ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[Carntyne]

The RMT leadership has today has shown they're only trying to cause disruption to COP26. Changing their demands again to keep the dispute going. Not consulting the members.

 

[Starmill]

Last figure I read was Abellio had lost £350m operating the current contract.

Indeed, they may make a profit but many don't manage to. Arriva also made astonishingly large losses at Northern before exiting.

 

[320320]

That's like blaming the negotiator for the hostage being killed when the negotiator failed to pay the ransom / release the political prisoners / whatever. The hostage takers are the ones choosing to take a hostage. [Edit - analogy changed]

Great analogy, (by great I mean terrible) but you’ve missed the part where the negotiator has agreed to pay the ransom for the first hostage but has told the second one they’re not as valuable as the first so they won’t be paying for them.

As noted, I spent 2+ hours reading ~300 posts in this thread. That was research.

This dispute has been going on for over 7 months but you think that spending 2 hours, reading 300 posts on this forum amounts to research, and after all that you’ve decided the staff are at the only ones at fault.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2021 ==

The RMT leadership has today has shown they're only trying to cause disruption to COP26. Changing their demands again to keep the dispute going. Not consulting the members.

What demands have they changed?

 

[Christmas]

Last figure I read was Abellio had lost £350m operating the current contract.

It makes you wonder why First bid again for the franchise if it was such a money pit? Abellio was only ever about cuts. Staff made to wear First uniforms with black tape over the F logo, stopping the fruit and cereal bars for safety critical staff, axing the bi-monthly passenger magazine... the list goes on.

 

[JamesT]

It makes you wonder why First bid again for the franchise if it was such a money pit? Abellio was only ever about cuts. Staff made to wear First uniforms with black tape over the F logo, stopping the fruit and cereal bars for safety critical staff, axing the bi-monthly passenger magazine... the list goes on.

I believe First did make a profit on Scotrail, so they will have bid again with something similar. But Abellio outbid them, presumably by claiming they could run it cheaper with less subsidy.

 

[ainsworth74]

Aren't forum staff supposed to neutral and not subjective?

In matters relating to moderation yes. In all other matters we can post our own thoughts and opinions. It's one of the reasons we use red text to help indicate the difference between us posting like any other member and when we're posting in our capacity as Forum Staff.

If you (or anyone else) have further questions on this topic I'd ask you to use the Contact Us button at the bottom of every page or send a Conversation message (PM).

 

[Christmas]

Perhaps the words Staff, Moderator, Coordinator and Event Staff shouldn't be on display when these members post their personal thoughts which deride ScotRail union members for having the bare faced cheek to defend their jobs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2021 ==

Perhaps the words Staff, Moderator, Coordinator and Event Staff shouldn't be on display when these members post their personal thoughts which deride ScotRail union members for having the bare faced cheek to defend their jobs.

It makes this forum seem like a place where railway staff aren't welcome.

 

[Darandio]

Perhaps the words Staff, Moderator, Coordinator and Event Staff shouldn't be on display when these members post their personal thoughts which deride ScotRail union members for having the bare faced cheek to defend their jobs.

So how would that work? You already know they are a member of staff. It just smacks of someone trying to silence an opposing opinion. It's a discussion forum, not everyone is here to tell you that you are right.

 

[PaulMc7]

Perhaps the words Staff, Moderator, Coordinator and Event Staff shouldn't be on display when these members post their personal thoughts which deride ScotRail union members for having the bare faced cheek to defend their jobs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2021 ==


It makes this forum seem like a place where railway staff aren't welcome.

Railway staff are welcome on here and are accommodated as well as every other forum member. The thing is though not everyone will share your opinion. It's not an echo chamber like Twitter, Facebook etc.

Everyone has viewpoints from different thought processes and that's perfectly fine especially as the effects of a potential pay rise etc need to be thought of. It's not as black and white as the union must get what they want.

 

[LowLevel]

Perhaps the words Staff, Moderator, Coordinator and Event Staff shouldn't be on display when these members post their personal thoughts which deride ScotRail union members for having the bare faced cheek to defend their jobs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2021 ==


It makes this forum seem like a place where railway staff aren't welcome.

