Arriva Buses (including Greenline)

[Flange Squeal]

If garage space at such a premium, is it possible to outpost some buses at Safeguard's premises, or another 'competitor', or indeed, to sub-contract some routes to them?

Safeguard's Clay Lane site is already quite tightly packed overnight. As well as the Ridgemount site, which despite having discs is now very much a car garage, it also incorporated a small allocation of coaches from Martlands Industrial Estate nearer Woking, and the car park alongside the railway near the University. Could probably physically squeeze a few extra vehicles in, but not a great number. That said, I'm not sure how full the Farnham Coaches site in Ewshot is, so there could potentially be the possibility of reallocating some coaching activity there to make some additional space at Guildford?

 

[alex397]

Further retrenchment in Kent (not confirmed officially).
The 306/308 between Gravesend and Sevenoaks, run by Arriva Kent Thameside from Northfleet garage, has been de-registered from 31st October 2021.

This can be seen on bustimes.org, when scrolling down to ‘cancelled bus service registrations’ https://bustimes.org/licences/PK0001285

This is a relatively long route with an average end to end trip taking 1hr20min, and is a former London Country route. If this withdrawal goes ahead it means even less of an Arriva presence in Sevenoaks leaving just the 402, the Sunday 401 and school routes.

 

[Lynford1976]

Further retrenchment in Kent (not confirmed officially).
The 306/308 between Gravesend and Sevenoaks, run by Arriva Kent Thameside from Northfleet garage, has been de-registered from 31st October 2021.

This can be seen on bustimes.org, when scrolling down to ‘cancelled bus service registrations’ https://bustimes.org/licences/PK0001285

This is a relatively long route with an average end to end trip taking 1hr20min, and is a former London Country route. If this withdrawal goes ahead it means even less of an Arriva presence in Sevenoaks leaving just the 402, the Sunday 401 and school routes.

These were actually former Maidstone & District routes that were operated by Borough Green, then Maidstone depots. When the management of Kentish Bus and Maidstone & District combined under British Bus ownership in 1995, operation passed to Northfleet.

 

[MotCO]

Further retrenchment in Kent (not confirmed officially).
The 306/308 between Gravesend and Sevenoaks, run by Arriva Kent Thameside from Northfleet garage, has been de-registered from 31st October 2021.

This can be seen on bustimes.org, when scrolling down to ‘cancelled bus service registrations’ https://bustimes.org/licences/PK0001285

This is a relatively long route with an average end to end trip taking 1hr20min, and is a former London Country route. If this withdrawal goes ahead it means even less of an Arriva presence in Sevenoaks leaving just the 402, the Sunday 401 and school routes.

Another opportunity for Go-Coach? Or are they fully stretched at the moment?

 

[alex397]

These were actually former Maidstone & District routes that were operated by Borough Green, then Maidstone depots. When the management of Kentish Bus and Maidstone & District combined under British Bus ownership in 1995, operation passed to Northfleet.

Of course they were! Apologies.
It’s the association of this route to Northfleet, a former London Country depot, which led to my inaccurate post!

 

[Surreyman]

Safeguard's Clay Lane site is already quite tightly packed overnight. As well as the Ridgemount site, which despite having discs is now very much a car garage, it also incorporated a small allocation of coaches from Martlands Industrial Estate nearer Woking, and the car park alongside the railway near the University. Could probably physically squeeze a few extra vehicles in, but not a great number. That said, I'm not sure how full the Farnham Coaches site in Ewshot is, so there could potentially be the possibility of reallocating some coaching activity there to make some additional space at Guildford?

