*RESOLVED* Family member caught with wrong ticket

[Wethebest838]

hey guys, need some advice.

a family member was caught with the wrong ticket and they were told they will face prosecution and a fine of 40-500£ for this. It’s been the first ever time this has happened, the reason why it was the wrong ticket as they are on universal credit and could not afford it to see family members for comforting as they are currently written off universal credit by the doctor for extreme anxiety and depression and visit them to ease this.

what happens now? will it just be a fine on a letter then it can be paid? Will they go to court? Can the fine be offered to be paid directly to the company? Does this result in a criminal record even if it’s paidsIt sounds like the inspector was threatening hard. It’s a first offence, I know it doesn’t matter if it’s first offence but just wondered if it’s always £400-£500 as I can’t see anyone on this forum and online having to pay that

some guidance will really help put me at ease too as It’s getting me done thinking about it for them.

Thanks guys!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==

also, can you write to them before you receive the letter?

 

[30907]

Sorry for a slow response but you need to tell us a bit more.

What sort of "wrong ticket"? Was it for the right journey but at a reduced price they weren't eligible for? Or something else? And was this the first time?

They will have to wait for the letter, sorry, and then ask for more advice.

 

[AlbertBeale]

hey guys, need some advice.

a family member was caught with the wrong ticket and they were told they will face prosecution and a fine of 40-500£ for this. It’s been the first ever time this has happened, the reason why it was the wrong ticket as they are on universal credit and could not afford it to see family members for comforting as they are currently written off universal credit by the doctor for extreme anxiety and depression and visit them to ease this.

what happens now? will it just be a fine on a letter then it can be paid? Will they go to court? Can the fine be offered to be paid directly to the company? Does this result in a criminal record even if it’s paidsIt sounds like the inspector was threatening hard. It’s a first offence, I know it doesn’t matter if it’s first offence but just wondered if it’s always £400-£500 as I can’t see anyone on this forum and online having to pay that

some guidance will really help put me at ease too as It’s getting me done thinking about it for them.

Thanks guys!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==

also, can you write to them before you receive the letter?

You just might get a letter asking you to pay a settlement for the unpaid fare (plus their expenses etc), which you could then pay and that's it. (That's not a "fine" - only courts can fine you. This would just be a private matter between you and the rail company - no court involved, no fine, no criminal record, etc.)

But they're also quite likely to send you a letter suggesting they do want to prosecute you - in which case people here will be able to make suggestions about how best to reply. You can reply and ask them to agree a settlement, to avoid it going to court; if they agreed to this then it would (like if they offered a settlement in the first place) likely be cheaper than if it went to court, and avoid any possibility of a criminal record etc.

But there's really nothing to be done until you hear from them to find out what approach they're taking, and so on.

And as has already been said, to get the best advice from people here, you will need to explain more fully and clearly what happened.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

It’s worth knowing the worst that can happen - and that would be for the matter to go to court. Let’s assume that your family member is convicted: in that case, they will be punished. But the punishment will be a fine, and there will also be court costs and compensation to pay. Depending on the specific charge, the conviction might also be recorded for a year (although it might need to be mentioned for longer for things like applying for a job involving money handling or personal care).

And that’s it. Your family member will not go to prison - that could only happen if there were substantial aggravating matters such as violence against the railway staff. And having a recorded conviction does not necessarily close off job and volunteering opportunities: it’s something embarrassing to admit, but the potential employer will have to make a judgement about whether it should stop them offering a job.

For sure, paying a fine plus cost isn’t easy (and will probably be more than any out of court settlement that the railway may offer). But that really is the worst that can happen.

 

[Wethebest838]

Sorry for a slow response but you need to tell us a bit more.

What sort of "wrong ticket"? Was it for the right journey but at a reduced price they weren't eligible for? Or something else? And was this the first time?

They will have to wait for the letter, sorry, and then ask for more advice.

Hey!

sure, sorry I was blunt. Didn’t wanna write too much! Hahahaha. But basically they were coming back from seeing family to stop loneliness and help their depression (which they have a doctors note for) and went to buy a ticket but their railcard had expired for a return back (they were staying for a period of time so a return at the time wasn’t made) and the only ticket they could afford is from Wembley to Marylebone as they are on universal credit living alone and plus the huge slash to universal credit is coming, we are worried enough. This is also the first ever time. No previous record or anything of them being caught

im hoping we can do a settlement as we have all agreed to come together to pay anything, especially to stop this getting a record. I’m hoping they will reach a settlement, we’re willing to all chip in so that it’s more than enough to cover and the family member will pay us back monthly which we will mention on the reply. This is chiltern railways. I’ve seen that TFL as well don’t do settlements anymore which is interesting.

