ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[maradona10]

The proposal has vague terms in it that aren't clear to members. On a personal level I hate being spare in a bothy, time drags and it's the same conversation with staff booking off or on all day. Don't really fancy freezing my bollocks off on a barrier for 9 hours either with a minimal PnB (commission would be a bonus however)

We wait and we wait....

 

[LoogaBarooga]

So will that then mean once these guards have been stood on the gateline for 3 hours(because they haven’t picked up work) then for sickness or whatever reason they are required to work a train, but they say no they are having there pnb that the train gets cancelled?

That's exactly what I was thinking. Not quite sure how they can make this workable with pnbs.

 

[320320]

So will that then mean once these guards have been stood on the gateline for 3 hours(because they haven’t picked up work) then for sickness or whatever reason they are required to work a train, but they say no they are having there pnb that the train gets cancelled?

No, pnb times are based on turn length so stay the same regardless of whether they’re working a train, on the barrier or sitting in the bothy.

In short no, which will be a major sticking point.

Considering that the industrial action was triggered by the removal of the RDW enhancement it’s difficult to see why they think this will be acceptable. Maybe they think there’s enough staff that only work their Sunday and don’t work rest days to push it through.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==

That's exactly what I was thinking. Not quite sure how they can make this workable with pnbs.

PnBs are based on turn length not turn content so regardless of whether you sit spare or get sent to a barrier the PnB will be at the same time. If a train needs covered at some point in the day it has to fit around the booked PnB time so whether you’re in the bothy or on a barrier makes no difference to whether the train can be covered.

 

[DorkingMain]

The proposal has vague terms in it that aren't clear to members. On a personal level I hate being spare in a bothy, time drags and it's the same conversation with staff booking off or on all day. Don't really fancy freezing my bollocks off on a barrier for 9 hours either with a minimal PnB (commission would be a bonus however)

We wait and we wait....

I would check you're actually getting the commission on it before you agree to it on that basis. When I was a guard our TOC refused to pay commission when we were asked to do "queue-busting", saying our contracts only said "commission on on-train ticket sales".

 

[LoogaBarooga]

No, pnb times are based on turn length so stay the same regardless of whether they’re working a train, on the barrier or sitting in the bothy.



Considering that the industrial action was triggered by the removal of the RDW enhancement it’s difficult to see why they think this will be acceptable. Maybe they think there’s enough staff that only work their Sunday and don’t work rest days to push it through.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==



PnBs are based on turn length not turn content so regardless of whether you sit spare or get sent to a barrier the PnB will be at the same time. If a train needs covered at some point in the day it has to fit around the booked PnB time so whether you’re in the bothy or on a barrier makes no difference to whether the train can be covered.

So they are going to end up running the risk of having trains cancelled for the sake of having an extra body on the barriers.

Of course it makes a difference to weather a train can be covered. If someone has just done four hours on the barriers then they need to work a train because someone else is delayed it's not going to happen.

 

[Devon Sunset]

No, pnb times are based on turn length so stay the same regardless of whether they’re working a train, on the barrier or sitting in the bothy.



Considering that the industrial action was triggered by the removal of the RDW enhancement it’s difficult to see why they think this will be acceptable. Maybe they think there’s enough staff that only work their Sunday and don’t work rest days to push it through.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==



PnBs are based on turn length not turn content so regardless of whether you sit spare or get sent to a barrier the PnB will be at the same time. If a train needs covered at some point in the day it has to fit around the booked PnB time so whether you’re in the bothy or on a barrier makes no difference to whether the train can be covered.

Exactly. I don't think this will fly with the Guards or Te's who have been involved in industrial action for this explicit reason.

 

[320320]

So they are going to end up running the risk of having trains cancelled for the sake of having an extra body on the barriers.

Of course it makes a difference to weather a train can be covered. If someone has just done four hours on the barriers then they need to work a train because someone else is delayed it's not going to happen.