It isn't a railway staff forum. Not all railway staff will have the same opinion on the ScotRail dispute let alone enthusiasts and other interested parties. You either have to live with that or move on. I say that in the nicest way possible as a guard in the RMT with a reasonable length of service who has also been using railway forums for the last 20 years.

The forum staff have the right to their own views.

 

[Watershed]

Perhaps the words Staff, Moderator, Coordinator and Event Staff shouldn't be on display when these members post their personal thoughts which deride ScotRail union members for having the bare faced cheek to defend their jobs.

In what way do you perceive @Starmill's post to have derided Scotrail union members? Or does anything that questions your views deride RMT members?

It makes this forum seem like a place where railway staff aren't welcome.

Railway staff are welcome on this forum and indeed a sizeable proportion of both the membership and moderation team is made up of railway staff. But that does not mean that they will necessarily agree with your views.

 

[Dansomedan]

The RMT leadership has today has shown they're only trying to cause disruption to COP26. Changing their demands again to keep the dispute going. Not consulting the members.

Nonsense. There will be no pay deal until the terms and conditions included in the offer are revoked. I thought when the proposed strike during cop26 was announced it would never happen. Now I’m almost convinced it will.

 

[Horizon22]

It’s certainly not “petty and insignificant“ to the people that have been on strike over pay and conditions since March.
Maybe, if you deem it to be such a trivial issue in the grand scheme of things, you should be complaining about Scotrail and the Scottish government not sorting it out rather than blaming the “selfish” staff.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2021 ==

But why should Scotrail staff be taking this particularly badly compared to any other TOC who are in the same boat regarding pay? There's no industrial action on the cards elsewhere. You have to appreciate the optics are incredibly poor when there's a big national event ongoing and it's the only operator affected. If the rest of the country's railway companies were in dispute sure, but they're not...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2021 ==

Again I think there’s a bit of a misconception on the issue of helping out with revenue protection. I’m sure when a guard or TE is spare, if you ask them nicely, they’ll help with queue busting. That’s them doing a favour to help out.

The issue becomes when time on revenue protection becomes booked work. If that cannot already be inserted into an existing diagram/booked work, then an additional diagram will need to be created to cover it. To create an additional diagram, you need enough staff employed in the grade to cover these turns of duty. If Scotrail are not willing to do this, the additional diagram shouldn’t be created.

The member of traincrew is either ‘spare’, meaning they have no booked work, or they are allocated to booked work by covering a diagram (or roster). They can’t be both. There is no middle ground on this. I appreciate this is difficult for those with no railway experience to grasp, but that’s the way the railway operates.

My impression of this would be the resources clerk or whoever saying: "oh you're spare great, let me see what's going on on the gateline" - makes an enquiry "nope they're fully covered today, no worries" or "oh yep they could do with some assistance today, I'll call you if we need you to work a train instead".

This is the sort of sensible flexibility that could easily be added at some stations. The situation you do want to avoid though is station management teams deliberately not getting their own staff to do RDW/overtime or not recruiting to establishment because they know a guard will be around to assist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2021 ==

Perhaps the words Staff, Moderator, Coordinator and Event Staff shouldn't be on display when these members post their personal thoughts which deride ScotRail union members for having the bare faced cheek to defend their jobs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2021 ==


It makes this forum seem like a place where railway staff aren't welcome.

Not all the people in 'staff' roles on the forum work in the railway. We are moderators and admins of these forums and the role is for that purpose only. There are however loads of railway staff on here too who are of course completely welcome.

 

[320320]

But why should Scotrail staff be taking this particularly badly compared to any other TOC who are in the same boat regarding pay? There's no industrial action on the cards elsewhere. You have to appreciate the optics are incredibly poor when there's a big national event ongoing and it's the only operator affected. If the rest of the country's railway companies were in dispute sure, but they're not...
.

As you already know, they’re in dispute because of the inequality in payment structures between grades within their own TOC so theres no comparison to be made with other TOCs not being in dispute.

When the action started, COP26 wasn’t a consideration as it was that far in the future but Scotrail and the Scottish government sat back and let the strike run for months without any attempt at reconciliation and it’s only recently they’ve tried to get a deal.

 

[6Z09]

The RMT leadership has today has shown they're only trying to cause disruption to COP26. Changing their demands again to keep the dispute going. Not consulting the members.

