method best suits them. The change in prices of fuel generally does not change at the same rate as the prices of rail tickets and rarely at the same time, therefore, the majority of the time when fuel costs rise, the price of railway tickets remains the same, changing the relative value for money of the two methods of travel. For some, it will make little difference, but for others it will be enough to make them change which they use.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But the driver/passenger has a free choice. Car or train. He will weigh up the costs of the two, and make a decision. If the train works out cheaper (which apparently it does for more and more people all the time), THEN THE TRAIN IS NOT OVERPRICED.

Comparing prices of two methods of transport against each other is not a way of showing whether something is overpriced or not, it only shows whether it is overpriced relative to the other one.

 

[43167]

What a joke. Why 10.00?, most people are at work well before then. The Birmingham restriction is the most annoying one. If there is to be a time restriction then surely the price has to come down aswell.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I don't understand which routeing option is restored.

York - Burley Park / Headingley and Leeds - Poppleton have remained permitted by both routes because via Garforth is shorter but via Harrogate is on a through train.

The Horsforth - Scarborough nonsense remains. The only fares available are "route Direct". But what does that mean? There are no through trains. The shortest route is via Garforth (73.25 miles). The route via Harrogate (75 miles) is not more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route. The Routeing Guide says that both are Permitted Routes but whether either or both are valid with a "route Direct" ticket is anyone's guess.

Sorry, it's the way I've worded it. Until around 1996 there were 2 sets of fares from Leeds, (and I think also from Burley Park, Headingley and Horsforth) to York - "Rte Any Permitted" and "Rte Harrogate". The two flows were priced differently to reflect the different level of speed and service. What I meant was that passengers from those stations now have the choice of two route options on the tickets again, and two different prices depending on which route you choose. It has removed some anomalies too. For example, Burley Park to York Rte Any Permitted (and valid via Leeds) is cheaper than Leeds to York. From Jan it is not. Rte Harrogate is cheaper than Rte Any Permitted, which in turn is slightly more than the Leeds - York fare. Northern Duos are now available York to Leeds Rte Harrogate as well.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The All Line Rover is actually a season ticket for a week or a fortnight. There used to be an annual all line pass pass available in BR days.

If the All-Line Rover *is* technically a season ticket, then does that mean you can combine it with a non-season ticket, changing over at a station that the train doesn't necessarily have to stop at? E.g. to arrive at King's Cross before 10:00 am you could use the ALR as far as Harringay and switch there to a £3.40 anytime day single to complete the journey into King's Cross?

If it *isn't* a season ticket, then could you combine it with a ticket that is a season, e.g. a Finsbury Park to London Terminals 7-day season is £13.20 - something like this could perhaps still make it useable for those business travellers who need to make a few peak-time journeys into London in a week?

 

[yorkie]

If the All-Line Rover *is* technically a season ticket, then does that mean you can combine it with a non-season ticket, changing over at a station that the train doesn't necessarily have to stop at? E.g. to arrive at King's Cross before 10:00 am you could use the ALR as far as Harringay and switch there to a £3.40 anytime day single to complete the journey into King's Cross?

If it *isn't* a season ticket, then could you combine it with a ticket that is a season, e.g. a Finsbury Park to London Terminals 7-day season is £13.20 - something like this could perhaps still make it useable for those business travellers who need to make a few peak-time journeys into London in a week?

It is included as a 'Season ticket or Leisure pass' so you most certainly can use combinations of tickets without the train calling. However this is a complex issue, and I am not sure it is as simple as this. How is the restriction worded? if it says where you board, you can't really say you boarded at Harringay can you? That said, it may be valid, or it may not be, it needs careful analysis.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I was going by the wording provided by swlines (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=537796&postcount=21) - it sounds pretty plausible I think. Then the only relevant bit would be "not valid for alighting train services operated by East Coast before 10:00 at London King's Cross" which I think would be OK. Agree need to wait and see what the official wording is though.

 

[43167]

Not valid for boarding or alighting train services operated by CrossCountry, East Coast, East Midlands Trains, Virgin Trains, before 10.00 Mondays – Fridays at the following stations:

Birmingham New Street

Bedford

London Euston

London Kings Cross

London St Pancras

Luton

Luton Airport Parkway

Milton Keynes Central

Stevenage

Watford Junction

No restrictions apply on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays.

Just read it properly. At 1st I thought it was all trains, but if its just the intercity from the north operators not a major problem, not brilliant, but some I can cope with, sure others will aswell.

The New St restriction will be difficult to enforce I think, are the XC train managers going to physically stop people getting of there, I think not.