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Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

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Factotum

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What programme was this? Is it on catch-up anywhere? I'd love to see that, and see how he can claim a car might suddenly need a new battery when batteries don't just die overnight - and are demonstrably proving to be lasting longer than predicted (not surprising when they're guaranteed for a certain number of charges/usage, and so the manufacturer will have quite a 'safety margin').

I'd love to know why someone would think a battery pack would just stop working (bar a major defect in production, which would become known very quickly) when we use Lithium batteries in so many devices now, and nobody suddenly finds that their laptop/phone/smartwatch or whatever simply fails to power up one day because the battery went from 90-95% health to 0%.
Won't go from 95% to zero in the way you mean but lithium batteries have a history of catastrophic failure
I have had a battery pack in phone stop working suddenly. Accompanied by a release of smoke and considerable heat.
And aeroplanes have been grounded by fires in lithium batteries.
 
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Bletchleyite

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Won't go from 95% to zero in the way you mean but lithium batteries have a history of catastrophic failure
I have had a battery pack in phone stop working suddenly. Accompanied by a release of smoke and considerable heat.
And aeroplanes have been grounded by fires in lithium batteries.

And petrol engined cars have caught fire and exploded.

If you have anything containing a load of stored energy, on occasions something will go wrong and all that energy will be released quickly.

The only way to avoid this is to ride a bicycle or walk.
 
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py_megapixel

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In the Government's new "Build Back Greener" strategy, released today, there is this line:
We will introduce a zero emission vehicle mandate setting targets requiring a percentage of manufacturers’ new car and van sales to be zero emission each year from 2024.

I wonder if this could lead to hefty discounts on EVs towards the ends of (presumably) financial years as manufacturers struggle to meet their targets?
 

reddragon

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I thought there was just a ban on the sale of new internal combustion vehicles. Has this been "upgraded" ( :rolleyes: ) to a complete ban on their use?
Todays announcement bans all diesel trains and petrol / diesel cars from 2040. Currently buried in there but should make the news pages soon.

  • All road legal powered vehicles will have to be emission-free by 2040, including motorcycles, buses and lorries
 

ABB125

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Todays announcement bans all diesel trains and petrol / diesel cars from 2040. Currently buried in there but should make the news pages soon.
I disagree with the principal. There should be an exception for heritage vehicles (such as classic cars*), about like there is (planned to be?) for steam trains etc. An outright ban is unnecessary: by 2040, all "normal" cars will be electric, so basically no-one will use anything else except for the occasional trip out in an old car.

*By 2040, things like a Peugeot 107 will probably count as classic! :D
 

reddragon

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I disagree with the principal. There should be an exception for heritage vehicles (such as classic cars*), about like there is (planned to be?) for steam trains etc. An outright ban is unnecessary: by 2040, all "normal" cars will be electric, so basically no-one will use anything else except for the occasional trip out in an old car.

*By 2040, things like a Peugeot 107 will probably count as classic! :D
Do you really think they'd ban classic vehicles?

They'll probably be restricted to off public roads, tracks, heritage railways. Getting any fuel could be a serious issue by then!
 

gg1

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I disagree with the principal. There should be an exception for heritage vehicles (such as classic cars*), about like there is (planned to be?) for steam trains etc. An outright ban is unnecessary: by 2040, all "normal" cars will be electric, so basically no-one will use anything else except for the occasional trip out in an old car.
There will likely still be millions of ICE cars on the road in 2040. It will only be 10 years after the ban on their sale and as long as they're properly maintained and haven't done silly mileage, a modern car should be good for at least 15 years. Add to that there will be an inevitable rush on the sale of new ICE cars in the last year or so before the ban.
 

DustyBin

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Do you really think they'd ban classic vehicles?

They'll probably be restricted to off public roads, tracks, heritage railways. Getting any fuel could be a serious issue by then!

I doubt it. Fuel will be become increasingly expensive, but people will still be free to drive IC engined vehicles on public roads if they're willing to pay for the pleasure. I don't believe this is just wishful thinking either. Todays announcement is all about headlines and showing the world how we're leading the way; I suspect the detail (including actual feasibility!) is yet be worked out.
 

