Northern to strike over Christmas pay?

[scrapy]

Northern conductors contracts allow for 6 bank holidays in a year. (New Years Day (or substitute if it's on a weekend), Good Friday, Easter Monday, May Day, Whit and August bank holidays). They are not paid any extra for these days, but recieve an extra annual leave day instead (whether the conductor is rostered for this day or not).

The dispute arises from there being 8 bank holidays this year. There is no provision for this in the employment contract. Northern are not contractually obliged to give an extra pay or extra days holiday, but conductors are not obliged to work as they are only contracted to the six bank holidays listed above. This problem will arise again for the extra bank holiday in April and again for the golden jubilee.

Last year a similar situation arose with there being a bank holiday on the Monday although staff worked this day with no extra payment (negotions between unions and management were not advanced enough to bring official strike action).

Given that there is no provision in the contract for these extra days, the RMT and Northern need to negotiate a settlement. Some ther TOCs guards get no extra payment in their contract for substitute bank holidays, some get double time, some get an extra day off in lieu, some get both double time and an extra day off. Northerns position is they won't offer any extra, the RMT say they want double time. Thats where the dispute lies.

If Northern do not pay this I fear it will cost them a lot more in the long run. Strike action not look good if they bid again for the franchise, and as mentioned earlier, staff morale is very low. I'd expect sickness to rise..

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Depending how the contract is worded other than those 6 six bank holidays, any other days (possibly excepting Sundays) could be 'a normal working day'. If RMT agreed to that then they aren't really in a position to demand more. There are plenty of people out there looking for jobs.

 

[313103]

If you are going to nit-pick over the spelling of Crow, then it's only fair I return the compliment.

It's I not i.
It's should have (or should've).
One two may r's in paraphrase.

The only reason why i nicked picked on this issue is because despite always being on the telly and despite always being vilified people just cant spell a simple four letter word correctly, take a look through all the different forum messages regarding Mr Crow in this forum and you will find his name is spelt incorrectly more times then it is spelt correctly.

Now according to my Google (British version) spell check it is pointing out in big red letters the word 'should've' is not a word at all and is in fact pointing me to my original wording of 'should of' But not to worry i didn't pass English at school, nor do i have in my home the Oxford English Dictionary hence the reason why i got a job on the railways.

But that is digressing from the original point of this thread.

 

[jon0844]

I think that most people know Bob Crowe and Bob Crow are one and the same. If there is a poor fellow out there called Bob Crowe taking all the blame, I hope he isn't too upset!

 

[90019]

Now according to my Google (British version) spell check it is pointing out in big red letters the word 'should've' is not a word at all and is in fact pointing me to my original wording of 'should of' But not to worry i didn't pass English at school, nor do i have in my home the Oxford English Dictionary hence the reason why i got a job on the railways.

COED points out that it is a mistake that comes from the pronunciation sounding the same, leading to mistakes when written down.
Should've is an informal abbreviation of should have and is correct English.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Now according to my Google (British version) spell check it is pointing out in big red letters the word 'should've' is not a word at all and is in fact pointing me to my original wording of 'should of'....

Yes, well, trusting an American company to spell check 'British' words is where you are going wrong. Try using a spell-checker with an 'English' version, after all that is the official language in this country

 

[Greeny]

313103: Bloody well said.

G

 

[sheff1]

I am confused by all this talk of the 'real world'.

If I understand it correctly, Bob Crow and Northern Rail conductors do not exist in the real world. I have nver met Bob Crow, but when I travel on Northern trains the conductors always seem real and in the same world as me ... so I must not be in the real world either ... but people who talk about the real world do seem to be in the same world as me (they are on this forum anyway) ... so I must be in both the real and the unreal world.

Please help ... how can I tell which world I am in at any given time ??