That’s not how it works. PnBs are based on turn length, so whether you’ve done 4 hours on the barriers, on a train or in the bothy makes no difference whatsoever to whether you can cover someone who has been delayed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==

Exactly. I don't think this will fly with the Guards or Te's who have been involved in industrial action for this explicit reason.

I think the biggest issue they’ve got now will be the amount of staff that don’t work rest days anyway and are happy with the increase and the probable large number who’ll be under pressure from their families because of Christmas coming up and the amount of money they’ve lost up until this point. I can see this vote being a lot closer than the previous ones.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Aye I understand how pnbs work. What if the train you are needed to work takes you over the pnb window for that turn length? It gets cancelled. That wouldn't happen if you were sat spare in the bothy.

 

[LowLevel]

Aye I understand how pnbs work. What if the train you are needed to work takes you over the pnb window for that turn length? It gets cancelled. That wouldn't happen if you were sat spare in the bothy.

We've always had a gentleman's agreement at work whereby if you're in the mess room spare you're free to work the train on the basis you've been sat on your backside, unless you've given them the tip that you're taking 30 minutes out or whatever the time is to go and get some food which is fair enough. PNBs have parameters but a fixed time isn't generally attached to spare turns, formally I think it's meant to be "as agreed with resources" I guess!

We used to have some workshy twits that would sit for 5 hours drinking tea then get asked to work a train and declare that they were on their PNB - it doesn't take long for you to work out who they are and make sure the favour is returned

 

[snookertam]

Aye I understand how pnbs work. What if the train you are needed to work takes you over the pnb window for that turn length? It gets cancelled. That wouldn't happen if you were sat spare in the bothy.

Yes it would.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Yes it would.

Explain please.

 

[LowLevel]

Yes it would.

Really? You'd sit in the mess room for hours then declare "I'm not doing that, I want a PNB?".

 

[320320]

Aye I understand how pnbs work. What if the train you are needed to work takes you over the pnb window for that turn length? It gets cancelled. That wouldn't happen if you were sat spare in the bothy.

You’re talking about disregarding official PnB times as long as you’re allowed to sit spare rather than work a barrier.

That’s understanding how PnBs work to get up the road early Hardly an argument for avoiding efficient utilisation of spare staff.

 

[maradona10]

I would check you're actually getting the commission on it before you agree to it on that basis. When I was a guard our TOC refused to pay commission when we were asked to do "queue-busting", saying our contracts only said "commission on on-train ticket sales".

I wouldn’t agree to it personally based on what’s been detailed but you make an excellent point

 

[320320]

We've always had a gentleman's agreement at work whereby if you're in the mess room spare you're free to work the train on the basis you've been sat on your backside, unless you've given them the tip that you're taking 30 minutes out or whatever the time is to go and get some food which is fair enough. PNBs have parameters but a fixed time isn't generally attached to spare turns, formally I think it's meant to be "as agreed with resources" I guess!

We used to have some workshy twits that would sit for 5 hours drinking tea then get asked to work a train and declare that they were on their PNB - it doesn't take long for you to work out who they are and make sure the favour is returned

Where does that gentlemans agreement stand a guard if they makes a mistake on a train they’re covering when, officially, they shouldn’t have been working it due to the PnB not fitting?

As a driver, it’s one of the first questions you’re asked after an incident and if they can pin the blame on a missed PnB they will.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

You’re talking about disregarding official PnB times as long as you’re allowed to sit spare rather than work a barrier.

That’s understanding how PnBs work to get up the road early Hardly an argument for avoiding efficient utilisation of spare staff.

No I'm not. If I've sat spare for 4 hours then I'm asked to work a train how could I argue if the TCS says I've already had my pnb? If I've just worked 4 hours on the barrier it's a totally different story.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==

By that logic the TCS should have been allocating me a pnb at the start of every spare turn I've had. There must have been loads of trains I could have refused to work!