Really?
Are you a Union member?
Have you received feedback from your representatives?
Could this dispute not have been settled months ago if there was any gumption shown by Transport Scotland/Scottish Government?

 

[Carntyne]

Really?
Are you a Union member?
Have you received feedback from your representatives?
Could this dispute not have been settled months ago if there was any gumption shown by Transport Scotland/Scottish Government?

Yes. I have given up trying to speak to reps, seems it is the party line or nothing.

 

[alf]

Carntyne, why not write a letter to the scottish media?
But insist on anonymity. They will agree.

 

[320320]

Carntyne, why not write a letter to the scottish media?
But insist on anonymity. They will agree.

Better still, if they’re in such disagreement with the RMT and their colleagues why not just leave the union?

 

[Devon Sunset]

Why not just email Mick Hogg direct with your concerns. He’s very approachable and his details are on the RMT website.

 

[6Z09]

Better still, if they’re in such disagreement with the RMT and their colleagues why not just leave the union?

Leave the Union!
Only a fool would take such action.
It's because of the Trade Unions we have decent terms and conditions!

 

[Goldfish62]

Better still, if they’re in such disagreement with the RMT and their colleagues why not just leave the union?

Ah, democracy in action. If you disagree you should leave. Dissent not allowed.

 

[6Z09]

Carntyne, why not write a letter to the scottish media?
But insist on anonymity. They will agree.

Agree with what?

 

[kkong]

Agree with what?

To respect your anonymity, of course.

 

[43066]

Better still, if they’re in such disagreement with the RMT and their colleagues why not just leave the union?

Better to remain and try to bring about from within.

Ah, democracy in action. If you disagree you should leave. Dissent not allowed.

I disagree with a lot of what my union stands for - most of their politics and especially their stance on Covid - but wouldn’t leave because the benefits outweigh the drawbacks and ultimately I don’t want to undermine the union.

If it came down to it and my union called industrial action I disagreed with, if I felt strongly enough not to want to take part, I would probably leave. What I wouldn’t do is remain in the union and strike break.

 

[320320]

Ah, democracy in action. If you disagree you should leave. Dissent not allowed.

Why pay money to be part of an organisation that you’re in such disagreement with, especially when it relates to them fighting to increase your earnings and terms and conditions? It’s bizarre.

 

[Berliner]

Why pay money to be part of an organisation that you’re in such disagreement with, especially when it relates to them fighting to increase your earnings and terms and condition? It’s bizarre.

Well union membership comes with a range of benefits. It's personal choice in the end. You can disagree with aspects of the organisation or specific disputes but overall the membership may be beneficial to you for other reasons.

 

[LowLevel]

Why pay money to be part of an organisation that you’re in such disagreement with, especially when it relates to them fighting to increase your earnings and terms and conditions? It’s bizarre.

Because you then lose any right to have any say whatsoever, and despite that the union will still have significant influence over your working life that you can do absolutely nothing about.

There's a few non-union people at our place and they often complain that they are still effectively subject to their decision making.

You can't opt out of the union having involvement in your rostering, annual leave and other elements of collective bargaining even if you want to.

 

[Goldfish62]

Why pay money to be part of an organisation that you’re in such disagreement with, especially when it relates to them fighting to increase your earnings and terms and conditions? It’s bizarre.

Are you saying that for every club or organisation you've ever been a member of you've always agreed with every decision?

 

[320320]

Are you saying that for every club or organisation you've ever been a member of you've always agreed with every decision?

Not at all, but fighting for earnings and terms and conditions are fundamental to the union’s existence.

If you don’t support that stance then why pay into it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2021 ==

Because you then lose any right to have any say whatsoever, and despite that the union will still have significant influence over your working life that you can do absolutely nothing about.

There's a few non-union people at our place and they often complain that they are still effectively subject to their decision making.

You can't opt out of the union having involvement in your rostering, annual leave and other elements of collective bargaining even if you want to.

I‘ll bet you’ve never heard them complaining about getting the pay rises they wouldn’t be getting if it wasn’t for the union.

 

[Devon Sunset]

If Carntyne has an issue with how the union is dealing with this then they need to speak to the union about it. Posting on a railway forum will not change anything. There are multiple ways to contact them so no excuse for not doing so.