 

[bnm]

It's quite simple, sheff1. You are in the real world until you have any interaction with the 'UK rail', be it online, in a station or on a train. All these are in some sort of parallel universe.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Once again foolhardy people slagging off Bob C R O W CROW It is, CROW it is, 'CROWE' it isnt!
Wait a minute did i say Bob Crow? I actually thought it was Northern Rail staff....... Oh silly me i must be really silly to think that ONLY Bob Crow makes staff vote for industrial action. I actually though that a legal ballot of RMT members in Northern rail were to be balloted not Bob Crow.... Oh silly me again.

They almost certainly didn't consider it until Crow suggested it.
So what your really saying is that because you MUST work for flat rate on over Christmas everyone else must? I dont think the real world works like that, unless I am being silly again.

You're not working for a flat rate, in effect you're getting double time because you're getting a free paid day off in lieu of working a bank holiday.

Although how does having no staff and no trains on those days grab you? If the company thinks that staff should be working over Christmas then they should pay the going rate. It is rather fortunate that London Overground have no trains running due to engineering works otherwise the same scenario would apply here too.

I dont get sympathy from the general public when the service is running well, so I dont expect it when we go on strike or take industrial action.

Sympathy for doing the job that you're paid to do. How does that work?

Actually in my terms and Conditions it says 'Conductors will get paid Double time on the following days only 25 & 26 December, should those days fall on a weekend the Conductors will retrospectively get paid double time on the 27 & 28 December'. As an aside the only other day i get paid for any extra is Good Friday at time plus three quarters, ALL other days are paid at flat rate including other Bank holidays and Saturdays, even my wife who works for tesco has better renumeration, she is paid double time for Sundays and bank Holidays.

So why is the (obviously) uninformed Crow wanting to call a strike for something that you're going to get anyway?
The man is an uneducated semi articulate disgrace to good men and women everywhere who cannot see that he's being used by the shadowy politicised figures behind him.

 

[313103]

So why is the (obviously) uninformed Crow wanting to call a strike for something that you're going to get anyway?
The man is an uneducated semi articulate disgrace to good men and women everywhere who cannot see that he's being used by the shadowy politicised figures behind him.

Your opionion mate, your opionion. However i would like to know how you know that Mr Crow suggested to the staff at Northern Rail to go on strike, the only way you would know this is if your a close confident of said man, or somehow used six sense. Are you sure that Northern Conductors are going to get paid double time? I am sure that is what the strike is over, Northern Rail want to pay flat rate.

The anology of getting sympathy was down to someone saying that the strikers wont get any from the general public, what i am saying is that i dont get it any other time so why should i be concerned when we take industrial action. Now hopefully that clears that one ....... again.

However once again i will say it is not Crows call mate it is members call. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ? Infact does anyone on here understand that? As General Secretary of a trade union it is him who has to inform the public of what his members want, so if Northern Rail staff want to go on strike it is their call not his, do you understand that?

As for being uneducated glad to see your brain of britain when you dont even understand the basics of what a General Secretary's role is! As for being a disgrace to good men and women, i could name quite a few but that would lead onto another debate. But i am glad you have got your hair of chest, i hope it is helped having a little rant, so now you can calm down.

 

[CarterUSM]

I'm with you 313103, as far as i know, the general secretary doesn't get a ballot paper, the relevant members get the choice to determine their course of action.

 

[Anvil1984]

Also when we are mentionning Northern contracts and terms and conditions please bear in mind theres actually 2 sets of terms and conditions as they aren't harmonised, there are still the ex ATN and ex FNW who both have different holiday and Christmas pay structure, but all conductors are being balloted. As a Northern Guard / Conductor in the RMT I have my opinions but won't comment further in case any RMT / Management spies are on here.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Actually my dear friend i would rather work on both Christmas day and Boxing because these days are taken off my Annual Leave quota and i would prefer to use them when i want them not have them forced upon me.

As for people in a warehouse or a factory that is down for them to sort that out. I belong to a trade union that represents my interests, perhaps maybe they should think likewise.