 

[LowLevel]

Where does that gentlemans agreement stand a guard if they makes a mistake on a train they’re covering when, officially, they shouldn’t have been working it due to the PnB not fitting?

As a driver, it’s one of the first questions you’re asked after an incident and if they can pin the blame on a missed PnB they will.

"I've been sat in the mess room for the last 5 hours drinking tea, have had ample time to see to my personal needs and am well rested. I dropped a clanger because "insert reason", in my opinion."

Please note that I'm not suggesting working outside the norms of the rostering agreement just because you happen to be spare, IE after 2 hours picking up 7+ hours work without a break and just getting on with it, I'm referring to the nasty habit of some folks of sitting around for 6 hours and then playing merry hell because "they're due a PNB" because someone asks them to do 2.5 hours work.

 

[320320]

No I'm not. If I've sat spare for 4 hours then I'm asked to work a train how could I argue if the TCS says I've already had my pnb? If I've just worked 4 hours on the barrier it's a totally different story.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==

By that logic the TCS should have been allocating me a pnb at the start of every spare turn I've had. There must have been loads of trains I could have refused to work!

What are the PnB times for guards or TEs? Drivers PnB times are anything up to 9 hours you’re due a 30 minute PnB between the 3rd and 5th hours. 9.01 hours to 10 hours you’re due a 40 minute PnB to be taken between the 4th and 6th hours.

PnBs are based on set parameters due to turn length, not when the TCS decide you’ve to work an uncovered train.

 

[43066]

Where does that gentlemans agreement stand a guard if they makes a mistake on a train they’re covering when, officially, they shouldn’t have been working it due to the PnB not fitting?

As a driver, it’s one of the first questions you’re asked after an incident and if they can pin the blame on a missed PnB they will.

I think the point is when you sit spare there is no set PNB because you aren’t doing anything until such time as you’re asked to go and work a train. If you’ve been asked to spend a few hours manning a ticket barrier you would need an agreed PNB before being asked to work a train or else: “I’m too fatigued to do so safely”.

I can’t see why the TOC is asking for this: all it would achieve is spare guards being unable to be used for their core duties due to spending time doing tasks in the remit of other (less well paid) staff.

If it’s anything like where I am it will be quite rare for guards to sit spare. Yes there’s the occasional weekend where there’s engineering work and jobs end up cancelled, but those are few and far between and generally very few passengers anyway!

 

[LoogaBarooga]

I don't disagree. They are based on turn length and slotted into appropriate times within the diagram. That's precisely why it will be difficult to put guards on the barriers for undetermined periods of time in their spare turns.

The only alternative would be to actually roster guards for shifts on the barriers but then you have no cover for disruption.

 

[John Bishop]

I don't disagree. They are based on turn length and slotted into appropriate times within the diagram. That's precisely why it will be difficult to put guards on the barriers for undetermined periods of time in their spare turns.

The only alternative would be to actually roster guards for shifts on the barriers but then you have no cover for disruption.

Which is not the fault of the guards. That’s a company issue to deal with if that’s the road they want to go down. I don’t see it as a reason to reject the offer.

 

[LowLevel]

Which is not the fault of the guards. That’s a company issue to deal with if that’s the road they want to go down. I don’t see it as a reason to reject the offer.

It is however important to tie up details if you're accepting an offer.

 

[Class83]

I don't disagree. They are based on turn length and slotted into appropriate times within the diagram. That's precisely why it will be difficult to put guards on the barriers for undetermined periods of time in their spare turns.

The only alternative would be to actually roster guards for shifts on the barriers but then you have no cover for disruption.

Would something like, up to 90 minutes on the barriers to deal with queues, then 30 mins drinking tea, so they are available with at least a couple of hours before a break is required if needed to work a train. It doesn't seem unreasonable to do some other duties while being paid to be spare, provided they won't prevent the conductor operating a train when required.

