ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[PaulMc7]

I think you have the wrong end of the stick.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==


Why would traincrew want to work 5 days per week when they currently work 4?

Balance it with smaller shifts?

I know if it was me I'd much rather do 4 8 hours and a 6 hour shift per week for example than say 4 9 and a half etc

 

[6Z09]

Sunday should be part of the working week in theory given the industry requirements but you could probably find a fair way to do the working week. 5 days from any 7 for example would be fine surely? Obviously include flexibility so you know in advance what shifts you'd have and so the same people don't do every Sunday either.

And in many sectors of the rail industry that has been done .
Salaries have obviously been adjusted to compensate. Scotrail in its various guises has failed to address the issue since privatisation.
Hence the current predicament.

 

[Goldfish62]

Yes, this basically sums the issue up in a nutshell. No other grade has been expected to step in and cover for another role as part of their pay settlement, hence the difference in the response by the union representing conductors.

The demand that the RMT ballot it’s members should be seen for what it is, which is purely an attempt to avert the prospect of a strike during the summit. The action would have to be suspended in order to do so, however the prospect of strike action is the union’s biggest leverage here.

A lot of people attending the summit are staying in Edinburgh for the duration. The prospect of no train service between the cities during the summit is causing a lot of concern among both delegates and accommodation providers. There will be chaos if this isn’t resolved.

So what you're saying is that it's more important to wreck the reputation of the railways during COP26 than putting a pay offer to the members.

I'm at the stage now that I'm thinking that however good an offer is made it will be rejected without ballot because there's an agenda in the union upper echelons.

 

[PaulMc7]

And in many sectors of the rail industry that has been done .
Salaries have obviously been adjusted to compensate. Scotrail in its various guises has failed to address the issue since privatisation.
Hence the current predicament.

As you say though, this just points towards a bit of union failure as well as Abellio. It just makes it sound like Abellio could have voiced more concerns and taken strike action so much earlier than they did in order to improve the issue. Abellio with even say 2-3 years left in charge would have been far easier to negotiate with than the current situation too

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==

So what you're saying is that it's more important to wreck the reputation of the railways during COP26 than putting a pay offer to the members.

I'm at the stage now that I'm thinking that however good an offer is made it will be rejected without ballot because there's an agenda in the union upper echelons.

This is exactly how I feel. Wednesday at 5pm seems a pointless deadline to give RMT because it feels like it's going to lead to nothing anyway

 

[snookertam]

So what you're saying is that it's more important to wreck the reputation of the railways during COP26 than putting a pay offer to the members.

I'm at the stage now that I'm thinking that however good an offer is made it will be rejected without ballot because there's an agenda in the union upper echelons.

The reputation of the railways isn’t on the line. That’s your interpretation.

 

[Christmas]

Balance it with smaller shifts?

I know if it was me I'd much rather do 4 8 hours and a 6 hour shift per week for example than say 4 9 and a half etc

No disrespect but a lot of the comments and suggestions on here show a total lack of understanding of just how the railway operates. No two shifts are identical. I certainly wouldn't want to drive into work for 5 days when I can be there for 4 and have more time for myself.

 

[6Z09]

As you say though, this just points towards a bit of union failure as well as Abellio. It just makes it sound like Abellio could have voiced more concerns and taken strike action so much earlier than they did in order to improve the issue. Abellio with even say 2-3 years left in charge would have been far easier to negotiate with than the current situation too

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==


This is exactly how I feel. Wednesday at 5pm seems a pointless deadline to give RMT because it feels like it's going to lead to nothing anyway

Yes,it could have been addressed long before Abellio , but the franchise system probably encouraged short term thinking, rather than take the hit of increasing salaries to introduce a seven day roster?

 

[Goldfish62]

The reputation of the railways isn’t on the line. That’s your interpretation.

Are you unaware of the significance of COP26 and the potential for the railway to show how it can play a major part in our futures?

 

[PaulMc7]

Yes,it could have been addressed long before Abellio , but the franchise system probably encouraged short term thinking, rather than take the hit of increasing salaries to introduce a seven day roster?

