Uniforms, the smartest and scruffiest?

[DarloRich]

uniform wibble again. sigh. Someone will be along to demand peaked caps and fob watches soon.

What is important with uniform is that it presents a standard image for all staff, offers the issuing company good value, is appropriate for the wearers role, is hard wearing, cleans easily, is well cut, offers proper sizes for both men and women, is made of sensible, breathable (!) fabrics, several changes are issued to wearers, is comfortable and is modern.

but yeah, peaked caps.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best way to avoid that is to walk purposefully, and preferably wear your own jacket so that it isn’t immediately obvious you’re staff!

To me the rucksacks with the emergency release strap are a dead giveaway, a bit like the old BR leather bags used to be.

 

[baz962]

The best way to avoid that is to walk purposefully, and preferably wear your own jacket so that it isn’t immediately obvious you’re staff!

Surprised you didn't let the good people of the forum in on the new uniform for us coming up .

 

[bramling]

uniform wibble again. sigh. Someone will be along to demand peaked caps and fob watches soon.

What is important with uniform is that it presents a standard image for all staff, offers the issuing company good value, is appropriate for the wearers role, is hard wearing, cleans easily, is well cut, offers proper sizes for both men and women, is made of sensible, breathable (!) fabrics, several changes are issued to wearers, is comfortable and is modern.

but yeah, peaked caps.

You missed one important element which a uniform *should* fulfil, which is to allow staff to be able to pick out who is who during an incident. It’s very important to be able to identify readily who is the driver, who is station staff, who is a “responder”, who is a manager, etc. The emergency services do this, even by small things like a different colour cap.

As has also been said, you don’t want certain staff, especially drivers or incident responders, getting waylayed with customer service, in any case they’re not the best placed to answer queries. An external coat works wonders in that respect.

 

[godfreycomplex]

You missed one important element which a uniform *should* fulfil, which is to allow staff to be able to pick out who is who during an incident. It’s very important to be able to identify readily who is the driver, who is station staff, who is a “responder”, who is a manager, etc. The emergency services do this, even by small things like a different colour cap.

That’s the only real reason to have a uniform in this day and age, to identify people fulfilling a certain role.

Other than the minimum required to achieve that (equipment required for safety notwithstanding), it’s a bit silly to have one at all really, in this day and age. As DarloRich so rightly says however, it does seem to be a bit of a wibble infested topic…

 

[43066]

Surprised you didn't let the good people of the forum in on the new uniform for us coming up .

Ha. I’m sure none of us can wait to go to work dressed up as Willy Wonka.

 

[43066]

To me the rucksacks with the emergency release strap are a dead giveaway, a bit like the old BR leather bags used to be.

They are indeed. Some drivers carry their own ”civilian” rucksacks for exactly that reason!

 

[HSP 2]

I did see it in the Post Office when you could have two member of staff wearing the same uniform one looked like he was wearing a badly fitting bag of spuds, the other one a nicely presented officer. Well pressed shirt, clean trousers and jacket etc.

The uniform that I liked was the Virgin one, very smart. It also stood out on the platforms, long red coats etc.

 

[greyman42]

I like the Grand Central uniform. There is a bit of an airline uniform look to it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

uniform wibble again. sigh. Someone will be along to demand peaked caps and fob watches soon.

What is important with uniform is that it presents a standard image for all staff, offers the issuing company good value, is appropriate for the wearers role, is hard wearing, cleans easily, is well cut, offers proper sizes for both men and women, is made of sensible, breathable (!) fabrics, several changes are issued to wearers, is comfortable and is modern.

I'd agree with all of those except whether it is specifically modern or not.

As the old adage goes, you can look very presentable in a polo shirt and properly-ironed chinos and approach shoes, and you can look a scruff in an ill-fitting suit and scuffed brogues (teachers were classically the best example of the latter).

Unfortunately, railway staff and uniforms do far too often tend towards the latter.

 

[bramling]

That’s the only real reason to have a uniform in this day and age, to identify people fulfilling a certain role.

