Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[YorksLad12]

Reopen the ex-LNWR viaduct line direct from Farnley Junction into Leeds platforms 15 and 16, by-passing the Holbeck, Whitehall and Leeds West Junction complexes?

Was there not a proposal to bring the disused viaduct through Holbeck back into use? It was last used for parking up stock before the Leeds station rebuild.

Edited to add: looking at the map this may require demolition of some industrial buildings that encroach on the formation between where it was connected to the ECML and Farnley Jn, though it doesn’t look insurmountable.

No-ooooooooooo......

If anything, you'd send the slower, stopping service via the viaduct to clear the route ahead. But you'd also have to move a bit of metalwork at the Leeds end; and I'm not sure of the state of the viaduct either, it does look a bit rough these days. It would also knock the "Holbeck High Line" idea on its head (which, to me, is no big loss).

I (still) think that we need more new line somewhere for TRU, which might then end up being an NPR-lite. It's just not easy to shoe-horn in alongside the existing line. But if NPR-lite provides more capacity and faster journey times for less money it would still be a winner for me.

 

[Glenn1969]

No IRP today either. What's the latest on when it will be published?

 

[WestRiding]

No IRP today either. What's the latest on when it will be published?

Not even hopeful that its good to go. It's so late, I can't understand why it's so hard to come clean and publish the document of disappointment.

 

[Purple Orange]

No IRP today either. What's the latest on when it will be published?

It’s been intended to be published with the spending review according to most reports.

 

[LittleAH]

It’s been intended to be published with the spending review according to most reports.

I fear it could be delayed again, given the reaction to the leaks the government have been putting out. A shambles it has been throughout.

Given the post TRU fast service journey time will be around 39 minutes,

42-44 mins is the rough calculation. To hit the NPR targets, there simply has to be new infrastructure west of Huddersfield.

 

[MarkyT]

Reopen the ex-LNWR viaduct line direct from Farnley Junction into Leeds platforms 15 and 16, by-passing the Holbeck, Whitehall and Leeds West Junction complexes?

Was there not a proposal to bring the disused viaduct through Holbeck back into use? It was last used for parking up stock before the Leeds station rebuild.

Edited to add: looking at the map this may require demolition of some industrial buildings that encroach on the formation between where it was connected to the ECML and Farnley Jn, though it doesn’t look insurmountable.

Low-value industrial land and no important heritage features, so I agree probably not a big deal. The bridge under the ECML would need reinstating though.

No-ooooooooooo......

If anything, you'd send the slower, stopping service via the viaduct to clear the route ahead. But you'd also have to move a bit of metalwork at the Leeds end; and I'm not sure of the state of the viaduct either, it does look a bit rough these days. It would also knock the "Holbeck High Line" idea on its head (which, to me, is no big loss).

While the rest of the old LNWR link is reasonable, the viaduct has a nasty alignment at the east end just before entering the station throat, with a tight reverse curve on the old structure, more severe than any of the legs of the triangle. Although helping with grade separation, it's not suitable for a high(ish) speed TRU/NPR approach. Part reconstruction to ease the curves at that end might be worth investigating though.

 

[Purple Orange]

I fear it could be delayed again, given the reaction to the leaks the government have been putting out. A shambles it has been throughout.

it could be delayed, but I’d argue the leaks are not getting the reaction that could damage the government. Right now, my belief is that it will be published in the coming weeks.

 

[class26]

it could be delayed, but I’d argue the leaks are not getting the reaction that could damage the government. Right now, my belief is that it will be published in the coming weeks.

It`s cOP26 in 11 days time so I would hope it will be published before this.

 

[Purple Orange]

It`s cOP26 in 11 days time so I would hope it will be published before this.

And the spending review is in 7 days time, which I hope it is published before that.

 

[JKF]

Low-value industrial land and no important heritage features, so I agree probably not a big deal. The bridge under the ECML would need reinstating though.

While the rest of the old LNWR link is reasonable, the viaduct has a nasty alignment at the east end just before entering the station throat, with a tight reverse curve on the old structure, more severe than any of the legs of the triangle. Although helping with grade separation, it's not suitable for a high(ish) speed TRU/NPR approach. Part reconstruction to ease the curves at that end might be worth investigating though.

Crayon time: Unless you ditch the curved bit, build a new bridge continuing on the same trajectory, skimming the north of the listed Temple Works building and somehow get it to interface with the HS2 station on a different level. Then a bit of new alignment via tunnel/bridge to bypass the viaduct bottleneck east of Leeds Station and connect back up somewhere near Marsh Lane or even beyond Neville Hill to miss out conflicts there. Might need to break a few eggs to make this omelette…

iirc the viaduct was taken out of use when the new electric stock came in as there wasn’t clearance for MK4s round the bend, although the station end stub was used as a siding for stabling these coaches.

 

[WestRiding]

IRP. Now mid November. What a joke.

Integrated Rail Plan to be published mid-November

A plan setting out Government decisions about HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail had been expected next week, but publication has been pushed back

www-birminghammail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

Long-awaited decisions about major rail projects including the HS2 high speed rail line are due to be published around mid-November.

 

[Purple Orange]

IRP. Now mid November. What a joke.

Integrated Rail Plan to be published mid-November

A plan setting out Government decisions about HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail had been expected next week, but publication has been pushed back

www-birminghammail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

Is there a source for it being pushed back?

 

[WestRiding]

Is there a source for it being pushed back?

Only have that article, I do a Google news search for it every day and this popped up.

 

[Purple Orange]

Only have that article, I do a Google news search for it every day and this popped up.

lol, likewise! I didn’t not see how nothing can be mentioned in the spending review, but November only starts a week later.

 

[WestRiding]

lol, likewise! I didn’t not see how nothing can be mentioned in the spending review, but November only starts a week later.

I just fail to believe that they are still writing/amending it as we speak. Right up to when it should be coming out.

 

[Purple Orange]

I just fail to believe that they are still writing/amending it as we speak. Right up to when it should be coming out.

Oh yes, I doubt that the document itself will be getting changed. What I would like to understand is the reason for constant delay. Why?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Conveniently after the COP26 conference to avoid any embarrassment I suspect.

 

[Greybeard33]

IRP. Now mid November. What a joke.

Integrated Rail Plan to be published mid-November

A plan setting out Government decisions about HS2 and Northern Powerhouse Rail had been expected next week, but publication has been pushed back

www-birminghammail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org

If the source of that story is accurate, the IRP may turn out to be a damp squib even when it is finally published after bonfire night:

However, it is now understood that the plan will leave the future of some of these projects [HS2, NPR and Midlands Rail Hub] open, rather than providing definitive answers. Some schemes may be given the green light, but others are likely to be left in limbo for the time being, rather than being ruled out.

 

[Purple Orange]

If the source of that story is accurate, the IRP may turn out to be a damp squib even when it is finally published after bonfire night:

That suggests the eastern branch and everything else will be kept, but kicked in to the long grass.

 

[edwin_m]

It may be sold as phasing the project, with the reasonable justification that neither government spending nor the construction industry can bear too many projects at the same time. But it would amount to the same thing.

The shame is that if the Eastern Leg is left in limbo there would be no reason to look at alternatives that might deliver similar benefits and would come to the fore if it was definitively cancelled. Examples might be building NPR to support Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds trains, a long-term bypass of part of the ECML to deliver similar benefits for London-NE and even London-Leeds, and looking at whether permanently finishing HS2 at East Midlands Parkway would provide some of the benefit for Sheffield and probably more for Derby and Nottingham.

 

[Purple Orange]

It may be sold as phasing the project, with the reasonable justification that neither government spending nor the construction industry can bear too many projects at the same time. But it would amount to the same thing.

The shame is that if the Eastern Leg is left in limbo there would be no reason to look at alternatives that might deliver similar benefits and would come to the fore if it was definitively cancelled. Examples might be building NPR to support Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds trains, a long-term bypass of part of the ECML to deliver similar benefits for London-NE and even London-Leeds, and looking at whether permanently finishing HS2 at East Midlands Parkway would provide some of the benefit for Sheffield and probably more for Derby and Nottingham.

If it is to be a phased project (I.e. everything included), Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds could be a part of it still. It also depends if Liverpool is included too. The sequencing of NPR is a problematic one, because what happens if just a line between Manchester & Leeds is build (whether that be full new build or a short stretch)? Where would the Leeds-Manchester airport services terminate if there is no terminus in Liverpool to reach?

 

[snowball]

If the source of that story is accurate, the IRP may turn out to be a damp squib even when it is finally published after bonfire night:

It seems to be turning out as I predicted on Skyscrapercity:

High Speed Rail (HS2) Updates

Right, given it appears that TIF is about to come to a crashing end, along with any reasonable prospect of delivering a good local public transport for Manchester and region, I think I may shift my focus onto badgering DfT for HSR2 to be built up from London, to Heathrow and then to Brum and...

www.skyscrapercity.com

I've noticed that the longer and more eagerly an official document has been awaited, the bigger a disappointment it usually is when eventually published

 

[Purple Orange]

I will try and find the quote and source but just read about 1 hour ago that it is allegedly a Number 10-11 spat again.