Yeah I agree with that. It's an issue that even with franchising could maybe have been sorted with it coming back into public hands but then Covid happened. Abellio are leaving at the worst time for the union to get what they want.

 

[InOban]

Balance it with smaller shifts?

I know if it was me I'd much rather do 4 8 hours and a 6 hour shift per week for example than say 4 9 and a half etc

Whereas there are many people who prefer 4 longer shifts, hence the move to a four day week. Hospital Nurses work 12 hour shifts (actually 12.5, but they don't get paid for their 30 minute break )
It's quite OK for a doctor to assist a nurse with nursing tasks, or for a nurse to assist a Health care assistant with caring duties. What mustn't happen is for staff to be asked to work above their grade on tasks for which they aren't qualified.

I see from the BBC that the agm which rejected the offer was the UK agm in Leeds. Even further removed from the front line staff.

 

[PaulMc7]

Whereas there are many people who prefer 4 longer shifts, hence the move to a four day week. Hospital Nurses work 12 hour shifts (actually 12.5, but they don't get paid for their 30 minute break )
It's quite OK for a doctor to assist a nurse with nursing tasks, or for a nurse to assist a Health care assistant with caring duties. What mustn't happen is for staff to be asked to work above their grade on tasks for which they aren't qualified.

I see from the BBC that the agm which rejected the offer was the UK agm in Leeds. Even further removed from the front line staff.

Yeah you could even have a preference system to accommodate both options of 4 day and 5 day to be fair. The fact I've thought of that and a company running an entire train network or the union haven't seemingly thought of it is disturbing to me though. I noticed that. If I was in the union I'd be pretty annoyed with that in fairness.

 

[Christmas]

Yeah I agree with that. It's an issue that even with franchising could maybe have been sorted with it coming back into public hands but then Covid happened. Abellio are leaving at the worst time for the union to get what they want.

Abellio has nothing to do with it. It's Transport Scotland.

 

[PaulMc7]

Abellio has nothing to do with it. It's Transport Scotland.

That's my point entirely. If they weren't leaving soon Transport Scotland would be irrelevant and talks would have happened far quicker than they did.

 

[footprints]

The demand that the RMT ballot it’s members should be seen for what it is, which is purely an attempt to avert the prospect of a strike during the summit. The action would have to be suspended in order to do so, however the prospect of strike action is the union’s biggest leverage here.

Unite managed to ballot their members with a week to spare. No reason RMT couldn't have done the same if the will was there from the union's leadership.

 

[greyman42]

Do you want a ballot every day?

Why would we have a ballot every day?

 

[Christmas]

Why would we have a ballot every day?

Try and keep up. It wasn't a message against the RMT.

 

[greyman42]

Try and keep up. It wasn't a message against the RMT.

That has not really answered my question.

 

[Devon Sunset]

Unite have accepted the offer put to them. They are now going back wanting the RDW agreement offered to RMT. I thought they were happy?

 

[Christmas]

That has not really answered my question.

I was being facetious. The poster was asking why the RMT hasn't issued another ballot based on the offer that they have just rejected on behalf of their members. If you can't keep up or humour flies over your head then that's not my fault.

 

[380101]

I see from the BBC that the agm which rejected the offer was the UK agm in Leeds. Even further removed from the front line staff.

The offer was rejected unanimously at the RMT agm this morning after a motion was moved by the Scottish RMT delegates (several of whom are ScotRail employees) debated and voted on. Scottish RMT reps taking their members concerns to the debating room, debating them and democratically voting on a resolution, which in this case was to direct the RMT Executive Committee to reject the most recent offer from ScotRail. Can't really complain at that or say it's further removed from the front line staff. Delegates represent their members at union conferences and usually seek the thoughts of those they represent before attending.

 

[John Bishop]

The offer was rejected unanimously at the RMT agm this morning after a motion was moved by the Scottish RMT delegates (several of whom are ScotRail employees) debated and voted on. Scottish RMT reps taking their members concerns to the debating room, debating them and democratically voting on a resolution, which in this case was to direct the RMT Executive Committee to reject the most recent offer from ScotRail. Can't really complain at that or say it's further removed from the front line staff. Delegates represent their members at union conferences and usually seek the thoughts of those they represent before attending.

