Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[Robertj21a]

As an 'intelligence' gathering operation, as you say, probably very worth while.
Upside - no staff Tupe'd across, so no complexities re pay rates/hours/shifts/breaks/holidays/overtime etc etc.
Downside - can Stagecoach/Safeguard/ Falcon/Whitebus/Compass/Reptons register routes with confidence in being able to recruit enough staff?
It's quoted as '122' staff at Arriva-Guildford, PVR @ 37 ish so must be at least 85+ drivers potentially looking for jobs, but as per the daily news some may give up bus driving. Maintenance & admin staff will be needed too.
Long service staff might get a half decent redundancy payment and be able to get another driving job straight away, not so nice for staff who have only been employed for a short time.
Still don't know if the depot was part of any possible deal, freehold or leasehold or perhaps Arriva had a good offer for it in the first place?
With potential operators maybe struggling to find bus parking space, Surrey County Council must be worried that not all the commercial routes might be bid for?
Ditto for supported services - mostly evenings & sundays.

Surely, 37 pvr doesn't equal 37 drivers, more like 70 ?
Presumably, the 122 includes cleaners, office, maintenance etc etc ?

 

[MotCO]

With potential operators maybe struggling to find bus parking space, Surrey County Council must be worried that not all the commercial routes might be bid for?

Will this lead to more operators based outside Guildford running the services? Are there many services running into Guildford, or are they mainly town services?

 

[Surreyman]

Will this lead to more operators based outside Guildford running the services? Are there many services running into Guildford, or are they mainly town services?

Stagecoach/Safeguard/ Falcon/Whitebus/Compass/Reptons - pretty much covers it, I suppose at a push Blue Diamond (south side of Heathrow) & Metrobus in Crawley, maybe Thames Valley in Bracknell for 34/35, mucho dead mileage in all cases.
Can't see any of the London operators covering Guildford/Woking - nearest depots would be Hounslow, Fulwell or Tolworth.

Surely, 37 pvr doesn't equal 37 drivers, more like 70 ?
Presumably, the 122 includes cleaners, office, maintenance etc etc ?

I think my post does say 85+ - rule of thumb, number of drivers = PVR x 2 + holiday & sickness cover.

 

[Flange Squeal]

The Monday to Saturday elements of Woking routes 91 (to Knaphill) and 436 (to Weybridge) have been registered commercially by Diamond South East. The 91’s evening and Sunday service is operated under contract to Surrey County Council.

Link to 91 registration: https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/586794/

Link to 436 registration: https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/586795/

 

[AB93]

The Monday to Saturday elements of Woking routes 91 (to Knaphill) and 436 (to Weybridge) have been registered commercially by Diamond South East. The 91’s evening and Sunday service is operated under contract to Surrey County Council.

Link to 91 registration: https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/586794/

Link to 436 registration: https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/586795/

In the same week as Surrey CC have confirmed their Bus Service Improvement Plan. The irony...

 

[A0]

As an 'intelligence' gathering operation, as you say, probably very worth while.
Upside - no staff Tupe'd across, so no complexities re pay rates/hours/shifts/breaks/holidays/overtime etc etc.
Downside - can Stagecoach/Safeguard/ Falcon/Whitebus/Compass/Reptons register routes with confidence in being able to recruit enough staff?
It's quoted as '122' staff at Arriva-Guildford, PVR @ 37 ish so must be at least 85+ drivers potentially looking for jobs, but as per the daily news some may give up bus driving. Maintenance & admin staff will be needed too.
Long service staff might get a half decent redundancy payment and be able to get another driving job straight away, not so nice for staff who have only been employed for a short time.
Still don't know if the depot was part of any possible deal, freehold or leasehold or perhaps Arriva had a good offer for it in the first place?
With potential operators maybe struggling to find bus parking space, Surrey County Council must be worried that not all the commercial routes might be bid for?
Ditto for supported services - mostly evenings & sundays.