"I belong to a trade union that represents MY interests"

And to hell with the traveling public.... Again.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Your opionion mate, your opionion. However i would like to know how you know that Mr Crow suggested to the staff at Northern Rail to go on strike, the only way you would know this is if your a close confident of said man, or somehow used six sense. Are you sure that Northern Conductors are going to get paid double time? I am sure that is what the strike is over, Northern Rail want to pay flat rate.

The anology of getting sympathy was down to someone saying that the strikers wont get any from the general public, what i am saying is that i dont get it any other time so why should i be concerned when we take industrial action. Now hopefully that clears that one ....... again.

However once again i will say it is not Crows call mate it is members call. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ? Infact does anyone on here understand that? As General Secretary of a trade union it is him who has to inform the public of what his members want, so if Northern Rail staff want to go on strike it is their call not his, do you understand that?

As for being uneducated glad to see your brain of britain when you dont even understand the basics of what a General Secretary's role is! As for being a disgrace to good men and women, i could name quite a few but that would lead onto another debate. But i am glad you have got your hair of chest, i hope it is helped having a little rant, so now you can calm down.

Talk about cutting Ones nose off to spite Ones face, go on, strike and loose a Days or 2 Days Pay, ending-up worse off. You are not doing it for anybody but Your selves. Not hiding behind the "Doing it for the safety of the Passengers" Be grateful You even have a job, thousands of frontline staff wont next Year.

 

[cuccir]

Talk about cutting Ones nose off to spite Ones face, go on, strike and loose a Days or 2 Days Pay, ending-up worse off. You are not doing it for anybody but Your selves. Not hiding behind the "Doing it for the safety of the Passengers" Be grateful You even have a job, thousands of frontline staff wont next Year.

So worker should accept any crap from management? We need more unions willing to strike in thos country as the rights of the.individual are slowly eroded. Asking staff to work Christmas bank holidays with no extra compensation is exploitation.

 

[tbtc]

Asking staff to work Christmas bank holidays with no extra compensation is exploitation.

If their contract stipulates that these days should be paid at overtime rates, then they should be paid at overtime rates.

If their contract stipulates that these days should be paid at normal rates (or makes no specific provision for them to be paid at overtime rates), then they should be paid at normal rates.

You can argue that the extra bank holiday in April (because of the Royal Wedding) is a "special case" and something unforseen, but Christmas is regularly at weekends, so the "bank holidays on the 27/28th" often happens. If the Union haven't got provision for this in contracts, then who's fault is it?

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Your opionion mate, your opionion. However i would like to know how you know that Mr Crow suggested to the staff at Northern Rail to go on strike, the only way you would know this is if your a close confident of said man, or somehow used six sense. Are you sure that Northern Conductors are going to get paid double time? I am sure that is what the strike is over, Northern Rail want to pay flat rate.

The original poster stated that this is so. The B.B.C. news article states that, "Workers at Northern Rail are to be balloted..." Who calls a ballot? The RMT. Who is the titular leader of the RMT? Bob Crow. QED. Now Who said that the workers at Northern Rail are to be paid double time? I'll quote you. "Actually in my terms and conditions...." As I stated, if a person works a day, gets paid for that day then gets a free day off in lieu for it, in effect they are getting double time as whilst they're enjoying their free day off they're getting paid for it.

The anology of getting sympathy was down to someone saying that the strikers wont get any from the general public, what i am saying is that i dont get it any other time so why should i be concerned when we take industrial action. Now hopefully that clears that one ....... again.

However once again i will say it is not Crows call mate it is members call. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT ?

Perfectly well old flower (no need to shout) but who suggests balloting and striking in the first place?

Infact does anyone on here understand that? As General Secretary of a trade union it is him who has to inform the public of what his members want, so if Northern Rail staff want to go on strike it is their call not his, do you understand that?