I told them when they get the letter, to write back with the great advice I see others get which is to apologise, own up, tell them a brief reason why and say you are willing to cover any money they have lost. How long do letters takes?

 

[Wethebest838]

It’s worth knowing the worst that can happen - and that would be for the matter to go to court. Let’s assume that your family member is convicted: in that case, they will be punished. But the punishment will be a fine, and there will also be court costs and compensation to pay. Depending on the specific charge, the conviction might also be recorded for a year (although it might need to be mentioned for longer for things like applying for a job involving money handling or personal care).

And that’s it. Your family member will not go to prison - that could only happen if there were substantial aggravating matters such as violence against the railway staff. And having a recorded conviction does not necessarily close off job and volunteering opportunities: it’s something embarrassing to admit, but the potential employer will have to make a judgement about whether it should stop them offering a job.

For sure, paying a fine plus cost isn’t easy (and will probably be more than any out of court settlement that the railway may offer). But that really is the worst that can happen.

Oh so they wouldn’t go to prison? I’m not sounding silly just I heard that could happen ):

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We really could do with knowing some more details about the journey your family member made but here's the advice I normally give to other posters who seek our advice in similar circumstances. No-one is going to prison for a railway ticketing matter.

You are likely to receive a letter from the train company (or an investigation company acting on their behalf) which will probably take a few weeks to arrive saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. Most train companies are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and the train company would be well within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court.

If you are offered a settlement the amount varies depending on the train company and circumstances but tend to be a few hundred pounds plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter when it arrives (with personal details removed) and I'm sure members on here will be happy to assist in proof reading your reply.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Oh so they wouldn’t go to prison? I’m not sounding silly just I heard that could happen ):

No. No prison. My understanding is that the sentencing guidelines that judges and magistrates have to follow don’t allow prison, and in practice I’ve never heard of anyone being sent to prison for not paying a train fare. If someone has been convicted of other things as well at the same time then those other things might lead to prison - but if not having paid a train fare is the only issue, then your family member will not end up in prison.

 

[Wethebest838]

No. No prison. My understanding is that the sentencing guidelines that judges and magistrates have to follow don’t allow prison, and in practice I’ve never heard of anyone being sent to prison for not paying a train fare. If someone has been convicted of other things as well at the same time then those other things might lead to prison - but if not having paid a train fare is the only issue, then your family member will not end up in prison.

Awesome. This all makes me feel better. I’m hoping to do a settlement, even willing to pay more than what they want. The family member has learnt this lesson and we have now taught them to reach and out and not feel ashamed to ask for help. We are willing to offer £300 to the company depending how much they want to cover the ticket, admin fee’s and any money they lost. Thanks again guys, it really has me less worried for them. You guys are an nice bunch

 

[Fawkes Cat]

We are willing to offer £300 to the company depending how much they want to cover the ticket, admin fee’s and any money they lost.

Your family member should bear in mind that if a chance to settle is offered, in practice it's on a 'take it or leave it' basis. So if the railway offer a chance to settle for (for example) £350, your family member won't be able to negotiate it down to £300: instead, the railway will just take the matter to court, where the fine and costs are likely to be higher.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What sort of "wrong ticket"? Was it for the right journey but at a reduced price they weren't eligible for? Or something else? And was this the first time?

@Wethebest838 . Are you able to further advise?

Are we talking of an adult using a child ticket?

A railcard discounted ticket but with no valid railcard held.

An advance ticket on the wrong train?

Ticket(s) for sections of the journey (at the start and end in order to work the barriers) but with no valid ticket for the middle section?

One occasion or numerous occasions until caught? (It may be possible for the Train Company to check through your family member's ticket purchasing history.)

 

[Wethebest838]

Your family member should bear in mind that if a chance to settle is offered, in practice it's on a 'take it or leave it' basis. So if the railway offer a chance to settle for (for example) £350, your family member won't be able to negotiate it down to £300: instead, the railway will just take the matter to court, where the fine and costs are likely to be higher.

oh yeah! of course. we will pay whatever has to be paid

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2021 ==

@Wethebest838 . Are you able to further advise?

Are we talking of an adult using a child ticket?

A railcard discounted ticket but with no valid railcard held.

An advance ticket on the wrong train?

Ticket(s) for sections of the journey (at the start and end in order to work the barriers) but with no valid ticket for the middle section?

One occasion or numerous occasions until caught? (It may be possible for the Train Company to check through your family member's ticket purchasing history.)

yeah i know! sorry about that

it was ticket on the wrong train. it is the first-ever occasion. by this rate, they just gotta take it on the chin!