I think you will find that the Marlands site is no longer used since Clay lane opened, as you say Ridgeway is now a car servicing/sales business, the car park by the railway is now a building site for new housing.
The Ewshott site is literally a few metres inside the Hampshire/Surrey border and thus has a separate O licence in the western traffic area, minimum 30 minute drive to Guildford for a bus.
The deciding factors in any existing business trying to take over all or some of Arrivas operations is: -
1. Driver availability.
2. Depot space (including maintenance facilities).
Stagecoach probably have a little slack at Peasmarsh, perhaps 5-6 vehicles, they could possibly operate the 34/35 from Aldershot.
Outstations? Well there is an industrial estate at Normandy, Edward Thomas park a few school coaches there.
I would imagine that White buses Horsell outstation would be well placed to operate some of the Woking routes, if they could staff it?
An operator could in theory outstation a small number of vehicles in the Friary bus stn (Arriva already have this on their O licence) but would require a security guard as vehicles would probably be vandalised over night.
Reptons would be well placed to operate the 479 from their Bookham depot but they would need at least another 4 buses, could they staff it? (I think they only operate @ 10 vehicles currently).
The appeal of Falcons bid is that Arriva would not have to pay out large redundancy payments, presumably 'TUPEing' all staff across.
If the bid falls through, then in theory there would be a lot of staff looking for jobs but as per the national news, some might decide to leave the bus industry, many would seek out a new employer who pays the best rate/best T & Cs.
The nightmare for Surrey County Council is that some commercial routes might not attract any interest as potential operators cannot staff/house enough vehicles.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I think you will find that the Marlands site is no longer used since Clay lane opened, as you say Ridgeway is now a car servicing/sales business, the car park by the railway is now a building site for new housing.
The Ewshott site is literally a few metres inside the Hampshire/Surrey border and thus has a separate O licence in the western traffic area, minimum 30 minute drive to Guildford for a bus.

Regarding Martlands, that’s the point I was getting at - that Clay Lane incorporated the allocation from these other previous sites, rather than just being a like for like replacement for Ridgemount. Regarding Ewshot, it would obviously not be suited to Guildford area bus operation, but perhaps some coaching work could potentially shift over to make room for buses at Clay Lane if needed. Last time I spoke to those at Safeguard they were still carrying discs above the actual allocations at both Safeguard and Farnham to allow flexibility, but that was a while back now. It would possibly therefore be more physical size constraints at the sites, rather than having to get additional discs allocated to either licence, that might be the biggest factor.

 

[duncombec]

Another helpful service notification from Arriva: https://www.arrivabus.co.uk/latest-news/services-77-77a-operator-change

Services 77/77A Operator Change​

Last day of operation Friday 22nd October 2021.

Our last day of operation will be on Friday 22nd October, after which we will no longer run the 77/77A service.​

Instead Go-Ahead will be running the service, the timetable can be found here.

Service 77... where? It transpires this is service 77 from Colchester to St Osyth beach, but once again shows up in the 'news' stories for any town considered "Herts and Essex" (e.g. Hatfield), as well as on the nnationwide front page. It was also only posted yesterday (20th), despite the change occurring 48 hours later. But, I guess it is the only service 77 Arriva operate anywhere in the country, so obviously the average passenger doesn't need the extra hint!

On that basis, we shouldn't expect to see anything on the withdrawal of Northfleet's 306/308 (unless they are hoping to win it back on tender) until this time next week!

 

[Surreyman]

Regarding Martlands, that’s the point I was getting at - that Clay Lane incorporated the allocation from these other previous sites, rather than just being a like for like replacement for Ridgemount. Regarding Ewshot, it would obviously not be suited to Guildford area bus operation, but perhaps some coaching work could potentially shift over to make room for buses at Clay Lane if needed. Last time I spoke to those at Safeguard they were still carrying discs above the actual allocations at both Safeguard and Farnham to allow flexibility, but that was a while back now. It would possibly therefore be more physical size constraints at the sites, rather than having to get additional discs allocated to either licence, that might be the biggest factor.

i don't doubt that extra parking space could be found as you suggest but at extra cost and operational inconvenience.
Playing the 'what if' game, Safeguard could up the frequency to the Royal Surrey county Hospital replicating Arrivas 'A' with short workings on 4/5, maybe an extra 1/2 buses. I suspect but cannot prove that this is Guildfords best bus corridor.
Maybe? they could register the 36/37 - close to Clay lane - 4 buses worth, I used to live on this route and wouldn't exactly describe it as a money spinner.
All things are possible but companies need to make a profit and deliver a reliable service - lowest possible costs, realistic and workable timetable/frequencies and above all a good consistent workforce.
Like many areas, buses in Guildford are busiest with school children & pensioners.
Every time I see the 18(Subsidised) going up the Farnham road with 2 people on I think 'good load today'!

