Worrying about Covid while travelling on busy trains during half term.

[yorkie]

I'm willing to bet that there weren't as many people talking on your train as were talking in your restaurants. Vocalization dramatically increases the risk posed by Covid.

It's very possible that they didn't have as good air ventilation / filtration either.

Distance is not the only parameter.

Yes this is absolutely true, especially as we now know that Sars-CoV-2 transmits via tiny aerosol particles which can travel great distances (and which are not filtered by anything less than at the very least an FFP2/N95 mask)

 

[Jamiescott1]

How long do you propose we make space for you on trains ?
Just this winter? A few more years ? Forever ?

 

[fishwomp]

We're not!! (and 99.9% of the population are certainly not 'double masking', on public transport or elsewhere)
[..]

If you go back to the initial responses in this thread - there really was a claim that COVID had not been found on trains.. Nothing is 100% safe - not a crowded train, nor crossing a street, or breathing - but that trains are somehow free from COVID, that remains nonsense.

 

[yorkie]

If you go back to the initial responses in this thread - there really was a claim that COVID had not been found on trains.. Nothing is 100% safe - not a crowded train, nor crossing a street, or breathing - but that trains are somehow free from COVID, that remains nonsense.

There is no evidence of an increase in risk on trains compared to other places.

People are not guaranteeing that Sars-CoV-2 particles do not exist on trains but they have not been found, despite being specifically looked for.

 

[fishwomp]

There is no evidence of an increase in risk on trains compared to other places.

Compared to standing in a crowded lift, or compared to a walk on Rannoch Moor? Come on...

People are not guaranteeing that Sars-CoV-2 particles do not exist on trains but they have not been found, despite being specifically looked for.

.. in a study paid for by Network Rail ( https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227473/covid-19-sampling-study-finds-trace-virus/ ).

If 1 in 60 have the virus, what happens to that 1 or 2 people per carriage - do they stop breathing when on the train? What does that tell you about the research?

Whether you feel safe or not is a judgement call each of us can make, but to say it hasn't been found is a sign of not looking hard enough.

 

[yorkie]

Compared to standing in a crowded lift, or compared to a walk on Rannoch Moor? Come on...

I meant indoor places, not being outdoors.

But for most of us, we really just need to go about our lives. Exposure to viruses is a natural thing. Once we've been vaccinated there really is nothing to worry about; we'd be better off worrying about car travel if we want to get into tiny risks.

.. in a study paid for by Network Rail ( https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227473/covid-19-sampling-study-finds-trace-virus/ ).

Who do you want to pay for it? There were studies done on TfL too.

If 1 in 60 have the virus, what happens to that 1 or 2 people per carriage - do they stop breathing when on the train? What does that tell you about the research?

It's nowhere near that, given people who are unwell or have tested positive won't be on trains. Furthermore, as I said before, a huge proportion are children, who are again less likely to be on trains.

Viral load in vaccinated people is generally thought to be lower, and it's also thought that similar may be true of children. In any case if you have been vaccinated, exposure to such particles is unlikely to result in an infection. And if it does, you are unlikely to develop symptoms and be infectious. And if you do, the symptoms are highly likely to be mild.

Do you analyse the risks of every other walk of life?

Whether you feel safe or not is a judgement call each of us can make,

Indeed and as a species we are terrible at analysing risk.

but to say it hasn't been found is a sign of not looking hard enough.

If you say so.

 

[Butts]

I've been in five restaurants in the last week. They were all much safer in terms of distances between people than these two trains I came across today.

As you say we are now living with it. But the British are no longer very welcome in many other countries, Belgium or Germany, for instance, and this is because of the higher covid incidence and deaths here. Covid is not closely comparable with flu because the latter is a seasonal infection, not one that is around all the time like covid. They evidently don't fully subscribe to the views about the very high efficiencies of either vaccines or masks being expressed by most posters in this thread.

Not sure about Belgium,but I was made very welcome in Germany where I returned from yesterday after a short break.

Was there First Class on the service you were complaining about and if so what were the loading's like?

 

[NARobertson]

Most of us are, yes.


A vaccinated person has no issues visiting Belgium or Germany that I am aware of?