Ediswan

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I have searched today's announcement for key terms.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...hment_data/file/1026655/net-zero-strategy.pdf

What I found is:
Electrify more railway lines as part of plans to deliver a net zero rail network by 2050, with the ambition to remove all diesel-only trains by 2040. (p153)
Take forward our pledge to end the sale of all new, non-zero emission road vehicles by 2040, from motorcycles to buses and HGVs, subject to consultation. (p152)
 

The Ham

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Todays announcement bans all diesel trains and petrol / diesel cars from 2040. Currently buried in there but should make the news pages soon.

It's also worth noting that the amount of Green Hydrogen contracts listed in the report is 400MW in 2024, that's about 0.5% of the UK grid capacity. As such Hydrogen production isn't going to be anywhere near enough to fuel our cars, heat our homes, fuel our aircraft, etc.

Especially given that gas accounts for a little more than double the TWH of the electricity that we use as a country.

As such Hydrogen cars aren't going to be a significant mode of transport in the short term.

Hydrogen had promised much, however it's unlikely to be able to deliver everything and so those in power are going to have to highlight that (whilst a useful fuel) there's going to have to be things that it's not going to be able to do due to the simple fact that no one is making nearly enough of it for all the promised uses.
 

JamesT

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Tangential question, how would I create @Username references ? One thing this forum lacks is a place to discuss using the forum itself.
Type @ and then the username, the editor should offer a list of matching usernames. In the absence of a specific forum, I'd suggest the Other Forums > General Discussion group would be the sensible place for that kind of discussion.
 

jon0844

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Won't go from 95% to zero in the way you mean but lithium batteries have a history of catastrophic failure
I have had a battery pack in phone stop working suddenly. Accompanied by a release of smoke and considerable heat.
And aeroplanes have been grounded by fires in lithium batteries.

Most battery fires are a result of the battery being punctured or damaged in some way. The Samsung Note 7 (I think it was the 7?) had a problem with one of the batteries squeezed inside (I think the other main supplier had no such issues, so despite grabbing loads of press attention due to a few incidents, most models weren't at risk - but Samsung still withdrew all models because confidence was shot, and later re-released it with a different battery for selected markets).

I'd also suggest that any faulty design would become apparent early on in the life of the product, not after 10 years.

Suffice to say, you want to make sure car makers are getting this right - but I am not sure it causes significant problems for second hand sales. The garage I take my car to get serviced at has just switched to selling only EVs, and they'll be aiming to sell second hand vehicles AND service batteries. They're looking ahead for a sustainable business, and seeing that ICE cars are on their way out (except for hardcore petrol heads, who will NOT be in the majority as time goes on).
 

Hadleywood

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Just created a new thread to discuss this as I think it's quite interesting.


Indeed. Governments and car manufacturers have been foolish in the way they have portrayed electric cars as a "knight in shining armour" that will solve transport issues.
They solve point-of-use emissions, and reduce carbon footprint by means of whatever proportion of the national grid's generation comes from renewables, but they are still inefficient in terms of space and still use resources to produce, especially the batteries which are probably worse than petrol engines. They also still cause a lot of noise and road building/maintainence is still disruptive. And they're still expensive, more so than petrol cars.

Society needs to accept that while EVs are definitely an improvement they are NOT the be-all and end-all of environmentally friendly travel. EVs undoubtedly have a place, outside of cities and towns where providing public transport to everyone would be impractical. But we still need to be pushing people towards public transport where possible, especially if we're also electrifying that public transport. And - even more importantly - walking and cycling.
It's interesting that cancel culture has now spread to forums like this one. Where even the majority opinion is silenced by the woke minority, as we see in many walks of life now. The FACT remains that the massive majority of car and motorcycle users, outside of chore mobiles for work and shopping, would NOT willingly change to electric power. My recent poll on a car forum about this very thing was 89%-11%. Thank you!
People can abuse that fact and abuse and belittle my beliefs all they like, i really couldn't care less, but it's still true that one speed electric silent vehicles will never ever be as much fun as a big V twin sports bike or V12 sports car. Several friends are bike and car journalists and they have told me that it is indeed true what i have said. They get told it all the time. Obviously!
One person mentioned that turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Well by saying that he/she accidentally pointed out that people will only go electric because they have no choice! People won't vote for electric cars they will have them forced on them. Just like turkeys get no choice. You messed up there!
We produce less than 1% of the world's emissions. Confirmed by my MP from a F O I request i sent him. Thank you.
China burns half the world's coal roughly. India and Russia and America between them create infinitely more pollution than we do. Fact.
Electric heat pumps cost a fortune and do not work in very cold weather. My mate in York has one. £14,000 and useless in cold weather. How is the guy on minimum wage going to afford that, especially after all the levvies on electricity are applied?