The biggest issue with TUPE is they would have to TUPE the whole operation. Now let's say 50% of the routes were either subsidised or marginal viability, there's no guarantee a new operator would want all of those, yet they can't just take a subset of the drivers - the TUPE would have to be offered to all.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The biggest issue with TUPE is they would have to TUPE the whole operation. Now let's say 50% of the routes were either subsidised or marginal viability, there's no guarantee a new operator would want all of those, yet they can't just take a subset of the drivers - the TUPE would have to be offered to all.

Not at all. They could have sold a portion of the operation. It’s how you do the selection policy of staff to xfer .

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Which operator will run the 63? Before I moved to Oxford, I used to travel on the 63 a lot whenever I went to Guildford.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2021 ==

Arriva confirms on their social media feed that they are no longer operating routes 306/308 as it is to "be run by another operator," alongside route 59 which will be operated by Nu-Venture from the same date.

Yet more evidence of Arriva being in a downward spiral.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ArrivaKent/status/1451494285161943045

I reckon that 306/308 will probably be run by Go Coach.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Which operator will run the 63? Before I moved to Oxford, I used to travel on the 63 a lot whenever I went to Guildford.

The news of the failed bid by Falcon only broke 24 hours ago. I’d suggest a little patience over the next 48 hours.

 

[MotCO]

Not at all. They could have sold a portion of the operation. It’s how you do the selection policy of staff to xfer .

Particularly if drivers are not allocated to specific routes, but to any route. Ditto for any backroom staff, mechanics etc.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

The news of the failed bid by Falcon only broke 24 hours ago. I’d suggest a little patience over the next 48 hours.

I predict Metrobus, Compass Bus or Stagecoach South will run the 63 (as well as 53 and 63X)

 

[duncombec]

It may be that Falcon has found that it is cheaper to run the routes without any ex-Arriva baggage (e.g. staff wage rates and working practices).

Alternatively, they may have found that they don't have anywhere to keep the buses.

Well I guess having now examined some inside data, they may now have more of an idea on which routes are worth their time registering themselves going forward, without having to pay to be lumbered with the rest of the network.

Interesting the immediate assumption has been that Falcon are the cause of the issue. Why not, for example, that Falcon were prepared to take things on, just not at the price Arriva required for it (which they may think overpriced)? There are two parties to every deal.

The Monday to Saturday elements of Woking routes 91 (to Knaphill) and 436 (to Weybridge) have been registered commercially by Diamond South East. The 91’s evening and Sunday service is operated under contract to Surrey County Council.

Link to 91 registration: https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/586794/

Link to 436 registration: https://www.vehicle-operator-licens...registered-local-bus-services/details/586795/

With the news that the talks have broken down, Diamond South East have registered the 91 and 436
https://bustimes.org/licences/PK1135862 (also reported in Hants and Surrey bus blog)

If I've read the dates correctly, they were submitted on 5 October - i.e. before the Falcon talks even became public knowledge.

Which operator will run the 63? Before I moved to Oxford, I used to travel on the 63 a lot whenever I went to Guildford.

Given the depot doesn't close until the end of the year, it's a bit premature for any decisions to have been made yet - especially as, if I remember correctly, they can go through under shorter terms with County Council support than a standard registration.

306/308 will probably be run by Go Coach

As yet, nobody knows. Nothing more than - often conflicting - rumour is available. The only thing that looks confirmed is that Arriva haven't given it up commercially and won it back on tender.

 

[Typhoon]

Interesting the immediate assumption has been that Falcon are the cause of the issue. Why not, for example, that Falcon were prepared to take things on, just not at the price Arriva required for it (which they may think overpriced)? There are two parties to every deal.

Especially as Falcon will then be aware that Diamond had registered the two routes, 8 vehicles out as I write this, a sizeable chunk. Arriva's price might have been the business as a whole, Falcon's the business minus those two routes.

If I've read the dates correctly, they were submitted on 5 October - i.e. before the Falcon talks even became public knowledge.

You have. It's the date of the first post about the closure being confirmed on this thread, when takeovers were just speculation.