Scotrail made an offer today to the RMT. I don’t really think that the reps can gauge a very accurate and representative view from their members and reject it in such a short time, especially when they are at a conference hundreds of miles away.

It’s clear that the RMT have no interest at this stage of balloting their members on anything as that will result in the suspension of the strikes during COP. They have till 5pm Wednesday before the whole lot comes off the table.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

The fact the members haven't been balloted suggests to me the fundamental issues with the offer haven't been addressed.

 

[PaulMc7]

The fact the members haven't been balloted suggests to me the fundamental issues with the offer haven't been addressed.

Surely it should be the members that decide that though? Members at least deserve to see every offer given that it's them it affects.

 

[Starmill]

The reputation of the railways isn’t on the line. That’s your interpretation.

People often say things like that, but the reality is that 'the railway' in this country has had a mediocre reputation for years anyway. People will mainly use it, or not, based firstly on price and then on journey times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==

No disrespect but a lot of the comments and suggestions on here show a total lack of understanding of just how the railway operates.

Or rather, how it has historically operated.

 

[snookertam]

Are you unaware of the significance of COP26 and the potential for the railway to show how it can play a major part in our futures?

Firstly, the conductors are responsible for doing their own jobs professionally, nothing more. That’s the same for any railway employee. Bigger issues are questions for politicians.

The principle that reliable and inexpensive public transport will be a major tool in achieving emissions targets remains the same regardless of whether or not a strike happens next week.

The blame for the strike ultimately lies with those who hold the purse strings, with their give with one hand, take with the othe offer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2021 ==

People often say things like that, but the reality is that 'the railway' in this country has had a mediocre reputation for years anyway. People will mainly use it, or not, based firstly on price and then on journey times.

Agreed. The political class could address these issues at the strike of a pen, but they choose not to. That is a far wider issue than this strike.

 

[43096]

The blame for the strike ultimately lies with those who hold the purse strings, with their give with one hand, take with the othe offer.

Disagree. It takes two (or more) to make an agreement and likewise two (or more) to have a dispute. The responsibility is all round: management, staff, union and government and as usual it is the customer being screwed as a result.

 

[Christmas]

Until everyone gets themselves a magic carpet, the railway is the way to go. The commuters may never return in the same volume as before and future timetables will reflect that. The fact remains that for everyone else, even those Monday to Friday people, the train is the most sensible way of getting around.

 

[PaulMc7]

Until everyone gets themselves a magic carpet, the railway is the way to go. The commuters may never return in the same volume as before and future timetables will reflect that. The fact remains that for everyone else, even those Monday to Friday people, the train is the most sensible way of getting around.

That depends on your needs to be fair. The bus has generally always been miles better than the train for me and far cheaper plus for others car will genuinely always be better. These strikes will only add to the alternatives more than anything if not plenty already. Forking out on taxis will have made people switch months ago too even with just Sundays affected.

 

[ld0595]

Until everyone gets themselves a magic carpet, the railway is the way to go. The commuters may never return in the same volume as before and future timetables will reflect that. The fact remains that for everyone else, even those Monday to Friday people, the train is the most sensible way of getting around.

Given the price of tickets, slashing of timetables and never ending strikes, the railway isn't the way to go for the vast majority of people and won't be any time soon.

I'd love to take the train more often but it's not worth the extra expense for far less convenience. I'm sure most people will have the same sentiment.

 

[Starmill]

That depends on your needs to be fair. The bus has generally always been miles better than the train for me and far cheaper plus for others car will genuinely always be better. These strikes will only add to the alternatives more than anything if not plenty already. Forking out on taxis will have made people switch months ago too even with just Sundays affected.

Glasgow is literally sliced in half by motorway, and the city is surrounded by other major roads including the M77, M80 and M74. Enormous chunks of land in Glasgow, which should be for people and the buildings we use, is set aside for cars.