AS for me? My interest here is mainly trains, having driven them for 25 years. I read generally rather than write. But i am also an ex motorcycle journalist, i had a motorcycle dealership for 2 years and i have raced motorcycles in 7 countries including the USA. I am a keen member of bike and car clubs and have ridden and driven across America several times as well as undertaking a journey on my GL1800 from London to Moscow in 2011. 4 of us did 8,000 miles in little more than a month.
The wokes and eco warriors are going to be SO fed up when it dawns on them that this stupid green onslaught will push millions of people into abject poverty, the country into heinous debt and people will be colder than ever in winter. They may well not even be able to run a car in the future. Turkeys are voting for Christmas!
I care about others, (i am very comfortable after 3 London house inheritances), but i'm very concerned about the poor and the cold in this country. This idiotic green ideology will destroy countless UK lives and is POINTLESS when 99% of pollution and heat is made elsewhere.
What we do matters not. It's like taking a moped off the road and leaving 5,000 lorries burning diesel in a futile attempt to go green. Totally pointless.
 

reddragon

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It's interesting that cancel culture has now spread to forums like this one. Where even the majority opinion is silenced by the woke minority, as we see in many walks of life now. The FACT remains that the massive majority of car and motorcycle users, outside of chore mobiles for work and shopping, would NOT willingly change to electric power. My recent poll on a car forum about this very thing was 89%-11%. Thank you!
People can abuse that fact and abuse and belittle my beliefs all they like, i really couldn't care less, but it's still true that one speed electric silent vehicles will never ever be as much fun as a big V twin sports bike or V12 sports car. Several friends are bike and car journalists and they have told me that it is indeed true what i have said. They get told it all the time. Obviously!
One person mentioned that turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Well by saying that he/she accidentally pointed out that people will only go electric because they have no choice! People won't vote for electric cars they will have them forced on them. Just like turkeys get no choice. You messed up there!
We produce less than 1% of the world's emissions. Confirmed by my MP from a F O I request i sent him. Thank you.
China burns half the world's coal roughly. India and Russia and America between them create infinitely more pollution than we do. Fact.
Electric heat pumps cost a fortune and do not work in very cold weather. My mate in York has one. £14,000 and useless in cold weather. How is the guy on minimum wage going to afford that, especially after all the levvies on electricity are applied?

AS for me? My interest here is mainly trains, having driven them for 25 years. I read generally rather than write. But i am also an ex motorcycle journalist, i had a motorcycle dealership for 2 years and i have raced motorcycles in 7 countries including the USA. I am a keen member of bike and car clubs and have ridden and driven across America several times as well as undertaking a journey on my GL1800 from London to Moscow in 2011. 4 of us did 8,000 miles in little more than a month.
The wokes and eco warriors are going to be SO fed up when it dawns on them that this stupid green onslaught will push millions of people into abject poverty, the country into heinous debt and people will be colder than ever in winter. They may well not even be able to run a car in the future. Turkeys are voting for Christmas!
I care about others, (i am very comfortable after 3 London house inheritances), but i'm very concerned about the poor and the cold in this country. This idiotic green ideology will destroy countless UK lives and is POINTLESS when 99% of pollution and heat is made elsewhere.
What we do matters not. It's like taking a moped off the road and leaving 5,000 lorries burning diesel in a futile attempt to go green. Totally pointless.
@Hadleywood This is nothing about cancel, woke or any such like it is simply the fact that you are wrong and your opinion is in a shrinking minority.

It is well documented that search engine algorithms feed you information based on what you read & search on to reinforce your opinion whatever it is. It even managed to get half of Americans to think that the election was somehow stolen!

There is a long history of people, naysayers trying to discredit new technology by misunderstanding it and creating misleading, ill-informed or plain downright lies. This is a story centuries old.