 

[Flange Squeal]

Interesting the immediate assumption has been that Falcon are the cause of the issue. Why not, for example, that Falcon were prepared to take things on, just not at the price Arriva required for it (which they may think overpriced)? There are two parties to every deal.

I think that's pretty much what myself and @MotCO were saying in our quoted posts? Falcon have presumably now had the chance to examine the finer points of the operation and, for whatever reason, have decided they longer wish to progress further? There were rumours that another operator/group had previously been in talks about an acquisition prior to the original closure announcement and also decided not to take it further either, so they might not be the first to take that stance in relation to Arriva Guildford, although I've not found any facts to back that up beyond rumour.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2021 ==

Especially as Falcon will then be aware that Diamond had registered the two routes, 8 vehicles out as I write this, a sizeable chunk. Arriva's price might have been the business as a whole, Falcon's the business minus those two routes.

A good point, particularly as those - certainly the 91 - are probably two of the better routes in the depot's portfolio. The PVR on the 91 goes up to five in the peak hours, when frequency increases from every 15 mins to every 12 mins, so overall 9 vehicles if current frequencies were retained. Although the last time Diamond (as Hallmark) registered a commercial route over another operator's (Abellio's 461), they only held out for a few months before cancelling it. Maybe their registration was put in early to try discourage others putting their own in, unaware of talks going on behind the scenes.

 

[MotCO]

It may be that Falcon has found that it is cheaper to run the routes without any ex-Arriva baggage (e.g. staff wage rates and working practices).

Interesting the immediate assumption has been that Falcon are the cause of the issue. Why not, for example, that Falcon were prepared to take things on, just not at the price Arriva required for it (which they may think overpriced)? There are two parties to every deal.

I, for one, was not suggesting Falcon was the cause of the issue. I was suggesting that the cost of taking over the routes on Arriva's terms ('transfer fee', TUPE etc) was not viable for another company to take them over. However, the routes might be viable if the costs of operation were entirely determined by another operator, such as Falcon.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Given the depot doesn't close until the end of the year, it's a bit premature for any decisions to have been made yet - especially as, if I remember correctly, they can go through under shorter terms with County Council support than a standard registration.

I was only asking because I thought the decision had already been made, seeing that the 91 and 436 will be run by Diamond Bus South East.

 

[darloscott]

Which operator will run the 63? Before I moved to Oxford, I used to travel on the 63 a lot whenever I went to Guildford.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2021 ==



306/308 will probably be run by Go Coach

I saw somewhere that the 306/308 will be run by Redroute, but can’t remember where I read it…

 

[SouthEastBuses]

I saw somewhere that the 306/308 will be run by Redroute, but can’t remember where I read it…

Well, I guess I will have to pay an extra ticket, seeing that Redroute doesn't accept £9 Discovery tickets onboard.

 

[LUYMun]

This also now seems to have been confirmed by Surrey County Council (emphasis added), even though an updated statement has not yet been released by Falcon: https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/roads-a...ort/bus-timetable-changes/forthcoming-changes

I don't think Falcon are defeated yet, it's still up for debate if in the end one of the routes would pass over to them, particularly the 479 (Guildford - Epsom) which should connect up their two networks nicely.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I was only asking because I thought the decision had already been made, seeing that the 91 and 436 will be run by Diamond Bus South East.

Like most of the affected routes, Arriva's 91 (except evenings and Sundays) and 436 are both commercially operated, and the two Diamond South East registrations are also both commercial. Therefore that is just a case of Diamond having decided they wish to register their own commercial replacements - they are not council contracts that have been retendered and awarded to new operators. There is nothing stopping any operator(s) registering their own commercial service over any of the current Arriva routes if they so desire.

"Decisions" as to who operates what will come for routes that no one wishes to take on commercially themselves, but that the council choose to issue support for replacements of. For example when Buses Excetera failed in 2019, this saw their commercially operated Monday to Saturday 479 (Guildford to Epsom) cease operation for a number of days. Arriva then took it on, but with financial subsidy from Surrey Council Council. I believe the 18 (Guildford to Onslow Village) and 479 (Guildford to Epsom) are the only subsidised Monday to Saturday daytime routes that Arriva operate out of Guildford, with the remainder of their supported operations being limited to evening and Sunday journeys on otherwise commercially-operated routes (plus their single morning short journey on the 28, and possibly the rail link 47).