 

[Flange Squeal]

i don't doubt that extra parking space could be found as you suggest but at extra cost and operational inconvenience.
Playing the 'what if' game, Safeguard could up the frequency to the Royal Surrey county Hospital replicating Arrivas 'A' with short workings on 4/5, maybe an extra 1/2 buses. I suspect but cannot prove that this is Guildfords best bus corridor.
Maybe? they could register the 36/37 - close to Clay lane - 4 buses worth, I used to live on this route and wouldn't exactly describe it as a money spinner.
All things are possible but companies need to make a profit and deliver a reliable service - lowest possible costs, realistic and workable timetable/frequencies and above all a good consistent workforce.
Like many areas, buses in Guildford are busiest with school children & pensioners.
Every time I see the 18(Subsidised) going up the Farnham road with 2 people on I think 'good load today'!

My original comments regarding space where intended in reply to @MotCO asking about potential for outstationing by Falcon at other operators' premises in the short term, or subcontracting work out. Whilst I would personally love to see Safeguard expand, they do seem very shrewd when it comes to what they choose to do. Aside from a very brief spell on the 43/45 Godalming area schools on an emergency basis after Excetera closed, they seem to have stuck with their established service, rather than going hard on tendering or taking on work given up or when other operators have ceased trading in the years since losing the Merrow Park & Ride contract. Afterall, we probably wouldn't see them on the 3 now had Arriva not launched their A/B. With the announcement from Falcon and Arriva, and given the current climate, I think I'd be quite surprised if we saw any kind of competition/war launched on any routes in Guildford. With you being previously local, and sounding like you still venture in to town, you'd be better placed to comment, but Arriva were very slow to increase frequencies (and indeed Saturdays are still much lower than before) so I can only assume demand really isn't there, or they've just killed it off! Your appraisal of the 18 Onslow circular reminds me of the contracted 81 Barnsbury circular in Woking, which seems to be a contract carting fresh air around a loop (twice an hour in that case), where I also can't help but play a game of passenger spotting when I see one going past. I swear that route has only really survived so long in its current form as it's not really suitable to combine it with any other local contracts on a lesser frequency, and the round trips of 22 mins fit a half-hourly frequency nicely.

I seem to recall Safeguard did run some shorts between the bus station and hospital with their Dart pre-COVID. I've not observed enough As to know if they are/were really picking many people up, or if Arriva just persevered with it to keep the hospital linked to the rest of their network (maybe sell a few day tickets rather than just single/returns on other routes as a result?), rather than letting the competition get the money from people getting off Arriva services at The Friary and travelling onwards to reach the hospital.

I'm more local to Woking, so more familiar with the routes there. Even the established 34/35, which have always been able to sustain a fairly decent combined frequency, have been carrying quite sad loads from my observations over the northern section. Not sure if you've observed many along the southern section and can comment on what its like at that end in/out of Guildford? The 436 has some particularly strong school flows, but again doesn't appear to have bounced back drastically off-peak. The 91 does seem to be fairing somewhat better though. I've witnessed some standing loads, and even during the weekday daytime off-peak some fully seated loadings in both directions on the longer Citaros and Versas (and not just concessions heading home from town or Sainsbury's!). If anything was likely to see a bit of competition (without the Falcon discussions and/or Covid), I reckon the 91 would have been a firm favourite.

It certainly will be interesting to follow either way, whether it just be to see Falcon's handling of the expansion, and/or whether anyone else does think any part of it is worth a punt.

 

[Typhoon]

This is a relatively long route with an average end to end trip taking 1hr20min, and is a former London Country route. If this withdrawal goes ahead it means even less of an Arriva presence in Sevenoaks leaving just the 402, the Sunday 401 and school routes.

They cut it back during the pandemic to every 90 minutes (from hourly), although evenings are still hourly (over part of the route).

These were actually former Maidstone & District routes that were operated by Borough Green, then Maidstone depots. When the management of Kentish Bus and Maidstone & District combined under British Bus ownership in 1995, operation passed to Northfleet.

In NBC days I'm pretty certain the Sevenoaks to Borough Green section was part of a (very) long route that ran through to Maidstone then Ashford and Folkestone (joint with East Kent). The main reason for mentioning that is that the 306/8 could be split at Borough Green. with one operator taking the Sevenoaks leg, the other the Gravesend leg. (I've travelled the whole route on a few occasions, I don't think many of my fellow passengers did, I have felt quite lonely after we had left Vigo, going south).