There is a wonderful video that explains this that you may like to view. Matt Ferrell simply reminds us of how previously we have derided new tech such as flight, smart phones, cars, internet etc and how & why we are doing this yet again with action on climate change. It may not change your mind but at least you might understand your own position.

 

DustyBin

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It's interesting that cancel culture has now spread to forums like this one. Where even the majority opinion is silenced by the woke minority, as we see in many walks of life now. The FACT remains that the massive majority of car and motorcycle users, outside of chore mobiles for work and shopping, would NOT willingly change to electric power. My recent poll on a car forum about this very thing was 89%-11%. Thank you!
People can abuse that fact and abuse and belittle my beliefs all they like, i really couldn't care less, but it's still true that one speed electric silent vehicles will never ever be as much fun as a big V twin sports bike or V12 sports car. Several friends are bike and car journalists and they have told me that it is indeed true what i have said. They get told it all the time. Obviously!
One person mentioned that turkeys don't vote for Christmas. Well by saying that he/she accidentally pointed out that people will only go electric because they have no choice! People won't vote for electric cars they will have them forced on them. Just like turkeys get no choice. You messed up there!
We produce less than 1% of the world's emissions. Confirmed by my MP from a F O I request i sent him. Thank you.
China burns half the world's coal roughly. India and Russia and America between them create infinitely more pollution than we do. Fact.
Electric heat pumps cost a fortune and do not work in very cold weather. My mate in York has one. £14,000 and useless in cold weather. How is the guy on minimum wage going to afford that, especially after all the levvies on electricity are applied?

AS for me? My interest here is mainly trains, having driven them for 25 years. I read generally rather than write. But i am also an ex motorcycle journalist, i had a motorcycle dealership for 2 years and i have raced motorcycles in 7 countries including the USA. I am a keen member of bike and car clubs and have ridden and driven across America several times as well as undertaking a journey on my GL1800 from London to Moscow in 2011. 4 of us did 8,000 miles in little more than a month.
The wokes and eco warriors are going to be SO fed up when it dawns on them that this stupid green onslaught will push millions of people into abject poverty, the country into heinous debt and people will be colder than ever in winter. They may well not even be able to run a car in the future. Turkeys are voting for Christmas!
I care about others, (i am very comfortable after 3 London house inheritances), but i'm very concerned about the poor and the cold in this country. This idiotic green ideology will destroy countless UK lives and is POINTLESS when 99% of pollution and heat is made elsewhere.
What we do matters not. It's like taking a moped off the road and leaving 5,000 lorries burning diesel in a futile attempt to go green. Totally pointless.

As a fellow petrol head I’ve no problem with everyday transport going electric, I’m even considering it myself. Infringing on people’s enjoyment of what is a rewarding and harmless hobby is where I draw the line.

I share your concerns regarding the UK effectively martyring itself for the green cause, however somebody does need to lead the way.
 

reddragon

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As a fellow petrol head I’ve no problem with everyday transport going electric, I’m even considering it myself. Infringing on people’s enjoyment of what is a rewarding and harmless hobby is where I draw the line.

I share your concerns regarding the UK effectively martyring itself for the green cause, however somebody does need to lead the way.
I agree with you

The problem is that we have put this off so long that the measures we require will get bigger and more drastic. If we had got on with it, this wouldn't even be a discussion today because we'd be on a known long term plan.

I loved my V8, the sound and the drivability of my diesels but as many things we may love, old trains getting scrapped, cars changing, that is the reality of life. My EV is the best car I have ever driven by some margin. As we love to ride behind a steam loco, we want to go to work everyday in an EMU.

The old cars you like so much will not be killed off by legislation, they will simply become impossible to get fuel for, maintain or drive over time and that time will be sooner than the dates the Government have announced.
 

yorkie

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It's interesting that cancel culture has now spread to forums like this one. Where even the majority opinion is silenced by the woke minority, as we see in many walks of life now.....
People are allowed to disagree; that's not the same as silencing.
 

stuu

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It's interesting that cancel culture has now spread to forums like this one. Where even the majority opinion is silenced by the woke minority, as we see in many walks of life now. The FACT remains that the massive majority of car and motorcycle users, outside of chore mobiles for work and shopping, would NOT willingly change to electric power. My recent poll on a car forum about this very thing was 89%-11%. Thank you!
Cancel culture and woke in one sentence?