 

[duncombec]

I think that's pretty much what myself and @MotCO were saying in our quoted posts? Falcon have presumably now had the chance to examine the finer points of the operation and, for whatever reason, have decided they longer wish to progress further? There were rumours that another operator/group had previously been in talks about an acquisition prior to the original closure announcement and also decided not to take it further either, so they might not be the first to take that stance in relation to Arriva Guildford, although I've not found any facts to back that up beyond rumour.

I, for one, was not suggesting Falcon was the cause of the issue. I was suggesting that the cost of taking over the routes on Arriva's terms ('transfer fee', TUPE etc) was not viable for another company to take them over. However, the routes might be viable if the costs of operation were entirely determined by another operator, such as Falcon.

My apologies - I read your (both of your) posts along the lines of "Falcon weren't getting their own way so walked away", which isn't what you intended!

Interestingly, one of the many house price sites I checked last night (sorry, can't remember which) had a £1million+ sale for the property in December 2016... could it be that Arriva don't own the freehold any more, and this is only coming out when operators make contact and realise they need depot space?

Well, I guess I will have to pay an extra ticket, seeing that Redroute doesn't accept £9 Discovery tickets onboard.

Most of Redroute's work is commercial or schools, except the 416/417. These ought to accept Discovery tickets, as tendered services. Have you contacted the operator?

 

[MotCO]

My apologies - I read your (both of your) posts along the lines of "Falcon weren't getting their own way so walked away", which isn't what you intended!

No problem

 

[MedwayValiant]

I saw somewhere that the 306/308 will be run by Redroute, but can’t remember where I read it…

Some community group in Meopham said that on Twitter, but without saying how it knew. Arriva told someone who asked on Facebook that it was Nu-Venture, but then went back on that and said that it hadn't been told.

Should one be a little concerned that it's Thursday evening, and no operator is willing to admit that it is running the service as from Monday morning?

 

[Typhoon]

Some community group in Meopham said that on Twitter, but without saying how it knew. Arriva told someone who asked on Facebook that it was Nu-Venture, but then went back on that and said that it hadn't been told.

Should one be a little concerned that it's Thursday evening, and no operator is willing to admit that it is running the service as from Monday morning?

Schools back on Monday! (306 calls at Meopham school so must carry pupils.)

 

[GusB]

As is usually the case when a company either folds or withdraws from a particular area, there will naturally be some speculation about who takes over what, either in terms of staff, vehicles or routes. While there's nothing wrong with posting your thoughts about what might happen, I think it's important that we all try to make a clear distinction between any ideas you may have and what is actually happening.

When posting any factual developments, please make sure you have a link to the source of your information and include a relevant quote from that source. If it's "insider" information and you don't feel too comfortable about revealing exactly where it has come from, that's fine as long as you indicate this. Please also consider whether or not you may be in breach of any company guidelines regarding the sharing of information that may be considered to be commercially sensitive.

In short, it's easier to sort out the facts from the wibble if there is some sort of documentation to back them up!

 

[Flange Squeal]

Stagecoach have registered replacements for Camberley routes 34/35, Merrow routes 36/37, Cranleigh/Horsham routes 53/63, Woking route 91, and the Brookwood rail link 47.

Following the news earlier this month that Arriva planned to close their Guildford depot, Falcon Coaches announced they were in talks to take the operation over. Two days ago it was revealed that these talks had been unsuccessful.

With just seven weeks to go until the depot is due to close, some replacement route registrations have begun filtering through the system. The first came from Diamond South East back on 5th October for commercial routes 91 (Woking to Knaphill via Goldsworth Park) and 436 (Woking to Weybridge via Byfleet), with an effective date of 4th January 2022. The date these were received was the same day that Arriva made their first public statement regarding the closure.

