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DRS Use of Class 88s and 68s

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dave59

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Interesting use of locos from DRS recently 2x68 on 4S44 this evening and 2x88 on flask trains. Seems the wrong way round to me. There was a problem during last winter I recall with class 88 pantographs (ice) and again recently disruption caused by two 88 failures on the WCML north of Carlisle. What is the excuse for diesel use this time? Is this a reliability problem or are 2x 66/68 actually more economical to use at the moment?
 
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43096

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Interesting use of locos from DRS recently 2x68 on 4S44 this evening and 2x88 on flask trains. Seems the wrong way round to me. There was a problem during last winter I recall with class 88 pantographs (ice) and again recently disruption caused by two 88 failures on the WCML north of Carlisle. What is the excuse for diesel use this time? Is this a reliability problem or are 2x 66/68 actually more economical to use at the moment?
The hike in electricity costs for the freight operators that has seen Freightliner significantly reduce Class 90 usage in favour of diesels is the likely answer. A pair of 88s on diesel is more than enough for a lightweight flask train, freeing the diesels with more horsepower for the heavy haulage jobs.
 

najaB

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Is this a reliability problem or are 2x 66/68 actually more economical to use at the moment?
It's been variously reported that due to the high spot price for traction current FOCs are switching electric services to diesel. Hopefully this will be a short-term thing.


For example: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/cop26-co2-network-rail-rail-delivery-group-road-b960367.html

Electric freight trains mothballed due to soaring energy prices
Operators cannot absorb the three-fold increase in the cost of electricity, according to trade body Rail Freight Group.
 

hwl

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Interesting use of locos from DRS recently 2x68 on 4S44 this evening and 2x88 on flask trains. Seems the wrong way round to me. There was a problem during last winter I recall with class 88 pantographs (ice) and again recently disruption caused by two 88 failures on the WCML north of Carlisle. What is the excuse for diesel use this time? Is this a reliability problem or are 2x 66/68 actually more economical to use at the moment?
A single 88 running on diesel is fine for a flask (slighly more useful than a 20 that used to do it)
 

Freightmaster

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What is the excuse for diesel use this time?
Further to najaB's reply above, there was a discussion elsewhere in this subsection:



...or are 2x 66/68 actually more economical to use at the moment?
That's basically the nub of it!


Interestingly, one side effect of the displacement of 88s from the Mossend to Daventry workings
has been their use this week on the afternoon Carlisle to Crewe 'departmental' service; I wonder
if this is because DRS feel they can pass the increased cost onto Network Rail for running that
train and NR wouldn't dare complain?!




MARK
 

dave59

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It's been variously reported that due to the high spot price for traction current FOCs are switching electric services to diesel. Hopefully this will be a short-term thing.


For example: https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/cop26-co2-network-rail-rail-delivery-group-road-b960367.html
Only because there are so many surplus diesels about. Otherwise they would need temporary intervention (from on high) in the electricity market which would smooth things out. Presumably this will be happening across Europe in some form? Always disappointing when there always seems to be a fly in the ointment for electric freight - sluggish or non-existent in-fill development, reliability and now burning oil is cheaper than using wind power!
 

chorleyjeff

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Only because there are so many surplus diesels about. Otherwise they would need temporary intervention (from on high) in the electricity market which would smooth things out. Presumably this will be happening across Europe in some form? Always disappointing when there always seems to be a fly in the ointment for electric freight - sluggish or non-existent in-fill development, reliability and now burning oil is cheaper than using wind power!
I thought wind power, when subsidy is included, is always more expensive to use than modern diesel. But happy to be corrected if necessary.
 

najaB

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I thought wind power, when subsidy is included, is always more expensive to use than modern diesel. But happy to be corrected if necessary.
If you're going to do whole-cost (e.g. including subsidies) then how about pricing the cost of carbon emissions for diesel as well?
 

hooverboy

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Only because there are so many surplus diesels about. Otherwise they would need temporary intervention (from on high) in the electricity market which would smooth things out. Presumably this will be happening across Europe in some form? Always disappointing when there always seems to be a fly in the ointment for electric freight - sluggish or non-existent in-fill development, reliability and now burning oil is cheaper than using wind power!
There's certainly a lot of diesel traction available in the type4/type5 bracket,most of it heritage admittedly.
That comes with it's own drawbacks like much poorer fuel economy and higher emissions.
Using such traction on intermodals and heavy freight makes sense, but not a flask train,RHTT or NR test consist.