 

[John Bishop]

It is however important to tie up details if you're accepting an offer.

Agreed.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Would something like, up to 90 minutes on the barriers to deal with queues, then 30 mins drinking tea, so they are available with at least a couple of hours before a break is required if needed to work a train. It doesn't seem unreasonable to do some other duties while being paid to be spare, provided they won't prevent the conductor operating a train when required.

Yeah I agree it's definitely not unreasonable at all. My point is there will have to be some sort of clear agreement, the rules around pnbs definitely make it more difficult.

 

[snookertam]

Really? You'd sit in the mess room for hours then declare "I'm not doing that, I want a PNB?".

Im not stating what I would or wouldn’t do, but I can see the argument for doing exactly that. And I’ve seen it happen on numerous occasions.

Being on a PnB means nobody can disturb you for that 30-40 mins and you can switch off from work completely, or as much as reasonably possible. Outside of those times there’s always a chance of being asked to do work and an expectation of being prepared for it. Under those circumstances, I can understand why traincrew would stick rigidly to PnB times when doing safety critical work.

A traincrew supervisor should be on top of that anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==

Which is not the fault of the guards. That’s a company issue to deal with if that’s the road they want to go down. I don’t see it as a reason to reject the offer.

Yea, if it gets put in as rostered work. From what I understand part of the deal here is that guards ‘fill in’ which doesn’t imply that it’s being made part of the diagram.

Traincrew are either spare, or have diagrammed work. It can’t be both.

 

[320320]

I don't disagree. They are based on turn length and slotted into appropriate times within the diagram. That's precisely why it will be difficult to put guards on the barriers for undetermined periods of time in their spare turns.

The only alternative would be to actually roster guards for shifts on the barriers but then you have no cover for disruption.

You’re trying to make it unnecessarily complicated when there’s nothing difficult about it.

The same thing happens to spare drivers when they’re told to cover the yard because a depot drivers went sick or is running late. If mainline work comes up and is compatible with their PnB time then they cover it regardless of whether they’ve been shunting in the yard or watching homes under the hammer.

ETA, Aslef EC have accepted the driver pay offer from ScotRail and sanctioned a 12 month extension of the RDW agreement on the current term of £375 subject to 3 monthly reviews.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

I'm not complicating anything, we're essentially agreeing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==

You've got to laugh. Drivers get their rdw enhancement extended and lowered to a 3 hour swing on spare turns.

Guards get rewarded with no enhancement and extra duties

 

[320320]

I'm not complicating anything, we're essentially agreeing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2021 ==

You've got to laugh. Drivers get their rdw enhancement extended and lowered to a 3 hour swing on spare turns.

Guards get rewarded with no enhancement and extra duties

I agree with you completely on the RDW enhancement, it’s disgraceful that it’s paid to one grade and not the other and hopefully it’s sorted soon.
I just hope you’re not undermined by your own colleagues voting for it because they don’t do any RDW.

 

[Dansomedan]

14th October 2021



Dear Colleague,



RATES OF PAY & CONDITIONS OF SERVICE 2021 - ABELLIO SCOTRAIL



I write to advise you that the ballots have now closed, and the result are as follows: -



Are you prepared to take strike action?



Number of individuals who were entitled to vote in the ballot: 2415

Number of votes cast in the ballot: 1374

Number of individuals answering “Yes” to the question: 1159

Number of individuals answering “No” to the question: 213

Number of spoiled or otherwise invalid voting papers returned: 2



Are you prepared to take industrial action short of a strike?



Number of individuals who were entitled to vote in the ballot: 2415

Number of votes cast in the ballot: 1374

Number of individuals answering “Yes” to the question: 1282

Number of individuals answering “No” to the question: 92

Number of spoiled or otherwise invalid voting papers returned: 0



The National Executive Committee is considering the result and I will keep you advised of further developments.

Yours sincerely,

Michael Lynch
General Secretary