Today though, and following news of the Falcon talks starting and now ceasing, some more registrations have been submitted, this time by Stagecoach. These are as follows, all effective from Saturday 18th December 2020.

• PK0002571/94 covers a new route number 6 between Guildford and Merrow Park, which one presumes would replace current town circulars 36/37.
• PK0002571/95 covers routes 53, 63 and 63X (Guildford to Ewhurst/Horsham via Cranleigh)
• PK0002571/96 covers route 91 (Woking to Knaphill via Goldsworth Park)
• PK0002571/97 covers route 47 (Brookwood to West End weekday commuter service)
• PK0002571/98 covers routes 34 and 35 (Guildford to Camberley via Woking)

The 34, 35, 36, 37, 53, 63 and 91 are primarily commercial routes, but with Surrey County Council subsidising evening journeys and the Sunday services. The three Stagecoach registrations covering these five routes all say they receive subsidy “In Part”, so this may indicate they would be operating all journeys on these routes, rather than the evening/Sunday elements being tendered separately to any commercial daytime service. This seems to be confirmed by the 91’s registration at least, which makes mention of Guildford which is only served by the 91 on Sundays. Timetables are not yet available at this early stage, so it’s currently unclear if current frequencies are to be retained.

So to keep track, we so far have replacements for routes 34, 35, 36, 37, 47, 53, 63/63X and 91 registered by Stagecoach, and routes 91 and 436 by Diamond South East (albeit these two registered very early on and with a January start date).

So what hasn’t been registered yet?​

This leaves the following routes so far unaccounted for: A (Guildford to RSC Hospital), C (Guildford to Stoughton), 3 (Guildford to Bellfields, Sunday tendered service), 18 (Guildford to Onslow Village), 28 (one morning short journey), and 479 (Guildford to Epsom). Looking at these in more detail though…

• A was a competitive venture against Safeguard’s established routes 4/5 which continue to frequently link the town and hospital over the same routing, with Stagecoach also linking the two via the University and Surrey Sports Park.
• C hasn’t run since the pandemic began to my knowledge, although still registered, and is mirrored by Stagecoach route 2.
• 28 is just one morning journey on the otherwise Falcon Coaches operated route, as a de minimis utilising a vehicle that was otherwise running ‘dead’ between Guildford and Knaphill anyway en route to start work on the 91. It began when Buses Excetera reduced the timetable during their reign on the 28, so could potentially fit in with Stagecoach’s 91 if running ‘dead’ from Peasmarsh.
• 134/135 are numbers used by Arriva for certain school variations on routes 34/35. While these aren’t mentioned on Stagecoach’s registration like they are on Arriva’s, these journey variations may well still run as part of their 34/35 offering.

Therefore the Surrey County Council-contracted 18 to Onslow Village and 479 to Epsom via Leatherhead are the only two main Monday to Saturday routes that are yet to see any vital replacement registered. Safeguard operate the 3 commercially Mon-Sat, and Stagecoach operate the 479’s subsidised Sunday service, so while it would be ‘tidy’ to see Safeguard and Stagecoach take on the Sunday 3 and Mon-Sat 479 respectively, I guess it will come down to tender results as to who takes what on. I would expect we would just see a variation to their current registrations for these routes being submitted, if they were to take those elements on alongside their current contributions to each route.

Finally, regarding the 436 (Woking to Weybridge) mentioned above, which Diamond registered very early on but with a January start date. I wonder if this was done to get in early to perhaps discourage others, before the exact details of Arriva’s timescale became apparent and we may therefore see Diamond’s registrations of that and the 91 amended? Particularly now Stagecoach have registered a 91 themselves with some level of subsidy and ‘Guildford’ shown, implying they have also got the tendered evening service to Pirbright and Sunday service to Guildford. While it would be perfectly acceptable for Diamond to compete on the 91 alongside Stagecoach, and indeed any operator could still yet register their own commercial service over any of the routes if they so desire, I’d perhaps be a bit surprised if we saw any “bus wars” break out given the current climate of the pandemic and driver shortages across the industry. In the past Hallmark, as Diamond was known at the time, did start competing with Abellio Surrey over the 461 after winning the evening/Sunday tender, but this only lasted a number of months before they gave up on their competitive commercial element. So while they have in the past been prepared to compete, time will tell if the Goldsworth Park estate does become a battleground or not…