In terms of most efficient use of diesel, there is a dearth of type 3(1500-2000HP) which has proven itself over the last decades to be the most versatile group with mixed use.
ROG's class 93's are still a couple of years away yet,and arguably still a bit underpowered in the engine department,minus the battery pack.
The class 20's nearly always worked in pairs,and the class 37's fleet is slowly being retired, without an adequate replacement in the pipeline, class 93 included.
 

43096

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Doesn't that depend on what is in the flask?
Well, it’s not a thermos flask full of coffee!;)

As I understand it, the contract DRS have for the nuclear flasks says services are to be run with two locos. Obviously the empty workings will then have to have two locos in consequence.
 

najaB

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Well, it’s not a thermos flask full of coffee!;)

As I understand it, the contract DRS have for the nuclear flasks says services are to be run with two locos. Obviously the empty workings will then have to have two locos in consequence.
I was under the understanding that only shipments of fuel *have* to have two locos, waste could run with one. But that they always run with two in order to be ambiguous.
 

hooverboy

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I was under the understanding that only shipments of fuel *have* to have two locos, waste could run with one. But that they always run with two in order to be ambiguous.
I was of the belief that the need for two locos is to stop an potential stranding of said cargo, which of course would potentially cause an inherent risk of terrorist related activity.

It's not just nuclear material that gets top and tailed these days though is it.I've seen many railhead treatment trains with 66's front and back.Not the best use of engine and not the most economical in terms of cost of fuel either
Such a train could,and has, been run by 20's and 37's.Indeed, still are, under the most demanding RA routes.
The 88's can do this type of job,barring the route availability restrictions, but for other non electrified freight,they are not terribly well suited.

68's again could be used, but again they will be burning excess fuel compared to what's really necessary.Also they have the same RA problem.

In pure speculation land, a de-rated HST power car(12cyl circa 1650BHP) with conventional drawgear, regeared traction to 80mph and new bodyshell for back/front cabs would be ideal.Potential vivarail project??
 

furnessvale

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I was under the understanding that only shipments of fuel *have* to have two locos, waste could run with one. But that they always run with two in order to be ambiguous.
I believe new fuel travels by road. Only returning spent fuel moves by rail as the extra shielding this requires makes the flasks overweight on roads. (I know some moves are made by road where rail is not available but that is avoided where possible).

ps New fuel is manufactured at Salwick near Preston and shipped out by road in 20ft containers. The is no rail connection at Salwick.
 
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furnessvale

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There is NO LONGER a rail connection at Salwick ( there used to be one )
Correct. There is no rail connection at Salwick although there used to be one years ago. I struggle to remember if there was an active connection in 1964 when I started work on the railway in that area.
 

47827

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An 88 could probably manage to haul a few flasks plus a failed loco on most routes happily as a single 20 used to do sometimes, albeit not at lightening speed necessarily. Better than the line being blocked though. If its friend was a 68/88 though and both useable it may be the case that both power on diesel sections on routes where there's other trains knocking about that go faster. The flask budgets (quite a few £s per train) do allow for 2 locos plus a pool of spares for the fleet.
 

LRV3004

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88s are still being used on Tesco and flask trains as the rising costs of electric are being met by the customer.
 

hst43102

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88005 appeared on an ECML rhtt today:
 

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jopsuk

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88s are still being used on Tesco and flask trains as the rising costs of electric are being met by the customer.
I guess that as Tesco make a big thing about the environmental benefits of using trains they'll have considered this a cost worth taking for PR reasons (even though their trains hauled by 68s would be vastly more efficient/less emissions compared to the equivalent convoy of trucks)
 
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