 

[Islineclear3_1]

If your family member gets a letter asking for their version of events, it's important for them to engage with the railway company and show contrite in their response (i.e. that they are genuinely sorry). He or she would not want this going to court.

As others have said, if the train company offers a settlement (e.g. £300, £350, £400), pay it without hesitation. There is usually no room for negotiation and if the settlement isn't paid, then the railway will most likely summon your family member to court where the costs will be higher than the settlement

 

[WesternLancer]

oh yeah! of course. we will pay whatever has to be paid

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2021 ==


yeah i know! sorry about that

it was ticket on the wrong train. it is the first-ever occasion. by this rate, they just gotta take it on the chin!

Issue to be aware of (given the person is on Universal Credit) is that if the train company offer a settlement sum the railway / train company will want payment in full immediately (so you may need to help your relative with that costs of that?) - if it went to court it may be possible to pay any fine imposed in installments - but that fine likely to be higher than the settlement.

The railway won't just write and ask for a settlement payment. They will likely write and ask first for your relatives 'version of events', or something like that wording - they or you must respond to this letter as this is where you have the chance to apologise and ask if it is possible to settle before court (which they are not obliged to do).

So when the letter arrives head back here for advice on what to put in a reply to that. It will help to post a copy of the letter with all personal details blanked out if you can.

 

[Wethebest838]

Issue to be aware of (given the person is on Universal Credit) is that if the train company offer a settlement sum the railway / train company will want payment in full immediately (so you may need to help your relative with that costs of that?) - if it went to court it may be possible to pay any fine imposed in installments - but that fine likely to be higher than the settlement.

The railway won't just write and ask for a settlement payment. They will likely write and ask first for your relatives 'version of events', or something like that wording - they or you must respond to this letter as this is where you have the chance to apologise and ask if it is possible to settle before court (which they are not obliged to do).

So when the letter arrives head back here for advice on what to put in a reply to that. It will help to post a copy of the letter with all personal details blanked out if you can.

yeah na that's fine. we are all gonna chip in to help them and mention that their family members will help and i will pay back monthly which will happen as otherwise they would be like "wtf, then why cant you just get the ticket!"

 

[AlterEgo]

Hey!

sure, sorry I was blunt. Didn’t wanna write too much! Hahahaha. But basically they were coming back from seeing family to stop loneliness and help their depression (which they have a doctors note for) and went to buy a ticket but their railcard had expired for a return back (they were staying for a period of time so a return at the time wasn’t made) and the only ticket they could afford is from Wembley to Marylebone as they are on universal credit living alone and plus the huge slash to universal credit is coming, we are worried enough. This is also the first ever time. No previous record or anything of them being caught

You need to give us some details, because TfL are a tricky company to deal with and they often prefer to prosecute people.

It sounds like the person was caught by TfL. Where were they caught?

Where were they travelling from and to? I assume by "ticket on the wrong train" you mean they weren't really travelling from Wembley to Marylebone but short-fared and actually travelled from much further afield. This is a lot more serious than just a "wrong ticket", it's a deliberate attempt to evade the fare. Is this what happened?

Was the family member interviewed under caution? What did they say? Did they admit to wrongdoing? Were they asked if they intended to evade the fare?

 

[Wethebest838]

You need to give us some details, because TfL are a tricky company to deal with and they often prefer to prosecute people.

It sounds like the person was caught by TfL. Where were they caught?

Where were they travelling from and to? I assume by "ticket on the wrong train" you mean they weren't really travelling from Wembley to Marylebone but short-fared and actually travelled from much further afield. This is a lot more serious than just a "wrong ticket", it's a deliberate attempt to evade the fare. Is this what happened?

Was the family member interviewed under caution? What did they say? Did they admit to wrongdoing? Were they asked if they intended to evade the fare?

Oh this was caught by chiltern (think it was an undercover investigator by sounds of it)

i don’t know as much as that but they were interviewed and said they couldn’t afford it and explained the situation, the guy was understanding and said he was sorry but of course he had to do it innit. She explained the money thing and how she didn’t plan coming down and the railcard expired etc. it was a last min decision to return home due to depression and the railcard would have paid it but as it expired and they panicked and didn’t wanna ask family to help then she had to just figure out the quickest way

 

[AlterEgo]

Oh this was caught by chiltern (think it was an undercover investigator by sounds of it)

i don’t know as much as that but they were interviewed and said they couldn’t afford it and explained the situation, the guy was understanding and said he was sorry but of course he had to do it innit. She explained the money thing and how she didn’t plan coming down and the railcard expired etc. it was a last min decision to return home due to depression and the railcard would have paid it but as it expired and they panicked and didn’t wanna ask family to help then she had to just figure out the quickest way

OK, so they were caught on a Chiltern train. Where were they travelling from? It will help us to know the fare evaded.