Actual statistically relevant polling shows a strong majority in favour of taking climate change seriously and taking appropriate action. No surprise that a self selected enthusiast forum would say produce the result you claim as relevant, it's a bit like asking if trains are any good on this forum...

The massive majority of cars are bought for their utility, with cost, cost of running, creature comforts, prestige and looks all coming way ahead of anything related to how the actual engine works. So I don't believe for a minute a majority would be put off electric for the sake of not being able to go down through the gears on a mountain road or whatever your fantasy is. That just isn't relevant for the vast, vast majority of drivers.

Finally, we as a species know of precisely 1 planet where we can survive. Common sense suggests we should probably try to look after it
 

DustyBin

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The old cars you like so much will not be killed off by legislation, they will simply become impossible to get fuel for, maintain or drive over time and that time will be sooner than the dates the Government have announced.

I honestly don’t think this will happen, and you know it! ;)
 

jon0844

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I've worked in the media since the 1990s and know plenty of motoring journalists. I'd say that all of them are extremely excited by EVs - yes, every. single. one.

While it might not be the same for bikes, there are so many amazing cars out or on the horizon - the main problem being the cost, but for supercars you expect to be paying upwards of £50-£100k.

Does this mean they have given up on traditional petrol cars? Of course not, but the industry is moving towards EVs and the supercar manufacturers are spending the big bucks on launching new cars, and that's what people will then write about.

Classic cars, which all ICE vehicles will one day be, won't disappear but it will be an expensive hobby just as it has always been to maintain classic cars from the last 100 odd years. The 'petrol heads' of tomorrow will be enjoying the performance of electric vehicles and not looking back.
 

AM9

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I honestly don’t think this will happen, and you know it! ;)
I think it will happen a lot sooner than many IC diehards are thinking (probably wishfully). Several manufacturers have already announced their dates for turning all manufacturing over to EVs and stopping ICVs. Those dates are not 2030 and certainly any later than that. In 2028/9, they do not want an embarassment of vehicles that must be sold by the end of the year, it would be commercial suicide. Those petrolheads who assume that there will be queues of customers wanting to buy cars of a type that will be obsolete the next year are either oblivious to the change in demands (or are ignoring it, hoping that it isn't true). There will be no bumper sale of clearance vehicles that might be kept in use for the next 15-20 years.
Then, after 2030, the combined effect of reducing availability of spare parts, increasing fuel prices, increasing restrictions on where polluting cars can be used and most importantly the wishes of the majority of the population to see them off the road, running an IC car will rapidly for anything other than an occasional off-road event will become untenable.
 

jon0844

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Maybe some people will buy loads of them up and store them in garages because they can't stand to see them go out gracefully, a bit like people bought up outdated, inefficient vacuum cleaners that weren't even better than the more efficient ones that replaced them because 'freedom', or something.

I can just see someone with their garage full of petrol cars, hundreds of crappy hoovers and thousands of incandescent lightbulbs. It'll be the home draped in about 50 Union Flags and protected by a bulldog.
 

py_megapixel

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people bought up outdated, inefficient vacuum cleaners that weren't even better than the more efficient ones that replaced them because 'freedom', or something.
Does anyone genuinely think that disposable vacuum bags, with their musty smells and propensity to make a mess, were a better solution than a reusable container and some washable filters? I'm yet to meet them..
 

AM9

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Maybe some people will buy loads of them up and store them in garages because they can't stand to see them go out gracefully, a bit like people bought up outdated, inefficient vacuum cleaners that weren't even better than the more efficient ones that replaced them because 'freedom', or something.

I can just see someone with their garage full of petrol cars, hundreds of crappy hoovers and thousands of incandescent lightbulbs. It'll be the home draped in about 50 Union Flags and protected by a bulldog.
Oh for a 'like' button. :lol:
 

jon0844

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Does anyone genuinely think that disposable vacuum bags, with their musty smells and propensity to make a mess, were a better solution than a reusable container and some washable filters? I'm yet to meet them..

Do you not remember when people rushed out to buy up old stock before the EU ban? Indeed, the newspapers stirred things up massively and really played on the EU aspect, despite the fact I think it was the UK that put forward the legislation! The UK has been behind a lot of positive legislation, but I guess Nigel Farage never wanted you to know that..
 
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