Another opportunity for Go-Coach? Or are they fully stretched at the moment?

Alternative might be RedRoute, particularly at the Gravesend end where they operate into Meopham via a different route; or Nu-Venture, who don't seem too averse to operating away from their Aylesford base.

The nightmare for Surrey County Council is that some commercial routes might not attract any interest as potential operators cannot staff/house enough vehicles.

And not just Surrey CC, those who rely on public transport across the county as well. If Surrey are going to need to subsidise previously profitable routes to get them to run, it might mean cuts to other subsidised routes just to try to peg back the increase in costs.

 

[LUYMun]

Arriva confirms on their social media feed that they are no longer operating routes 306/308 as it is to "be run by another operator," alongside route 59 which will be operated by Nu-Venture from the same date.

Yet more evidence of Arriva being in a downward spiral.

https://mobile.twitter.com/ArrivaKent/status/1451494285161943045

From 1st November Service 59, Maidstone to Grafty Green will be operated by Nu-Venture to the same level of service.

From 1st November Services 306/308, Gravesend to Sevenoaks will continue to run to the same timetable, but will be run by another operator

 

[markymark2000]

Arriva confirms on their social media feed that they are no longer operating routes 306/308 as it is to "be run by another operator," alongside route 59 which will be operated by Nu-Venture from the same date.

Yet more evidence of Arriva being in a downward spiral.

View attachment 104443

In fairness, the 59 is a tender so it's just a tender loss. Happens all the time.

306/308 however is a withdrawal. It is partly funded apparently but which parts, I am unsure.

 

[MotCO]

Arriva confirms on their social media feed that they are no longer operating routes 306/308 as it is to "be run by another operator," alongside route 59 which will be operated by Nu-Venture from the same date.

Yet more evidence of Arriva being in a downward spiral.

View attachment 104443

Nothing about the 306 and 308 on either Nu Venture or GoCoach websites, so assume neither of them are the 'other operator'

 

[markymark2000]

Nothing about the 306 and 308 on either Nu Venture or GoCoach websites, so assume neither of them are the 'other operator'

Could be going out to tender in which case the new operator may not yet be known but it's a commitment for an alternative operator to take over. Also don't forget a number of operators don't like to say they are running a service until they have full details to provide.

 

[duncombec]

In fairness, the 59 is a tender so it's just a tender loss. Happens all the time.

306/308 however is a withdrawal. It is partly funded apparently but which parts, I am unsure.

Indeed the 59 is a tender, but Arriva have run it for about 25 years. That said, the quality of service sometimes leaves a lot to be desired! The tender change is only for the daytime service terminating at Sutton Road - the schoolday journeys (the morning is numbered 89) will continue to be served by Arriva. I believe this means the only service "needing" a small vehicle is removed from Maidstone.

The journeys on the 306/308 currently under tender are the evening journeys that extend to/from Bluewater numbered 306. However, the implication of the change has been that the entire service will now be worked under tender on the Covid-reduced timetable of 90 minutes, rather than previous 60 minute-frequency, under tender. Presumably an award has been made but is still in the statutory cooling off period, so Arriva can say they are no longer operating it, but not who will be. (Presuming Kent County Council will have also asked if any operator were willing to take it on commercially prior to tendering).

 

[Typhoon]

In fairness, the 59 is a tender so it's just a tender loss. Happens all the time.

306/308 however is a withdrawal. It is partly funded apparently but which parts, I am unsure.

59 has been regularly cut back over the years but has recently been given a new lease of life, spending more time touring the villages (in a Sprinter) but stopping at Morrisons on Sutton Road, short of Maidstone, with passengers switching to another bus to get them through to the town. I understood they could buy a through ticket. Whether that will continue remains to be seen - and there isn't long to find out. Maybe the new set up was not proving to be productive? I'm not certain whether it is a loss of tender, or one handed back. Nu-Venture did operate the Saturday service at one time so they must have some idea.