It sounds like Chiltern have an admission of the offence from your family member. They are not impossible to deal with, but we have seen Chiltern be difficult to settle with before (a recent case on here took about four attempts to settle and the poster was quite lucky in the end).

Please post the letter (without personal details!) when it arrives and people will be able to look more closely and advise further.

 

[WesternLancer]

Oh this was caught by chiltern (think it was an undercover investigator by sounds of it)

i don’t know as much as that but they were interviewed and said they couldn’t afford it and explained the situation, the guy was understanding and said he was sorry but of course he had to do it innit. She explained the money thing and how she didn’t plan coming down and the railcard expired etc. it was a last min decision to return home due to depression and the railcard would have paid it but as it expired and they panicked and didn’t wanna ask family to help then she had to just figure out the quickest way

OK so if it was Chiltern probably worth you reading this thread (or at least the outcome - post #68 I think) which gives an idea of how Chiltern's enforcement contractor handled the case. Quite a high settlement fee quotes and took a number of letters / calls to get to that point, so you may need to prepare for that.

Til Mitigation (Child ticket)

@furlong i didnt post my first letter that I wrote in this forum, but I did mention that it was not the first time I had done it in the letter. But did you follow that up with actually telling them how many times (with whatever evidence you can supply) so it's possible to calculate the amount...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Wethebest838]

OK so if it was Chiltern probably worth you reading this thread (or at least the outcome - post #68 I think) which gives an idea of how Chiltern's enforcement contractor handled the case. Quite a high settlement fee quotes and took a number of letters / calls to get to that point, so you may need to prepare for that.

Til Mitigation (Child ticket)

@furlong i didnt post my first letter that I wrote in this forum, but I did mention that it was not the first time I had done it in the letter. But did you follow that up with actually telling them how many times (with whatever evidence you can supply) so it's possible to calculate the amount...

www.railforums.co.uk

Seems they are hard work but going through TIL seems the way forward which is good!

 

[30907]

From what I can make out, the family member:
1. short-fared from Wembley Stadium
2. claimed Railcard discount with an expired Railcard.
(EDIT: OP has corrected this)
Both these behaviours are evidence that they intended to avoid paying the correct fare.
This may affect the willingness of TIL to settle or increase the amount asked for.

 

[Wethebest838]

From what I can make out, the family member:
1. short-fared from Wembley Stadium
2. claimed Railcard discount with an expired Railcard.
Both these behaviours are evidence that they intended to avoid paying the correct fare.
This may affect the willingness of TIL to settle or increase the amount asked for.

Oh no no, sorry I might have confused people! Didn’t use the railcard to purchase the Wembley ticket

 

[Mcr Warrior]

@Wethebest838 , are you yourself the "Family Member" referenced in post #1 ?

What "wrong ticket" (if any) did you/they actually have?

 

[Wethebest838]

@Wethebest838 , are you yourself the "Family Member" referenced in post #1 ?

What "wrong ticket" (if any) did you/they actually have?

I’m not the family member, just very close to them so I’ve heard it all!

 

[AlterEgo]

I’m not the family member, just very close to them so I’ve heard it all!

What ticket did they have, and what journey did they actually make?

 

[6Gman]

Oh no no, sorry I might have confused people! Didn’t use the railcard to purchase the Wembley ticket

I think it would help everyone if you explained exactly what happened because your answers seem a little confused.

What journey was undertaken? What ticket was held for the journey?

 

[Wethebest838]

From what I can make out, the family member:
1. short-fared from Wembley Stadium
2. claimed Railcard discount with an expired Railcard.
(EDIT: OP has corrected this)
Both these behaviours are evidence that they intended to avoid paying the correct fare.
This may affect the willingness of TIL to settle or increase the amount asked for.

Do you know how long it takes to receive a letter?
Does anyone know if you can call TIL and sort it before receiving the letter?

 

[Darandio]

Do you know how long it takes to receive a letter?
Does anyone know if you can call TIL and sort it before receiving the letter?

It would really help if you answered one of the multiple requests for more information. If you repeatedly refuse to provide what is needed in order to help then why are you here?

 

[Wethebest838]

It would really help if you answered one of the multiple requests for more information. If you repeatedly refuse to provide what is needed in order to help then why are you here?

I am in the process of doing this right now! I was just not looking at all the replies, sorry

 

[Darandio]

I am in the process of doing this right now! I was just not looking at all the replies, sorry

No worries. Hopefully what information you provide can help people assist you and get the best outcome!