Other than the minimum required to achieve that (equipment required for safety notwithstanding), it’s a bit silly to have one at all really, in this day and age. As DarloRich so rightly says however, it does seem to be a bit of a wibble infested topic…

Identifying people fulfilling a certain role is a rather important function, however. To give an example in today's security conscious world, member of staff travels in a rear driving cab. If in a clearly identifiable uniform then any observer can be reasonably sure they're staff. If not in uniform, who knows who they are. Now officially the staff pass / lanyard is the ID not the uniform, however the fact remains that uniform is supposed to be controlled issue, so although someone determined *could* get access to uniform, the average Joe on the street can't. So straight away you're considerably reducing the risk of unauthorised people being able to gain unchallenged *casual* access to places they shouldn't.

Being able to identify who's who is very important at incidents, if nothing else saving time. Anyone who has ever been present at an incident where multiple emergency services turn up will know this.

It's worth adding that the much maligned hats did serve this purpose, as there was normally a distinguishing feature on the hat to identify grades. It's only as recently as the 1990s that these were a standard part of uniform for many grades of staff. As a member of railway staff there are times when you need to exert authority over people, this is something users consent to when they choose to travel by rail, and a decent uniform should make this easier.

I'm not advocating a return to hats, they wouldn't work in this day and age, but equally a shirt & tie does shout louder than something which looks like a sports polo shirt.

 

[LOM]

You missed one important element which a uniform *should* fulfil, which is to allow staff to be able to pick out who is who during an incident. It’s very important to be able to identify readily who is the driver, who is station staff, who is a “responder”, who is a manager, etc. The emergency services do this, even by small things like a different colour cap.

The rail industry already does this with the distinctive RIO (Rail Incident Officer), SIO (Station Incident Officer) and TOLO (Train Operator Liason Officer) hi vis vests worn at incidents. They have been about since the early 90s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not advocating a return to hats, they wouldn't work in this day and age, but equally a shirt & tie does shout louder than something which looks like a sports polo shirt.

Much as the TOC was not to everyone's taste, the old red Virgin uniform jackets had the effect that you could easily pick out a member of staff on the platform. FirstGroup's hi-vis jackets also do that, but look much less presentable.

 

[bramling]

The rail industry already does this with the distinctive RIO (Rail Incident Officer), SIO (Station Incident Officer) and TOLO (Train Operator Liason Officer) hi vis vests worn at incidents. They have been about since the early 90s.

View attachment 104260

The trouble is, there will be people who don't have these. You can pretty much guarantee at the start of the incident no one will be wearing one. It's often said that the earliest part of an incident can have a big bearing on the outcome, as well as probably being the part where there's the highest risk of something going wrong.

 

[ComUtoR]

Identifying people fulfilling a certain role is a rather important function

This only really works if you know the colour code or specific uniform differences. I walk through stations all the time and people ask me random train questions. I'm in uniform but I have zero clue about stations and trains. especially on other TOCs.

Being able to identify who's who is very important at incidents, if nothing else saving time. Anyone who has ever been present at an incident where multiple emergency services turn up will know this.

But emergency staff are very easy to identify. I can clearly see the difference between a Copper and a Fireman. Other incident staff are often clearly identified because they are wearing high vis and typically high vis with their roles (TOLO etc) clearly identified.

TOC uniform identifies staff but generally that's all the public care about.

 

[newtownmgr]

In Germany drivers don't wear uniform and can wear what they like, that took a bit of getting used to, but I guess they are not customer facing.

DB have issued drivers uniforms since about 2005. Austrian railways used to issue polo shirts only at one time. Not sure whether the uniform was compulsory in Germany,but certainly the drivers working IC & ICE services were wearing uniform on my last few visits.

 

[bramling]

This only really works if you know the colour code or specific uniform differences. I walk through stations all the time and people ask me random train questions. I'm in uniform but I have zero clue about stations and trains. especially on other TOCs.

Take something like the previous London Underground uniform as an example.

On stations the supervisory staff would wear a white shirt, everyone else would wear a blue shirt.

The train driver could *normally* be identified by virtue of wearing a distinctive fleece (this did get blurred over time as others got hold of them, and eventually were officially able to be issued them!).

Duty managers would wear a darker jacket which identified them, and a centurion would (IIRC) wear a black jacket with their own tie.

Older uniforms could identify different grades due to the amount of bands on a hat, the type of badge worn, or bands of colour on a tie.

I can point to countless incidents where things have happened because a chain of miscommunication has occurred which originated in something coming from someone in a grade not qualified to be getting involved in something, despite having the best of intentions. Or, perhaps, someone taking too much notice of the "wrong" person. A good uniform should nip at least some of this in the bud.

Relying on wording on the back of a hi-vi doesn't cut it when there is a forest of hi-vi vests present, as is often the case!

 

[LOM]

The trouble is, there will be people who don't have these. You can pretty much guarantee at the start of the incident no one will be wearing one. It's often said that the earliest part of an incident can have a big bearing on the outcome, as well as probably being the part where there's the highest risk of something going wrong.

RIO SIO and TOLO are competencies which only a relative few incident response staff hold, they are issued with the vests and carry them with them whenever they are on shift or on call so it is immediately available. My RIO vest is in my work vehicle and it gets put on immediately as soon as I step out of the vehicle when I arrive at an incident, assuming I have been appointed RIO by Control.

The point I should have mentioned in my last post is that the emergency services and rail staff are trained to look for the RIO/SIO at an incident as it is them who is in charge for the rail industry. Hence why the vest goes on immediately. The multi-agency command structure at a railway incident involves the Fire Incident Commander, the Police Incident Commander, the Ambulance Operational Commander and Tactical Commander and the Rail Incident Officer, and they all have distinctive hi vis vests to make identification easy. Network Rail works to JESIP, the Joint Emergency Services Incident Principles, along with the other emergency services and response agencies.

Relying on wording on the back of a hi-vi doesn't cut it when there is a forest of hi-vi vests present, as is often the case!

The black and yellow diamonds are the distinctive bit. Believe me you cannot miss them.

 

[Neptune]

100% this!

The amount of times I’ve been stopped and asked questions by a customer is incredible. They don’t normally distinguish between a Driver or any other grade when they see a uniform. They just see you as a company employee and will engage.

I know many drivers who have a superiority complex and believe that customer service is beneath them. If you work for the company, you work for the company and regardless of grade you are an ambassador for that company.

 

[wobman]

100% this!

The amount of times I’ve been stopped and asked questions by a customer is incredible. They don’t normally distinguish between a Driver or any other grade when they see a uniform. They just see you as a company employee and will engage.

Maybe that's why the German drivers don't wear a uniform, they cab blend into the crowd easier. Sounds like a good idea to me

 

[bramling]

I know many drivers who have a superiority complex and believe that customer service is beneath them. If you work for the company, you work for the company and regardless of grade you are an ambassador for that company.

Two issues there:

1) The driver is unlikely to have the knowledge to be able to answer "customer service" type queries. Being an ambassador of the company doesn't really help with answering ticketing questions, for example.
2) More importantly, in many cases the driver doesn't have time to take queries, especially if changing ends on a tight turnround, or whilst trying to work their way through a train defect. One person's query doesn't take priority over the train departing on time.

None of this stops them politely referring someone elsewhere, but by the same token some people won't take no for an answer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Oct 2021 ==

RIO SIO and TOLO are competencies which only a relative few incident response staff hold, they are issued with the vests and carry them with them whenever they are on shift or on call so it is immediately available. My RIO vest is in my work vehicle and it gets put on immediately as soon as I step out of the vehicle when I arrive at an incident, assuming I have been appointed RIO by Control.

The point I should have mentioned in my last post is that the emergency services and rail staff are trained to look for the RIO/SIO at an incident as it is them who is in charge for the rail industry. Hence why the vest goes on immediately. The multi-agency command structure at a railway incident involves the Fire Incident Commander, the Police Incident Commander, the Ambulance Operational Commander and Tactical Commander and the Rail Incident Officer, and they all have distinctive hi vis vests to make identification easy. Network Rail works to JESIP, the Joint Emergency Services Incident Principles, along with the other emergency services and response agencies.

That's fine *if* there's a RIO present, which there will be during the latter stages for sure. However the likelihood is they won't arrive for potentially some time. The opening stages of an incident will probably be the driver on their own, driver and guard where applicable, or driver, guard and some station staff if lucky. It is at this stage where being able to quickly identify who's who is most vital.

 

[wobman]

Transport for Wales in black look like on-board security

TFW had white shirts but the drivers can't see the trains speed on sunny days, the reflection on the 158 ertms dmi screen is awful.
The decision was taken to go for black shirts for drivers as a result of that issue.

 

[Neptune]

Two issues there:

1) The driver is unlikely to have the knowledge to be able to answer "customer service" type queries. Being an ambassador of the company doesn't really help with answering ticketing questions, for example.
2) More importantly, in many cases the driver doesn't have time to take queries, especially if changing ends on a tight turnround, or whilst trying to work their way through a train defect.

None of this stops them politely referring someone elsewhere, but by the same token some people won't take no for an answer.

Not all queries are ticketing queries. A driver at a station isn’t always in a rush. It doesn’t stop some believing a simple platform query is beneath them.

 

[bramling]

Not all queries are ticketing queries. A driver at a station isn’t always in a rush. It doesn’t stop some believing a simple platform query is beneath them.

Don't disagree at all. That said, I can see why some drivers may get malaised, after the umpteenth time when someone expects the whole railway to pause simply so their issue can be dealt with.

 

[Neptune]

Don't disagree at all. That said, I can see why some drivers may get malaised, after the umpteenth time when someone expects the whole railway to pause simply so their issue can be dealt with.

Yes everybody on the frontline gets asked the same question repeatedly, more than drivers, it’s part of the job. We’re all well enough paid for it to put up with it.

 

[bramling]

Yes everybody on the frontline gets asked the same question repeatedly, more than drivers, it’s part of the job. We’re all well enough paid for it to put up with it.

Putting up with it is one thing, but drivers are also well enough paid to be able to judge when dealing with someone is going to delay the railway. That trumps anything bar a safety related issue.

And quite rightly so, as a user I wouldn't be impressed to hear "apologies the train left 5 minutes late, I was helping someone work out which train they needed".

 

[43066]

I know many drivers who have a superiority complex and believe that customer service is beneath them. If you work for the company, you work for the company and regardless of grade you are an ambassador for that company.

I detect an obvious undercurrent of resentment towards drivers here. Most drivers don’t answer questions simply because they often don’t know the answer, and because time is often very limited. Nothing to do with it being “beneath them”.

 

[D6130]

DB have issued drivers uniforms since about 2005. Austrian railways used to issue polo shirts only at one time. Not sure whether the uniform was compulsory in Germany,but certainly the drivers working IC & ICE services were wearing uniform on my last few visits.

Italian drivers - on both the FS and private/open access services - wear uniforms, but are no longer issued with caps. French drivers are not issued with uniforms, but can obtain an optional blue serge dust coat if working on older, dirtier diesel locos or units. French drivers, firemen and loco inspectors usually wear the traditional two-piece blue overalls, caps or berets and goggles, when working main line steam specials.

 

[baz962]

Identifying people fulfilling a certain role is a rather important function, however. To give an example in today's security conscious world, member of staff travels in a rear driving cab. If in a clearly identifiable uniform then any observer can be reasonably sure they're staff. If not in uniform, who knows who they are. Now officially the staff pass / lanyard is the ID not the uniform, however the fact remains that uniform is supposed to be controlled issue, so although someone determined *could* get access to uniform, the average Joe on the street can't. So straight away you're considerably reducing the risk of unauthorised people being able to gain unchallenged *casual* access to places they shouldn't.

Being able to identify who's who is very important at incidents, if nothing else saving time. Anyone who has ever been present at an incident where multiple emergency services turn up will know this.

It's worth adding that the much maligned hats did serve this purpose, as there was normally a distinguishing feature on the hat to identify grades. It's only as recently as the 1990s that these were a standard part of uniform for many grades of staff. As a member of railway staff there are times when you need to exert authority over people, this is something users consent to when they choose to travel by rail, and a decent uniform should make this easier.

I'm not advocating a return to hats, they wouldn't work in this day and age, but equally a shirt & tie does shout louder than something which looks like a sports polo shirt.

Problem is that you don't need an identical uniform . In the example you gave of travelling in a rear cab , would anyone see a tiny toc name . I have been stood right in front of people and they hadn't a clue. Even if you do have branding on , it could be obscured by bending or if the shirt or polo is too big. All you would really need , would be a same coloured cheap shirt or polo.

 

[Towers]

Problem is that you don't need an identical uniform . In the example you gave of travelling in a rear cab , would anyone see a tiny toc name . I have been stood right in front of people and they hadn't a clue. Even if you do have branding on , it could be obscured by bending or if the shirt or polo is too big. All you would really need , would be a same coloured cheap shirt or polo.

In the example of persons accessing non-public areas, the importance of being able to identify them is surely primarily a concern for staff, rather than the public. Staff will be able to tell, even if the branding is discreet.