My most recent timetable for 306/308 I could not find any evidence that it was Kent County Council (KCC) funded but looking back five years the timetable includes

The evening and all buses between Borough Green and Sevenoaks are provided on behalf of Kent County Council.

Could be going out to tender in which case the new operator may not yet be known but it's a commitment for an alternative operator to take over. Also don't forget a number of operators don't like to say they are running a service until they have full details to provide.

If my quote above is still correct, I would have thought there might need to be some debate - Arriva has stated 'same timetable' (hopefully with KCCs agreement) which might limit which operators apply, given their current commitments.

 

[duncombec]

59 has been regularly cut back over the years but has recently been given a new lease of life, spending more time touring the villages (in a Sprinter) but stopping at Morrisons on Sutton Road, short of Maidstone, with passengers switching to another bus to get them through to the town. I understood they could buy a through ticket. Whether that will continue remains to be seen - and there isn't long to find out. Maybe the new set up was not proving to be productive? I'm not certain whether it is a loss of tender, or one handed back.

The change to the service was part of Kent County Council's [KCC] Rural Transport Initiatives in 2019. Originally a pilot scheme for one year, various Covid-related changes allowed them to extend the pilot. This would seem to be a routine retendering following the end of the pilot scheme. Whilst it did cut the service back from Maidstone and send it on a rather lengthy journey, it did actually increase the frequency. I would imagine, but cannot confirm, that KCC would insist on through ticketing being available (they have good form for requiring multi-operator tickets to be accepted as standard on tendered services), but in any case, the majority of users (in my limited sightings) are ENCTS passholders.

 

[Typhoon]

The change to the service was part of Kent County Council's [KCC] Rural Transport Initiatives in 2019. Originally a pilot scheme for one year, various Covid-related changes allowed them to extend the pilot. This would seem to be a routine retendering following the end of the pilot scheme. Whilst it did cut the service back from Maidstone and send it on a rather lengthy journey, it did actually increase the frequency. I would imagine, but cannot confirm, that KCC would insist on through ticketing being available (they have good form for requiring multi-operator tickets to be accepted as standard on tendered services), but in any case, the majority of users (in my limited sightings) are ENCTS passholders.

My concern would be that passengers would be moving from a tendered service to a commercial service, in my experience not all Arriva drivers are thoroughly aware of the range of tickets that can be accepted (or can be issued) on their buses.

Any idea how well that initiative is going in Maidstone? (Has the increased frequency improved things regarding usage, for instance?) If not it might only last for a short time.

 

[alex397]

RE: Maidstone route 59. Here is the announcement from Nu-Venture, who are taking over the service. Arriva are actually continuing with the school journeys on the service

https://twitter.com/nuventure1/status/1451557667860791321?s=21

Buses at Boughton Monchelsea, Chart Sutton, #Kingswood, #Ulcombe, Grafty Green.

Nu-Venture operate the daytime service 59 on/from 1 November. Check bus times at nu-venture.co.uk/59.pdf

Arriva continue at schooltimes (buses 59/89)

 

[Typhoon]

The change to the service was part of Kent County Council's [KCC] Rural Transport Initiatives in 2019. Originally a pilot scheme for one year, various Covid-related changes allowed them to extend the pilot. This would seem to be a routine retendering following the end of the pilot scheme. Whilst it did cut the service back from Maidstone and send it on a rather lengthy journey, it did actually increase the frequency. I would imagine, but cannot confirm, that KCC would insist on through ticketing being available (they have good form for requiring multi-operator tickets to be accepted as standard on tendered services), but in any case, the majority of users (in my limited sightings) are ENCTS passholders.

As you predicted, through tickets available (timetable at 59.pdf (nu-venture.co.uk))

Slight alteration to timetable, including starting a journey at 9.30 rather than 9.25 and the last journey will only stop at those villages where there is demand (so a more sensible approach).

 

[317 forever]

If Arriva is to divest Guildford to Falcon this would remind me of previous divestments of Berwick local buses to Perryman's (which has subsequently become part of Borders Buses owned by West Coast Motors) and, more recently, local buses in Burton to Midland Classic. In both these cases Arriva's divestment helped the local operator become a major operator in the area.