The incidence of Covid is mostly due to kids not (yet) being vaccinated here. As for deaths, there is a strong link between health/obesity and the UK is not exactly world beating in that department. But we are far, far better than the USA.


Influenza is around all the time but is often circulating at low levels, this is because of what is known as endemic equilibrium.

Sars-CoV-2 has not yet reached endemic equilibrium but it is coming.

A Sars-CoV-2 infection in an unvaccinated young person or a vaccinated adult is actually less likely to be as severe as an influenza infection in equivalent populations, but we not yet have the same level of immunity against Sars-CoV-2 as we do against other respiratory viruses. But, in time, we will.

In order to get a similarly good level of immunity, we do need full exposure to the virus as well as exposure to the vaccines (or a couple of natural exposures for people who choose not to be vaccinated).


Many people don't realise how effective vaccines are, or the different ways effectiveness can be measured. And most people don't have a clue how effective an FFP3 mask is, or how ineffective a standard mask is either.

To be fair most people don't really need to know; for the most part we just need to know that we can get vaccinated and live normal lives without fear. But for some people who are immunocompromised or have been fed a lot of fearful messages, it is useful to know more information. The average person really just wants to forget Covid and live their lives now though.

Some of the above I agree with, particularly the fact that most covid deaths occur in people with multiple other health conditions, such as high-blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, heart conditions, ... On the question of long covid (lasting consequences), it appears that the occurrence of this is unrelated to the severity of the covid a person had. However, on the point of travel restrictions, I did just check again the German requirements on the Robert Koch Institute Site. It is true you can get in provided you have proof of double vaccination or a very recent negative test result. However, because the Germans have classified the UK as a High Risk Area since 12 July, you are still required to quarantine. Failure to do so is only an administrative offence (which probably means non-criminal) but you could still be fined up to 25000 euros. It may be that the situation for Belgium is now better but I can't check that directly as i don't read French.

 

[yorkie]

Some of the above I agree with, particularly the fact that most covid deaths occur in people with multiple other health conditions, such as high-blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, heart conditions, ... On the question of long covid (lasting consequences), it appears that the occurrence of this is unrelated to the severity of the covid a person had.

Long Covid is actually a range of conditions all lumped under one umbrella. It is true that some people can have very mild symptoms for several weeks and this will count as "long Covid".

However it is also true that the more immunity we have against a virus, the better we are likely to be able to fight the virus; so a vaccinated person really shouldn't worry about this. There are a lot of other things in life that one should worry about rather more!

However, on the point of travel restrictions, I did just check again the German requirements on the Robert Koch Institute Site. It is true you can get in provided you have proof of double vaccination or a very recent negative test result. However, because the Germans have classified the UK as a High Risk Area since 12 July, you are still required to quarantine. Failure to do so is only an administrative offence (which probably means non-criminal) but you could still be fined up to 25000 euros. It may be that the situation for Belgium is now better but I can't check that directly as i don't read French.

No, if you are fully vaccinated you do not need to quarantine. I have been to Germany since 12 July.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Some of the above I agree with, particularly the fact that most covid deaths occur in people with multiple other health conditions, such as high-blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, heart conditions, ... On the question of long covid (lasting consequences), it appears that the occurrence of this is unrelated to the severity of the covid a person had. However, on the point of travel restrictions, I did just check again the German requirements on the Robert Koch Institute Site. It is true you can get in provided you have proof of double vaccination or a very recent negative test result. However, because the Germans have classified the UK as a High Risk Area since 12 July, you are still required to quarantine. Failure to do so is only an administrative offence (which probably means non-criminal) but you could still be fined up to 25000 euros. It may be that the situation for Belgium is now better but I can't check that directly as i don't read French.

I have all of the conditions, I also at the moment have Covid.

It’s an annoying cold.

Make sure you vacuum behind the sofa whilst you’re back there.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I would have absolutely no hesitation in travelling on a train which is full and standing, and indeed I've been on quite a few in the past few months...

 

[danm14]

But the British are no longer very welcome in many other countries, Belgium or Germany, for instance, and this is because of the higher covid incidence and deaths here

Utter nonsense.