As for being uneducated glad to see your brain of britain when you dont even understand the basics of what a General Secretary's role is! As for being a disgrace to good men and women, i could name quite a few but that would lead onto another debate. But i am glad you have got your hair of chest, i hope it is helped having a little rant, so now you can calm down.

Oh dear, I'm perfectly cool calm and collected but I think that you're a little flustered. Still, it shows pasion and commitment and that's always a good thing in these bland anodyne days. I'm not sure about, "got your hair of chest.." I do have a hairy chest.

 

[bluenoxid]

So worker should accept any crap from management? We need more unions willing to strike in thos country as the rights of the.individual are slowly eroded. Asking staff to work Christmas bank holidays with no extra compensation is exploitation.

Asking staff to work 27th and 28th is not exploitation. :roll: Many members of staff work on these days without any complaint because they accept that the businesses that they work in is 24-6 plus Sundays at some kind of compensatory rate. I thought the railways would accept that. Are you going to tell me that Northern staff are only working Monday - Friday, 9-5?

I do know that some of you will lose out due to the ways Sundays are structured and paid, but the money lost is minor compared to the grand scheme of things.

 

[scotsman]

The fact of the matter is that in previous years, Northern staff have recieved extra income from the holiday rates being paid. Since there won't be any eligable holidays at christmas now, they are striking (or threatening to) to try and recover the lost income as a result.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Do Northern employ Conductors on Christmas day and Boxing day?

Northern have said in their staff brief that [Northern] have not paid conductors extra for 27th/28th when Christmas previously fell on a weekend (2004/2005/2009) as this was not in the conditions of service. They say RMT have acknowledged they are correct not to do so, but still want Northern to shell out this time.

If this is true, the question that remains is what the RMT have told/are telling their members. Have the RMT finally realised what they have traded in?

 

[Greenback]

But surely it's rather academic in rail staff given the nature of the job.

Someone who works Monday-Friday will be deprived of their holidays this year, hence the reason the bank holidays are being introduced. But rail staff work 5 days out of 7 (leaving the Sunday working stuff to one side). Consequently, they're hardly losing their days off; they're getting them on the right days.

I don;t see how someone who works Mon - Fir is losing out. They still get their Saturday and Sunday off, so by your own argument, why should they get two extra days off?

I'm with you 313103, as far as i know, the general secretary doesn't get a ballot paper, the relevant members get the choice to determine their course of action.

It' strange how Bob Crow gets the blame, when it's the employees who work for Northern who actually vote for industrial action.

So worker should accept any crap from management? We need more unions willing to strike in thos country as the rights of the.individual are slowly eroded. Asking staff to work Christmas bank holidays with no extra compensation is exploitation.

Unless the employees have agreed to give up these additional benefits in return for other benefits, which i don't know. All I do know is that in principle, a public holiday that is worked should attract enhanced pay, an alternative day off or both.

And yes, sometimes unions and employees take action to protect themselves. In this capitalist world I don't see how that it surprising or to be criticised. However, some industrial action also includes safety issues which are of interest to members of the public.

Do Northern employ Conductors on Christmas day and Boxing day?

Northern have said in their staff brief that [Northern] have not paid conductors extra for 27th/28th when Christmas previously fell on a weekend (2004/2005/2009) as this was not in the conditions of service. They say RMT have acknowledged they are correct not to do so, but still want Northern to shell out this time.

If this is true, the question that remains is what the RMT have told/are telling their members. Have the RMT finally realised what they have traded in?

That may be the case, i don;t know, but agreements are a two way thing. Management and employers constantly seek to return to previous agreements and rip them up when it suits. A look at the LFB and TfL disputes will show that. It's up to the two sides to try and reach a compromise.