Arriva Replacement Registrations

Following the news earlier this month that Arriva planned to close their Guildford depot, Falcon Coaches announced they were in talks to take the operation over. Two days ago it was revealed that t…

handsbusblog.wordpress.com

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Stagecoach have registered replacements for Camberley routes 34/35, Merrow routes 36/37, Cranleigh/Horsham routes 53/63, Woking route 91, and the Brookwood rail link 47.

Arriva Replacement Registrations

Following the news earlier this month that Arriva planned to close their Guildford depot, Falcon Coaches announced they were in talks to take the operation over. Two days ago it was revealed that t…

handsbusblog.wordpress.com

So Stagecoach will take over one of my local routes then. Not a bad choice, would have preferred Metrobus, but if it means Trident 2 Voiths in Horsham, then bring it on!

Looks like some of my predictions were right then.

Also, I thought Diamond Bus South East was supposed to be the new 91 operator?

 

[Flange Squeal]

Also, I thought Diamond Bus South East was supposed to be the new 91 operator?

The daytime Monday to Saturday 91 is a commercial operation, as is Diamond's registration. There is nothing stopping any operator registering their own service and battling it out, although with Stagecoach seeming to have won the tendered evening and Sunday element, we may see Diamond revaluate yet. They registered their replacement on the day Arriva publicly announced the depot closure and its start date isn't until January, so it may have been a tactical move at the time that they may now reassess, if they don't fancy starting a battle they're less likely to win.

 

[Surreyman]

Stagecoach have registered replacements for Camberley routes 34/35, Merrow routes 36/37, Cranleigh/Horsham routes 53/63, Woking route 91, and the Brookwood rail link 47.

Arriva Replacement Registrations

Following the news earlier this month that Arriva planned to close their Guildford depot, Falcon Coaches announced they were in talks to take the operation over. Two days ago it was revealed that t…

handsbusblog.wordpress.com

Good news!
Will be interesting to see how Stagecoach provide Depot/parking space, 34/35 all or part from Aldershot?
Looks like Peasmarsh will be increasing the Ops licence numbers.
Most of what's left are tendered services, I hope Safeguard increase their PVR with short workings to RSCH on 4/5.
The only downside for me is the probable reappearance of Streetlites in Woking, I had hoped that Wright would discontinue them when they were taken over but sadly this is not the case.

 

[Man of Kent]

Schools back on Monday! (306 calls at Meopham school so must carry pupils.)

Kent County Council has now announced that the 306/308 will be operated by Red Route

Kent County Council steps in to maintain bus service - KCC Media Hub

Redroute Buses has taken been announced to take over the running of services between Sevenoaks, Borough Green, Gravesend and Bluewater.

kccmediahub.net

Kent County Council has stepped in to ensure that users of the 306 and 308 bus routes can continue to travel.
It follows the decision of Arriva to step back from the services between Sevenoaks, Borough Green, Gravesend and Bluewater.
Redroute Buses will be taking over the running of the 306 and 308 services
The new provider, Redroute Buses, will start operating the routes from Monday 1st November, meaning there will be no change to the level of service experienced by passengers.
Cabinet Member for Highways and Transport, David Brazier
Kent County Council’s Cabinet Member for Highways and Transport, David Brazier, said: “The only thing that passengers will notice about the change in these services is the colour of the buses they embark upon.
“Although operational issues meant the previous firm had to review its offer, I am pleased that KCC has been able to find a suitable replacement, so residents feel as little of a difference as possible.”
While Kent County Council does not operate the buses, it can make arrangements to secure services that cannot be commercially provided by operators.
A spokesperson for Redroute Buses said: “We are pleased to work with the council to operate this service from 1st November and look forward to serving these communities.”