Germany imposes no restrictions on people arriving from the UK, once they provide proof of either vaccination or having had the disease in the past 180 days.

Belgium requires proof of vaccination and a test on day 7; along with your choice of either not quarantining but taking a test in the 72 hours prior to arrival, or quarantining until the results of a test within 2 days after arrival.

Neither imposes any restriction on the reason for travel, nor do they require mandatory quarantine - that doesn't seem too unwelcome to me.

 

[duncanp]

Not sure about Belgium,but I was made very welcome in Germany where I returned from yesterday after a short break.

Was there First Class on the service you were complaining about and if so what were the loading's like?

The UK is classed as a "High Risk (Red Zone)" country by Belgium.

You have to fill in a passenger locator form and show proof of vaccination to be allowed entry, but UK citizens are certainly not banned or "not made welcome".

You have follow local rules about masks, vaccine passports etc, and these can vary from place to place. (eg Flanders, Wallonia and Brussels)

 

[yorksrob]

I've been in five restaurants in the last week. They were all much safer in terms of distances between people than these two trains I came across today.

As you say we are now living with it. But the British are no longer very welcome in many other countries, Belgium or Germany, for instance, and this is because of the higher covid incidence and deaths here. Covid is not closely comparable with flu because the latter is a seasonal infection, not one that is around all the time like covid. They evidently don't fully subscribe to the views about the very high efficiencies of either vaccines or masks being expressed by most posters in this thread.

I'm sure someone posted the other day that taking randomised population testing, Germany actually had a higher rate of COVID incidence than here.

Coming back to the original point, some crowding is inevitable on trains unfortunately. It's in the nature of things. But if overcrowding is likely, TOC's ought to be reinstating there normal capacity.

 

[NARobertson]

Utter nonsense.

Germany imposes no restrictions on people arriving from the UK, once they provide proof of either vaccination or having had the disease in the past 180 days.

Belgium requires proof of vaccination and a test on day 7; along with your choice of either not quarantining but taking a test in the 72 hours prior to arrival, or quarantining until the results of a test within 2 days after arrival.

Neither imposes any restriction on the reason for travel, nor do they require mandatory quarantine - that doesn't seem too unwelcome to me.

Germany has classified (see Robert-Kock Institute site) the UK as a High Risk Area since 12 July. If you have proof of vaccination or of a negative covid test within the last three days you are allowed in but you are required to quarantine. The is probably because the incubation time for covid is quite variable, something like from three to twelve days.

 

[221129]

Germany has classified (see Robert-Kock Institute site) the UK as a High Risk Area since 12 July. If you have proof of vaccination or of a negative covid test within the last three days you are allowed in but you are required to quarantine. The is probably because the incubation time for covid is quite variable, something like from three to twelve days.

This is absolutely false.

 

[Cdd89]

July. If you have proof of vaccination or of a negative covid test within the last three days you are allowed in but you are required to quarantine

That is not correct.

Entry requirements - Germany travel advice

FCDO travel advice for Germany. Includes safety and security, insurance, entry requirements and legal differences.

www.gov.uk

For those individuals eligible to enter Germany who are not fully vaccinated, travel from the UK is generally subject to 10-day quarantine with test and release available after 5 days. Both individuals who can prove recovery from the virus and the fully vaccinated are exempt from quarantine requirements.

 

[jumble]

Today I intended to travel from Worle to Bristol Parkway but aborted my journey at Bristol Temple Meads. This was because the two trains I boarded there were full and standing, offering an ideal covid breeding ground. One of these trains was a Cross-Country and this company is still offering only a half-timetable of trains from Bristol northwards. Nor have they extended the lengths of the trains they do still run. It was obvious with school holidays that this would be a busier week. I appreciate that the railways have probably lost the bigger half of their business but behaving like this is likely to lead to further loss of business.

I wonder why a business that has way more people who want to travel than they have capacity would be in the slightest bit concerned about losing business

 

[yorkie]

Germany has classified (see Robert-Kock Institute site) the UK as a High Risk Area since 12 July. If you have proof of vaccination or of a negative covid test within the last three days you are allowed in but you are required to quarantine. The is probably because the incubation time for covid is quite variable, something like from three to twelve days.

As I said above, this is not true. I have been to Germany since then, and I know several others who have too, and not had to quarantine.

The rules clearly state that fully vaccinated people do not have to quarantine.

 

[NARobertson]

That is not correct.

Entry requirements - Germany travel advice

FCDO travel advice for Germany. Includes safety and security, insurance, entry requirements and legal differences.

www.gov.uk

See Ordnance of 30 July, German Foreign Ministry:

auswaertiges.amt.de/en/coronavirus/2317268content_3

Germany has a significantly lower rate of covid infections and deaths than the UK and this may be down to the requirement to wear masks in crowded enclosed spaces, including trains, since the vaccination rate is lower there than here.

 

[Cdd89]

From your page (link corrected):

Exemptions from the requirement to quarantine:​

The requirement to quarantine applies to arrivals from high-risk areas until proof of full vaccination, recovery from an infection or a negative test result is submitted via the entry portal of the Federal Republic of Germany (www.einreiseanmeldung.de).

 

[yorkie]

auswaertiges.amt.de/en/coronavirus/2317268content_3

I can't seem to access that; can you please edit your post to include a hyperlink, and a relevant quote (in quote tags, using the quote button) please? (as @Cdd89 did in post #47 above)

Edit: I see @Cdd89 has provided a quote for you and it says the opposite of what you were claiming.

 

[jumble]

Some of the above I agree with, particularly the fact that most covid deaths occur in people with multiple other health conditions, such as high-blood pressure, diabetes, obesity, heart conditions, ... On the question of long covid (lasting consequences), it appears that the occurrence of this is unrelated to the severity of the covid a person had. However, on the point of travel restrictions, I did just check again the German requirements on the Robert Koch Institute Site. It is true you can get in provided you have proof of double vaccination or a very recent negative test result. However, because the Germans have classified the UK as a High Risk Area since 12 July, you are still required to quarantine. Failure to do so is only an administrative offence (which probably means non-criminal) but you could still be fined up to 25000 euros. It may be that the situation for Belgium is now better but I can't check that directly as i don't read French.

The Germans have made this very confusing for sure but I think you are mistaken


The RKI says if you send proof of vaccination before arriving no quarantine is necessary

https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Transport/Archiv_Risikogebiete/Risikogebiete_aktuell_en.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Ending quarantine: Quarantine at home may be ended early if proof of recovery, proof
of vaccination or a negative test result is submitted via upload portal of the digital
registration on entry at https://www.einreiseanmeldung.de.
Vaccinated and recovered persons can end
the quarantine from the time when the proof of vaccination or recovery is transmitted via
the entry portal. If the transmission takes place before entry (strongly recommended), no
quarantine is needed.

 

[Jamiescott1]

See Ordnance of 30 July, German Foreign Ministry:

auswaertiges.amt.de/en/coronavirus/2317268content_3

Germany has a significantly lower rate of covid infections and deaths than the UK and this may be down to the requirement to wear masks in crowded enclosed spaces, including trains, since the vaccination rate is lower there than here.

Germany has a significantly lower rate of recorded covid infections than the UK.
Remember that Germany conducts considerably less covid tests than the uk and has a far higher positivity rate of tests taken (Germany is over 8%).

The vaccination rate in Germany is 1% less than the UK.

No issues entering Germany from UK. If fully vaccinated no quarantine or predeparture tests to take.

 

[seagull]

Germany has a significantly lower rate of covid infections and deaths than the UK and this may be down to the requirement to wear masks in crowded enclosed spaces, including trains

Ah, just like Wales does then...

 

[NARobertson]

The Germans have made this very confusing for sure but I think you are mistaken


The RKI says if you send proof of vaccination before arriving no quarantine is necessary

https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Transport/Archiv_Risikogebiete/Risikogebiete_aktuell_en.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Ending quarantine: Quarantine at home may be ended early if proof of recovery, proof
of vaccination or a negative test result is submitted via upload portal of the digital
registration on entry at https://www.einreiseanmeldung.de.
Vaccinated and recovered persons can end
the quarantine from the time when the proof of vaccination or recovery is transmitted via
the entry portal. If the transmission takes place before entry (strongly recommended), no
quarantine is needed.

I agree that this is a long and rambling document. Thanks for posting this document so people can see it and make up their own mind. I have seen the German original and this translation follows that very closely in the key part of relevance here. I too got the impression when I first read it that people who are double vaccinated are allowed into Germany. And that is true, but it goes on later to say that people who have been in a high risk area within the last ten days must also quarantine for ten days, 14 in the case of new variant areas. The key sentence, in my view is:

'In addition, when entering the Federal Republic of Germany following a stay in a high-risk area or area of variants of concern outside of Germany, a special obligation to register, quarantine and furnish proof has to be observed.'

At the end of the day, this is not too surprising; travelers entering the UK from our list of red list countries also have to quarantine for 10 days in a hotel even if they are fully vaccinated.

 

[Darandio]

I agree that this is a long and rambling document. Thanks for posting this document so people can see it and make up their own mind. I have seen the German original and this translation follows that very closely in the key part of relevance here. I too got the impression when I first read it that people who are double vaccinated are allowed into Germany. And that is true, but it goes on later to say that people who have been in a high risk area within the last ten days must also quarantine for ten days, 14 in the case of new variant areas. The key sentence, in my view is:

'In addition, when entering the Federal Republic of Germany following a stay in a high-risk area or area of variants of concern outside of Germany, a special obligation to register, quarantine and furnish proof has to be observed.'

At the end of the day, this is not too surprising; travelers entering the UK from our list of red list countries also have to quarantine for 10 ten days in a hotel.

I'm still not at all clear with what you are saying here. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, are you still saying quarantine is required if visiting Germany? We even have a constantly updated thread here where people have just been to Germany absolutely fine using their vaccine certificate, no quarantine required!

 

[greyman42]

How long do you propose we make space for you on trains ?
Just this winter? A few more years ? Forever ?

I don't know if i have missed it but have we had an answer to this question yet?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Oct 2021 ==

Today I intended to travel from Worle to Bristol Parkway but aborted my journey at Bristol Temple Meads. This was because the two trains I boarded there were full and standing, offering an ideal covid breeding ground.

Is there any particular reason why you are afraid of catching Covid?

 

[jumble]

T

I agree that this is a long and rambling document. Thanks for posting this document so people can see it and make up their own mind. I have seen the German original and this translation follows that very closely in the key part of relevance here. I too got the impression when I first read it that people who are double vaccinated are allowed into Germany. And that is true, but it goes on later to say that people who have been in a high risk area within the last ten days must also quarantine for ten days, 14 in the case of new variant areas. The key sentence, in my view is:

'In addition, when entering the Federal Republic of Germany following a stay in a high-risk area or area of variants of concern outside of Germany, a special obligation to register, quarantine and furnish proof has to be observed.'

At the end of the day, this is not too surprising; travelers entering the UK from our list of red list countries also have to quarantine for 10 days in a hotel even if they are fully vaccinated.

My interpretation is different as I have read the whole document
It does say 10 days as you correctly state but further down waivers this requirement if one uploads a vaccine passport

Ending quarantine: Quarantine at home may be ended early if proof of recovery, proof
of vaccination or a negative test result is submitted via upload portal of the digital
registration on entry at https://www.einreiseanmeldung.de. The individual link on the
registration confirmation (PDF document) should be used to upload the proof of recovery,
proof of vaccination or a negative test result. Quarantine can be ended in each case from
the time the negative test result is submitted. If you spent time in a high-risk area prior to
entry, the relevant test may not be conducted earlier than five days after entry (test to
release possible from day five following entry). Vaccinated and recovered persons can end
the quarantine from the time when the proof of vaccination or recovery is transmitted via
the entry portal. If the transmission takes place before entry (strongly recommended), no
quarantine is needed.
• Following a stay in an area of variants of concern, the duration of the 14-day quarantine
may not be shortened.

 

[Horizon22]

It's nowhere near that, given people who are unwell or have tested positive won't be on trains. Furthermore, as I said before, a huge proportion are children, who are again less likely to be on trains.

Not sure about that - with commuting down, the percentage of children on trains on the way to school will be a much higher percentage in the mornings and afternoons.