 

[CarterUSM]

I've said it before, and i'll say it again, think what you like about Bob, but he doesn't half get more media coverage than he (and the union) really deserve. I also find it pretty amusing myself at the attitude, 'you are lucky to have a job', because i don't think i was lucky getting it, just better than X amount of other applicants! I believe there is a right to withdraw labour in our dear nation, with some notable exceptions of course, so if the Northern lads and lassies want to strike, that is up to them, and if you don't like it, lump it. No offence intended of course. Just my objective view.

 

[Greenback]

And it's one I happen to agree with. People are entitled to stick up for themselves, their rights and try and get a better deal with their employer. Workers have few weapons when it comes to engotiations, and the threat of industrial action is a powerful one. Having said that, I believe it is one that should be used pretty sparingly, rather than at the drop of a hat, but I haven't heard many stories about strikes on Northern!

 

[tbtc]

People are entitled to stick up for themselves, their rights and try and get a better deal with their employers

Of course. But when you've had a right to something, signed it away (in return for other benefits) and then complain that you don't have this right then it's hard for others to support you (regardless of whether other TOCs give their staff this).

 

[ivanhoe]

I've said it before, and i'll say it again, think what you like about Bob, but he doesn't half get more media coverage than he (and the union) really deserve. I also find it pretty amusing myself at the attitude, 'you are lucky to have a job', because i don't think i was lucky getting it, just better than X amount of other applicants! I believe there is a right to withdraw labour in our dear nation, with some notable exceptions of course, so if the Northern lads and lassies want to strike, that is up to them, and if you don't like it, lump it. No offence intended of course. Just my objective view.

What a pompous attitude to take. I'm better then you because I got the job and you didn't. There are thousands of people in public service who are about to lose their jobs. Rail staff have got off lightly in comparison. I'll defend your right to strike but please show a bit of humility to others who are less fortunate. By the way, the tax payer pays a large subsidy to Northern. Most people who live in their operating area never use trains. Some would argue that the subsidy should be cut ! Discuss

 

[Andrew Nelson]

What a pompous attitude to take. I'm better then you because I got the job and you didn't. There are thousands of people in public service who are about to lose their jobs. Rail staff have got off lightly in comparison. I'll defend your right to strike but please show a bit of humility to others who are less fortunate. By the way, the tax payer pays a large subsidy to Northern. Most people who live in their operating area never use trains. Some would argue that the subsidy should be cut ! Discuss

Hear hear....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So worker should accept any crap from management? We need more unions willing to strike in thos country as the rights of the.individual are slowly eroded. Asking staff to work Christmas bank holidays with no extra compensation is exploitation.

Anybody criticizes My posts again with this illiterate claptrap needs to really get a life.

Do Northern get extra revenue on these Days?
Do the Ticket prices go up to compensate the Employer?
Are there huge numbers of extra Passengers on these Days, so the Staff have to work harder? or, as I believe, the Trains are running almost empty?

My pension won't be going up for the 27/28th.

As for crap from Management, You mean expecting People to work for a living? There are plenty of folks working hard over the Christmas Hol's, including Christmas Day and Boxing Day, for a lot less than Your Basic.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Hear hear....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Anybody criticizes My posts again with this illiterate claptrap needs to really get a life.

Blah blah blah

Anybody who analyses people's posts with Random Capitalisation really Needs to Get A life...

 

[GB]

Note to uksweet.

Sort your own house out before publicly criticizing other people's grammar.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Anybody criticizes My posts again with this illiterate claptrap needs to really get a life.

Do Northern get extra revenue on these Days?
Do the Ticket prices go up to compensate the Employer?
Are there huge numbers of extra Passengers on these Days, so the Staff have to work harder? or, as I believe, the Trains are running almost empty?

My pension won't be going up for the 27/28th.

As for crap from Management, You mean expecting People to work for a living? There are plenty of folks working hard over the Christmas Hol's, including Christmas Day and Boxing Day, for a lot less than Your Basic.

Fair game.

 

[Legzr1]

Isn't there a minimum age before being allowed to post on this forum? :roll: