Possibilities for frequent 'Metro' style services around Exeter/Plymouth

[REVUpminster]

This hasn't suddenly happened. It is part of the slow emergence of The Devon Metro that began over 10 years ago with opening of stations at Cranbrook and Newcourt. Doubling of the service between Paignton and Exeter. Marsh Barton to open next year. Edginswell 2023. Monkerton maybe. Cullompton and Wellington will depend on extending platform 2 at Exeter so that Taunton reversers can be extended to Exeter freeing up space at Taunton for the Devon Metro to reverse. Axminster will depend on some more loops on the Waterloo line.
Exeter for a city of it's size could have 11 stations. It is expanding faster than any other place in Devon. Newton Abbot and Torbay are other growth areas with thousands of houses being or have been built. I left out Plymouth as it is not part of the Devon Metro.

 

[DaveHarries]

I must admit that I am not holding my breath on the Tavistock line as I haven't heard anything on this for a few years. That is for a separate thread though I think.

Dave

 

[adrock1976]

View attachment 103950
This hasn't suddenly happened. It is part of the slow emergence of The Devon Metro that began over 10 years ago with opening of stations at Cranbrook and Newcourt. Doubling of the service between Paignton and Exeter. Marsh Barton to open next year. Edginswell 2023. Monkerton maybe. Cullompton and Wellington will depend on extending platform 2 at Exeter so that Taunton reversers can be extended to Exeter freeing up space at Taunton for the Devon Metro to reverse. Axminster will depend on some more loops on the Waterloo line.
Exeter for a city of it's size could have 11 stations. It is expanding faster than any other place in Devon. Newton Abbot and Torbay are other growth areas with thousands of houses being or have been built. I left out Plymouth as it is not part of the Devon Metro.

How is Plymouth not part of the Devon Metro?

When I was at primary school many years ago, I was taught that Plymouth is in the county of Devon, of which Exeter is the county town. Everywhere west of the Tamar is in Cornwall.

Did I have a rubbish geography teacher all those years ago?

 

[BayPaul]

How is Plymouth not part of the Devon Metro?

When I was at primary school many years ago, I was taught that Plymouth is in the county of Devon, of which Exeter is the county town. Everywhere west of the Tamar is in Cornwall.

Did I have a rubbish geography teacher all those years ago?

Currently it doesn't have an equivalent Metro service to the Exeter / Exmouth / Torbay area - it is mainly served by Intercity type trains, and doesn't have a decent network of suburban stations.
Technically, Plymouth is a Unitary Authority (like Torbay), so isn't within Devon County Council area, though it is within the ceremonial county of Devon.

In any case, a bit off topic really. Sorry Mods!

 

[adrock1976]

Currently it doesn't have an equivalent Metro service to the Exeter / Exmouth / Torbay area - it is mainly served by Intercity type trains, and doesn't have a decent network of suburban stations.
Technically, Plymouth is a Unitary Authority (like Torbay), so isn't within Devon County Council area, though it is within the ceremonial county of Devon.

In any case, a bit off topic really. Sorry Mods!

Many thanks.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Steering back to Okehampton, I would normally expect 'metro' to imply a frequent (say, at least every 15 minutes) network operating largely within an urban area. Describing the Exeter-Okehampton line as part of a 'metro' seems pretty - shall we say, optimistic- to me

 

[BayPaul]

Steering back to Okehampton, I would normally expect 'metro' to imply a frequent (say, at least every 15 minutes) network operating largely within an urban area. Describing the Exeter-Okehampton line as part of a 'metro' seems pretty - shall we say, optimistic- to me

I wouldn't disagree. Rural 'metros' tend towards every 30 minutes rather than 15, which isn't too ridiculous, so the Crediton - Exeter section of the Okehampton line will be able to reasonably be described as a metro (with onward services to Barnstaple and Okehampton), with 2tph once Okehampton goes hourly, so it isn't too optimistic.

 

[fgwrich]

Currently it doesn't have an equivalent Metro service to the Exeter / Exmouth / Torbay area - it is mainly served by Intercity type trains, and doesn't have a decent network of suburban stations.
Technically, Plymouth is a Unitary Authority (like Torbay), so isn't within Devon County Council area, though it is within the ceremonial county of Devon.