 

[Flange Squeal]

I don't think they can accommodate much more into Byfleet; in time, there may be some swapping about of routes; the 28/73 would seem more easily operated by a Guildford/Woking depot whilst the 436 does fit nicely with Byfleet's patch - coincidentally, four buses apiece.

Just out of interest, here are a few Sunday views showing the amount parked up on a day they have no stage carriage work (unsure if anything was out on rail replacement), and the remaining space at their two units in Byfleet, incase they are of interest to anyone.

 

[Surreyman]

Just out of interest, here are a few Sunday views showing the amount parked up on a day they have no stage carriage work (unsure if anything was out on rail replacement), and the remaining space at their two units in Byfleet, incase they are of interest to anyone.

Looks like they just might squeeze in the 436 (PVR - 4) Maybe they can persuade the powers that be, to increase the vehicle numbers on their O licences?
(I can never understand some of the vehicle numbers on some operators licences, where the numbers allowed vastly exceed physical parking space).
LOTS (London Omnibus Traction Society) in their October TLB (The London Bus) state; -

'It was made known on 5th October that the Guildford operation will close down towards the end of December this year - We understand that the garage site has already been "sold" for vacation at the same time'.

I have no idea if this statement is correct (or has maybe changed since the Falcon announcement), LOTs are normally careful & reliable about their source information.

 

[DunsBus]

BBC Radio Surrey reporting that the talks between Arriva and Falcon Coaches regarding Guildford depot have broken down.

 

[duncombec]

BBC Radio Surrey reporting that the talks between Arriva and Falcon Coaches regarding Guildford depot have broken down.

This also now seems to have been confirmed by Surrey County Council (emphasis added), even though an updated statement has not yet been released by Falcon: https://www.surreycc.gov.uk/roads-a...ort/bus-timetable-changes/forthcoming-changes

Statement About Arriva​

Arriva Kent & Surrey Ltd has announced the closure of its bus depot in Guildford from 18 December 2021 and intends to cease operating all of its services in Surrey from that date. Services affected are: A, 3 (Sundays), 18, 28 (one early morning journey), 34, 35, 36/37, 47, 53, 63, 91, 134, 135, 436 and 479.

A previously announced plan for the Arriva business to be purchased by another operator is now unable to proceed. Surrey County Council is very aware that many of our residents rely on these services to get them to work, school, college, shopping, medical appointments, and access to a range of travel requirements.

The County Council is therefore now working closely in partnership with other operators to ensure the continuation of all Arriva's services without interruption and to achieve a positive outcome on behalf of the travelling public.

The details for all the continued services are still being drafted and further information will be released as soon as they are finalised.

 

[MotCO]

It may be that Falcon has found that it is cheaper to run the routes without any ex-Arriva baggage (e.g. staff wage rates and working practices).

 

[Hophead]

Alternatively, they may have found that they don't have anywhere to keep the buses.

 

[Flange Squeal]

It may be that Falcon has found that it is cheaper to run the routes without any ex-Arriva baggage (e.g. staff wage rates and working practices).

Well I guess having now examined some inside data, they may now have more of an idea on which routes are worth their time registering themselves going forward, without having to pay to be lumbered with the rest of the network.

 

[Surreyman]

Well I guess having now examined some inside data, they may now have more of an idea on which routes are worth their time registering themselves going forward, without having to pay to be lumbered with the rest of the network.

As an 'intelligence' gathering operation, as you say, probably very worth while.
Upside - no staff Tupe'd across, so no complexities re pay rates/hours/shifts/breaks/holidays/overtime etc etc.
Downside - can Stagecoach/Safeguard/ Falcon/Whitebus/Compass/Reptons register routes with confidence in being able to recruit enough staff?
It's quoted as '122' staff at Arriva-Guildford, PVR @ 37 ish so must be at least 85+ drivers potentially looking for jobs, but as per the daily news some may give up bus driving. Maintenance & admin staff will be needed too.
Long service staff might get a half decent redundancy payment and be able to get another driving job straight away, not so nice for staff who have only been employed for a short time.
Still don't know if the depot was part of any possible deal, freehold or leasehold or perhaps Arriva had a good offer for it in the first place?
With potential operators maybe struggling to find bus parking space, Surrey County Council must be worried that not all the commercial routes might be bid for?
Ditto for supported services - mostly evenings & sundays.