This was not the source I was thinking of but it essentially says the same

The Anand Market - Breaking News, US News, World News And Videos

The Anand Market: Subscribe for coverage of U.S. and international news, politics, business, technology, science, health, arts, sports and more.

www.anandmarket.in

Here is my use of quote in twitter https://twitter.com/GRALISTAIR/status/1451537494659551236

On what basis could this ‘spat’ be?

I edited my post to provide a fuller link from a different source.

Without getting political (or trying) surely Johnson is Sunak's boss and Johnson is also First Lord of the Treasury and minister for the Civil Service. He surely would win if he was serious.

Reading that article, it seems like it is down to the scope of NPR, rather than the eastern branch of HS2. Therefore we can deduce that NPR will happen but it still has a range of potential outcomes.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

And here it is again from another source

Boris Johnson ‘demands more cash for Red Wall rail plan’ in latest spending battle with No11

The Prime Minister wants proposals for Northern Powerhouse Rail to be more ambitious, i understands.

inews.co.uk

 

[edwin_m]

If it is to be a phased project (I.e. everything included), Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds could be a part of it still. It also depends if Liverpool is included too. The sequencing of NPR is a problematic one, because what happens if just a line between Manchester & Leeds is build (whether that be full new build or a short stretch)? Where would the Leeds-Manchester airport services terminate if there is no terminus in Liverpool to reach?

Indeed.

Assuming HS2 to Manchester gets the go-ahead, I think Liverpool to Manchester Airport is a fairly low-hanging fruit. It's much shorter than Manchester to Leeds, in mainly flat terrain and some of it will probably be on lower-speed alignments, so looks good in both practical terms and to be seen to do something for the North (including relief of Castlefield). While not exactly shovel-ready it could probably follow on reasonably soon after HS2 to Manchester. The Liverpool trains could just terminate at Piccadilly, or continue towards Leeds via the connection to the classic network (whose HS2 end is now included in the design).

However, by the same logic, something should start on Manchester to Leeds as well, because it's likely to need more design and certainly a longer construction time.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think the line in the i article to look to see whether the cost is £2x billion or £3x billion and it will tell you whether the Prime Minister or Sunak won the budget battle is notable, though says the Prime Minister has accepted that whatever happens it wont be the £39bn original full scope.
Even a £20bn spend sounds better than the TPU+ budget scheme solely consisting of a new line Manchester-Leeds skipping Bradford and no connection to HS2 airport chord thats been briefed the last couple of weeks.

Im sure the PM has been spooked by the recent polling that the Conservative lead in the Red Wall seats is down to 2% and they haven't green lit any actual leveling up projects since the election yet, merely moved some civil servants around.

 

[matacaster]

If I was in charge, I would release it same day as cop26 starts!

 

[BrianW]

If I was in charge, I would release it same day as cop26 starts!

Unsurprisingly there's a lot of 'news management' going on. A good day to bury bad news?
Note the several things announced separately this week- electric vehicles at Halewood, heat pumps, huge increases in fuel prices, a few grants, NZ trade deal, visas for HGV, poultry workers, Covid rising, jabs stalling, ... IRP, COP26, Spending Review/ Budget ... Blair/Brown- sorry Boris/Rishi ...
No elections for a while yet- what if anything will need to be seen on the ground?
Note Cummings on Northern Ireland protocol- say whatever needs to be said.

 

[HSTEd]

In other words, the Treasury has gutted the scheme and Number 10 doesn't want it getting out until after Boris has been photographed with all the world leaders at COP etc.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In other words, the Treasury has gutted the scheme and Number 10 doesn't want it getting out until after Boris has been photographed with all the world leaders at COP etc.

Whilst admittedly most contributors on this website view rail-related matters as sacrosanct, anyone with an adult financial mindset who can view the amount of monies that have been released by the Treasury since March 2020 in relation to Covid-19 related items, such as the NHS extra funding and vaccination programmes and the furlough scheme in particular. must see there has to be a price that has eventually to be paid and in my own personal view, the NHS should continue to be the leading recipiant of Treasury released funding for the foreseeable future.

One sees the Labour Party usual riposte of "We would have spent more" suddenly become subject to a reality check when the total monies the Treasury has released in the last year and a half have been made known. In football supporters chanting terminology..."They've all gone quiet over there".