In any case, a bit off topic really. Sorry Mods!

Indeed, it's in a bit of an awkward position really - sitting at the end of the Cornwall "Metro" all stations services, and at the end of a branchlike (Bere Alston / Gunnislake) with predominantly Mainline Intercity services from the East. Unfortunately it wouldn't be as easy to plot out a Plymouth Metro type set up without new stations and services on the east side (something down to the Barbican / Friary or Tavy Junction perhaps). I can understand the Devon Metro tag for the Axminster / Exmouth / Paignton / Newton Abbot / Okehampton / Barnstaple services though - they may not be as high frequency as a London type metro, but they offer high capacity interlinked services across a large swathe of the eastern side of the county though.

 

[Irascible]

Not really sure what a Plymouth Metro would serve anyway - Ivybridge & Totnes? no-one further east is going to commute to Plymouth. Ivybridge & Totnes ( and Newton Abbott ) are served by everything already anyway.

Both Exeter and Plymouth have large aspirations. When I grew up in the area Exeter was just bumping 100k pop & there really wasn't much going on locally. Now it's growing as a commercial centre, coming up to what, 150k and the current target of the city council is 200k, presumably not including the fairly rapid growth in commuter towns down here. Exeter is convemiently in the middle of a lot of corridors, which unfortunately Plymouth lacks. The other thing is that the railways in Exeter are pretty well sited, unlike Plymouth.

 

[BayPaul]

Not really sure what a Plymouth Metro would serve anyway - Ivybridge & Totnes? no-one further east is going to commute to Plymouth. Ivybridge & Totnes ( and Newton Abbott ) are served by everything already anyway.

Both Exeter and Plymouth have large aspirations. When I grew up in the area Exeter was just bumping 100k pop & there really wasn't much going on locally. Now it's growing as a commercial centre, coming up to what, 150k and the current target of the city council is 200k, presumably not including the fairly rapid growth in commuter towns down here. Exeter is convemiently in the middle of a lot of corridors, which unfortunately Plymouth lacks. The other thing is that the railways in Exeter are pretty well sited, unlike Plymouth.

Indeed, it's in a bit of an awkward position really - sitting at the end of the Cornwall "Metro" all stations services, and at the end of a branchlike (Bere Alston / Gunnislake) with predominantly Mainline Intercity services from the East. Unfortunately it wouldn't be as easy to plot out a Plymouth Metro type set up without new stations and services on the east side (something down to the Barbican / Friary or Tavy Junction perhaps). I can understand the Devon Metro tag for the Axminster / Exmouth / Paignton / Newton Abbot / Okehampton / Barnstaple services though - they may not be as high frequency as a London type metro, but they offer high capacity interlinked services across a large swathe of the eastern side of the county though.

Not many trains serve Ivybridge - though the Cardiff - Penzance stoppers have given it a better service. Totnes and Newton Abbott are already well connected to Plymouth by the Intercity services. I think that Plympton would be a decent location for a station, as would somewhere around Mutley / Laira. The main issue with Plymouth is the location of the central station, which is a bit rubbish - just too far out of town to be able to really compete with busses. Sadly the other options, such as reopening Plymouth Friary, are really no better.

 

[Irascible]

Unfortunately it wouldn't be as easy to plot out a Plymouth Metro type set up without new stations and services on the east side (something down to the Barbican / Friary or Tavy Junction perhaps).

I did wonder if a new Friary station would help anything, given the approach to the old station is still there ( I presume! is there even any traffic to Cattedown anymore? ) - I don't know Plymouth much though. What seems to be needed are stations in the centre north, but there weren't any railways there in the first place.

 

[Grecian 1998]

When I was at primary school many years ago, I was taught that Plymouth is in the county of Devon, of which Exeter is the county town. Everywhere west of the Tamar is in Cornwall.

Exonians (certainly Exeter City fans anyway) will cheerfully tell you that you have been misinformed - Plymouth is in Cornwall. The rest of the country doesn't seem to agree though.

On the subject of the Tamar, there used to be parts of Devon west of the Tamar and parts of Cornwall east of the Tamar. The Victorians decided to tidy up most of them and the remaining oddities such as Werrington and North Petherwin were transferred in the 1960s.


Plympton and South Brent could be reopened as 'metro stations' for Plymouth although as always the questions raised are a) who is going to pay for them and b) where are you going to fit the services in so they don't hold up fast trains.

The stations to the west of Plymouth have an abysmal service for an urban area as they're pretty well exclusively served by 2-hourly Tamar Valley Line services, so there's clearly scope for improvement there, subject to the same points as above. Saltash might be a natural end point for western metro services, although the bridge is obviously a pinch point along with the short platforms at Saltash, plus there's the question of how you turn back trains at Saltash.

 

[Irascible]

On the subject of the Tamar, there used to be parts of Devon west of the Tamar and parts of Cornwall east of the Tamar. The Victorians decided to tidy up most of them and the remaining oddities such as Werrington and North Petherwin were transferred in the 1960s.

A bit OT, but if you go back further Devon & Cornwall ( and the very west bits of Somerset and a tiny bit of Dorset ) were all one place. From a transport provision view ( I'm attempting to avoid any politics ) that's actually a pretty good area to consider a region despite the current borders.

Not terribly helpful for just looking at Plymouth though, no.

 

[WesternBiker]

Plympton and South Brent could be reopened as 'metro stations' for Plymouth although as always the questions raised are a) who is going to pay for them and b) where are you going to fit the services in so they don't hold up fast trains.

The stations to the west of Plymouth have an abysmal service for an urban area as they're pretty well exclusively served by 2-hourly Tamar Valley Line services, so there's clearly scope for improvement there, subject to the same points as above. Saltash might be a natural end point for western metro services, although the bridge is obviously a pinch point along with the short platforms at Saltash, plus there's the question of how you turn back trains at Saltash.

In the good old (GWR) days - and before the opening of the Tamar Road bridge - Saltash had something like 28 return services a day to Plymouth, some extended to Plympton. Of course, besides the speed and convenience compared with the ferry, there was a lot of employment in the dockyards along the route. But clearly, they used to be able to turn trains around at Saltash. (I presume they were operated by a motor-rail car, but others may know.) It always feels like there ought to be the demand there for a better service, but how competitive it would be compared with buses, I don't know.

The SR also had the Turnchapel branch from Friary, but that was an early closure (1951) to passengers.

 

[Irascible]

Looking at the map - and remembering I don't really know the place - what Plymouth looks like it could do with is a tram from Plymstock through Friary ( there seem to be a few gaps from the original rail corridors that might ease matters ) and then somehow making it's way towards the hospital in the north via the central rail station. Actually maybe someone was on the right lines in the other thread about converting Gunnislake to light rail, if you could reroute it in through the north instead of skirting it's way in around the west.

Liskeard is a bit too far to turn back cross-Plymouth locals, I suppose? I'm not sure about turning back at Ivybridge either, but Ivybridge really needs picking up & moving somewhere useful anyway.

Exeter could probably do with something tram-like too ( even if it's just more dedicated bus lanes ), but mostly because of congestion reasons rather than lack of coverage.

 

[REVUpminster]

Looking at the map - and remembering I don't really know the place - what Plymouth looks like it could do with is a tram from Plymstock through Friary ( there seem to be a few gaps from the original rail corridors that might ease matters ) and then somehow making it's way towards the hospital in the north via the central rail station. Actually maybe someone was on the right lines in the other thread about converting Gunnislake to light rail, if you could reroute it in through the north instead of skirting it's way in around the west.

Liskeard is a bit too far to turn back cross-Plymouth locals, I suppose? I'm not sure about turning back at Ivybridge either, but Ivybridge really needs picking up & moving somewhere useful anyway.

Exeter could probably do with something tram-like too ( even if it's just more dedicated bus lanes ), but mostly because of congestion reasons rather than lack of coverage.

Plymouth would be ideal for a tram starting at Derriford Hospital, past Plymouth Argylr through the park to the station, then straight down the middle of the shopping parade to Royal Parade. could split here left and right to other parts of the city.

 

[Chester1]

The line needs Okehampton Parkway to be a success. It won't be much of a rail head without it. Best to get the line open first than wait for the extra funding required.

 

[stuu]

Looking at the map - and remembering I don't really know the place - what Plymouth looks like it could do with is a tram from Plymstock through Friary ( there seem to be a few gaps from the original rail corridors that might ease matters ) and then somehow making it's way towards the hospital in the north via the central rail station. Actually maybe someone was on the right lines in the other thread about converting Gunnislake to light rail, if you could reroute it in through the north instead of skirting it's way in around the west.

Liskeard is a bit too far to turn back cross-Plymouth locals, I suppose? I'm not sure about turning back at Ivybridge either, but Ivybridge really needs picking up & moving somewhere useful anyway.

Exeter could probably do with something tram-like too ( even if it's just more dedicated bus lanes ), but mostly because of congestion reasons rather than lack of coverage.

Plymouth could easily fit a tram line north-south, roughly along the A386. The railway is very poorly placed to serve most of the city, it's very similar to Bristol in that sense

Exeter is the complete opposite, with railways broadly where the population is and a very well located station in the middle. Which goes some way to explain why it has so many stations compared to it's population

 

[Irascible]

Exeter is the complete opposite, with railways broadly where the population is and a very well located station in the middle. Which goes some way to explain why it has so many stations compared to it's population

Exeter's main problem is just not enough infrastructure - signalling constraints, track constraints, roads clogged so much that if you get a bus from a park & ride it's not any quicker - just banning cars from a lot more areas ( or at least arteries ) would probably make life much easier provided there's other means of getting into the place. It's easy to go *around* Exeter.

The Portishead Railway Group site is actually a quite useful reference for how the reopening process can take so long & how much it actually costs, they do well to show these things simply.

 

[paul1609]

The line needs Okehampton Parkway to be a success. It won't be much of a rail head without it. Best to get the line open first than wait for the extra funding required.

I can't really see how Okehampton Parkway is going to be any more successful than Ivybridge Parkway. Are drivers really going to turn off the A30 dual carriageway for an indirect rail service that mostly stops short of Exeter City. For long distance travel why not continue another 45 mins to Tiverton Parkway?

 

[REVUpminster]

I can't really see how Okehampton Parkway is going to be any more successful than Ivybridge Parkway. Are drivers really going to turn off the A30 dual carriageway for an indirect rail service that mostly stops short of Exeter City. For long distance travel why not continue another 45 mins to Tiverton Parkway?

Okehampton Parkway isn't meant for intercity travellers but for commuters to Exeter as that city becomes more car unfriendly. Population of Exeter has gone up 14,000 in 10 years compared with Plymouth's just over 5000.
The Parkway station is meant to be funded by developers of the industrial and residential land around the station site.

 

[Irascible]

I can't really see how Okehampton Parkway is going to be any more successful than Ivybridge Parkway. Are drivers really going to turn off the A30 dual carriageway for an indirect rail service that mostly stops short of Exeter City. For long distance travel why not continue another 45 mins to Tiverton Parkway?

St. Davids isn't *that* far out, it's just that it's a hill. If you live in London & use a train you'll likely walk further every day.

 

[WesternBiker]

St. Davids isn't *that* far out, it's just that it's a hill. If you live in London & use a train you'll likely walk further every day.

And, if some trains continue to Exeter Central (or there are decent connections) then that is really, er, Central!

 

[AlastairFraser]

I did wonder if a new Friary station would help anything, given the approach to the old station is still there ( I presume! is there even any traffic to Cattedown anymore? ) - I don't know Plymouth much though. What seems to be needed are stations in the centre north, but there weren't any railways there in the first place.

A better solution would be an interchange station onto the main line at Plympton with a tram train route from there to Marsh Mills- Laira- Prince Rock -Friary - on street through the city centre- Barbican-Stonehouse-Millbay-Devonport and then take over the Gunnislake/Tavistock lines from there. It would serve a large chunk of the eastern end of the city and Plympton, the city centre and resolve the rubbish service for Western Plymouth/the Tamar Valley (including a direct service to a Tavistock parkway station). Most of the rail bits are still there.

 

[Irascible]

A better solution would be an interchange station onto the main line at Plympton with a tram train route from there to Marsh Mills- Laira- Prince Rock -Friary - on street through the city centre- Barbican-Stonehouse-Millbay-Devonport and then take over the Gunnislake/Tavistock lines from there. It would serve a large chunk of the eastern end of the city and Plympton, the city centre and resolve the rubbish service for Western Plymouth/the Tamar Valley (including a direct service to a Tavistock parkway station). Most of the rail bits are still there.

If you're going to go to LR for Gunnislake/Tavistock then it seems to make sense to divert it into the city from the north, say via Tamerton Foliot or the West Park area & meet up with your other route somewhere in the centre, with a branch up towards Roborough via the hospital ( and the airport, if they decide to reopen it ). You can turn the Devonport area services around at Saltash if there's enough slots on the bridge, anyway. Or, well, the road bridge has seperate lanes for local traffic but no idea if you could put a tram on that bridge.

 

[BayPaul]

If you're going to go to LR for Gunnislake/Tavistock then it seems to make sense to divert it into the city from the north, say via Tamerton Foliot or the West Park area & meet up with your other route somewhere in the centre, with a branch up towards Roborough via the hospital ( and the airport, if they decide to reopen it ). You can turn the Devonport area services around at Saltash if there's enough slots on the bridge, anyway. Or, well, the road bridge has seperate lanes for local traffic but no idea if you could put a tram on that bridge.

Given the poor state of the road bridge, and the weird kinks on the local lane around the bridge pillars (the local lane is eastbound only, the other side is normally a cycle path) I don't think that running trams across the bridge would work. But it would be simple enough to turn a local train (or tram train) at St Budeaux anyway, with extensions to Saltash as capacity over the bridge allows. I like all these tram options, and agree they have far more potential than heavy rail for creating a metro in Plymouth. A tram-train route Ivybridge - Plympton - Barbican - City Centre - Central Station - St Budeaux - Tavistock /Saltash /Gunnislake and a pure tram route Plymstock - Barbican - City Centre - Central Station - Derriford would cover much of the city, and would resolve the issue of the location of the main station.

 

[paul1609]

Okehampton Parkway isn't meant for intercity travellers but for commuters to Exeter as that city becomes more car unfriendly. Population of Exeter has gone up 14,000 in 10 years compared with Plymouth's just over 5000.
The Parkway station is meant to be funded by developers of the industrial and residential land around the station site.

The problem with that is 30 mins further along the A30 is the Matfield Park and Ride with frequent buses to the very heart of the city and the added bonus that you can visit the out of town facilities at Marsh Barton.
An indirect infrequent train service that dumps you at the bottom of a hill 1/2 from the city centre isn't going to compete with that.

 

[Irascible]

The problem with that is 30 mins further along the A30 is the Matfield Park and Ride with frequent buses to the very heart of the city and the added bonus that you can visit the out of town facilities at Marsh Barton.
An indirect infrequent train service that dumps you at the bottom of a hill 1/2 from the city centre isn't going to compete with that.

Assuming the buses from the P&R can get into the city rather than into a traffic jam... that's quite a long way from the centre, how long is the advertised bus journey? also that's literally the other side of the city from Okehampton...

 

[30907]

The problem with that is 30 mins further along the A30 is the Matfield Park and Ride with frequent buses to the very heart of the city and the added bonus that you can visit the out of town facilities at Marsh Barton.
An indirect infrequent train service that dumps you at the bottom of a hill 1/2 from the city centre isn't going to compete with that.

Hourly direct from Dec 2022 is planned - and I doubt the Parkway will be open by then

 

[AlastairFraser]

If you're going to go to LR for Gunnislake/Tavistock then it seems to make sense to divert it into the city from the north, say via Tamerton Foliot or the West Park area & meet up with your other route somewhere in the centre, with a branch up towards Roborough via the hospital ( and the airport, if they decide to reopen it ). You can turn the Devonport area services around at Saltash if there's enough slots on the bridge, anyway. Or, well, the road bridge has seperate lanes for local traffic but no idea if you could put a tram on that bridge.

That makes sense, although you'd want it to be tram train beyond Tamerton Foliot, in case you wanted to reopen Tavistock to Okehampton for regional services. The remnant to St Budeaux could carry on over the road bridge if repaired and modified, share the mainline through Saltash to a bridge over the Lynher, then curve round to Torpoint, which seems to be rather cut off.