Opportunities to improve service provision through/to Castleford

[northernchris]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/huddersfield-wakefield-castleford.223256/

I used this service a lot in early 2020 and had noticed a steady increase in passenger numbers since the extension to Castleford. It would be really useful if it could either be restored on a 2 hourly basis throughout the day, or run hourly between Huddersfield and Wakefield Kirkgate as this would only require the 1 unit. Or link it up with the Huddersfield - Bradford service as an hourly Bradford - Castleford which would still require 1 less unit (and crew) than the pre-Covid timetable

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I used this service a lot in early 2020 and had noticed a steady increase in passenger numbers since the extension to Castleford. It would be really useful if it could either be restored on a 2 hourly basis throughout the day, or run hourly between Huddersfield and Wakefield Kirkgate as this would only require the 1 unit. Or link it up with the Huddersfield - Bradford service as an hourly Bradford - Castleford which would still require 1 less unit (and crew) than the pre-Covid timetable

The equivalent services were linked either side of Huddersfield around a decade ago (aka "The Grand Tour"). In theory this would save a unit, though I'm not sure the paths line up as conveniently these days.

One change I would like to see would be the Northern Bradford service and the TPE Leeds stopper switching platforms, to stop the ASDO system on the 185s from throwing a hissy-fit in platform six.

 

[Ianno87]

Wasn't there a plan (I might have imagined or dreamed it) to extend the Manchester-Huddersfield TPE "stoppers" to Wakefield/Castleford? But Covid got in the way.

Capacity issues through Mirfield aside, provision of a direct Manchester service (with decent quality trains) from these towns might actually make the Wakefield-Huddersfield section of route do something other than move fresh air around.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Wasn't there a plan (I might have imagined or dreamed it) to extend the Manchester-Huddersfield TPE "stoppers" to Wakefield/Castleford? But Covid got in the way.

Capacity issues through Mirfield aside, provision of a direct Manchester service (with decent quality trains) from these towns might actually make the Wakefield-Huddersfield section of route do something other than move fresh air around.

I mentioned in the other thread that the "fresh air" accusation is overstated, and post #1 in this thread also backs that up. As ever, it's frustrating that a 2-car unit that's 20-30% full in the North is ripe for the axe, but an 8-car unit with the same load factor in Surrey can just carry on regardless without even a suggestion of cutting it back to 4-car.
I think the TPE thing was at least in part a way of freeing up space at Huddersfield, with Wakefield gaining a Manchester train just an added bonus. That said, the old RRNW Wakefield services did quite well despite being both slow and usually a 142, so there's definitely potential there.

 

[northernchris]

Wasn't there a plan (I might have imagined or dreamed it) to extend the Manchester-Huddersfield TPE "stoppers" to Wakefield/Castleford? But Covid got in the way.

Capacity issues through Mirfield aside, provision of a direct Manchester service (with decent quality trains) from these towns might actually make the Wakefield-Huddersfield section of route do something other than move fresh air around.

I'd forgotten about that! In the absence of a Northern service, extending the Piccadilly - Huddersfield across to Wakefield would be useful.

The equivalent services were linked either side of Huddersfield around a decade ago (aka "The Grand Tour"). In theory this would save a unit, though I'm not sure the paths line up as conveniently these days.

One change I would like to see would be the Northern Bradford service and the TPE Leeds stopper switching platforms, to stop the ASDO system on the 185s from throwing a hissy-fit in platform six.

Yes, the pathing would be an issue especially around Bradley Junction. The paths line up fairly well though heading towards Bradford, with the arrival in Huddersfield from Castleford being at 35 with the Bradford departure also being at 35, so it may be workable if there's some wiggle room

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The paths will be easier to jiggle post-upgrade, as the 4-tracking will mean not having to fit between the fasts. As far as linking the Bradford and Castleford services, it's really only worth doing if it both saves a unit; and can be done without too much risk. With the reversal you want at least 10 minutes between arrival and departure, and moving both services by five minutes might cause problems elsewhere.

If there's a way to link them reliably, I'd probably still keep them as separate services publicly, because the old Grand Tour used to confuse people and there was very little through traffic either side of Huddersfield other than enthusiasts.

 

[Starmill]

Wasn't there a plan (I might have imagined or dreamed it) to extend the Manchester-Huddersfield TPE "stoppers" to Wakefield/Castleford? But Covid got in the way.

Capacity issues through Mirfield aside, provision of a direct Manchester service (with decent quality trains) from these towns might actually make the Wakefield-Huddersfield section of route do something other than move fresh air around.

They were indeed uploaded and put on sale in March 2020 from the May 2020 change date. Of course they weren't introduced.

 

[HST43257]

How about an all stopper York to Manchester via Castleford and Huddersfield?

 

[tbtc]

run hourly between Huddersfield and Wakefield Kirkgate as this would only require the 1 unit

I could be wrong (often am!), but I thought that one reason for the extension to Castleford was that one unit wasn't able to cope with an hourly Huddersfield - Kirkgate shuttle (given the turnaround times, the paths not matching up perfectly, the slow alignments) - so they decided that if they needed to use a second unit then they might as well extend it through to Castleford rather than sitting clogging up a platform at Wakefield?

As ever, it's frustrating that a 2-car unit that's 20-30% full in the North is ripe for the axe, but an 8-car unit with the same load factor in Surrey can just carry on regardless without even a suggestion of cutting it back to 4-car

An eight coach EMU that's 20-30% full may still be cheaper to operate than a two coach DMU that's 20-30% full, given that the "Surrey" service may be operated on a DOO basis, and the EMUs are more efficient than DMUs (so not only lower fuel costs but also better track access charges)

However, the hypothetical EMU in your example will presumably be full and standing at least a couple of times a day, when providing a service into/ out of central London at peak times (and therefore needs to be eight coaches long at that time - and dumping four coaches somewhere else for part of the day would create shunting moves that are more complicated than just keeping it eight coaches long all day) - whereas a DMU shuttling between Huddersfield and Wakefield isn't going to have the same "peak"

I've lived in Yorkshire for most of my life but I don't think that complaining about Surrey helps the case for the fact that DMUs between Huddersfield and Wakefield have been fairly lightly loaded since I can remember

How about an all stopper York to Manchester via Castleford and Huddersfield?

What would that solve though?

There's (assuming we go back to pre-Covid timetables etc) four per hour from York - Huddersfield - Manchester - a stopper via Castleford is going be overtaken by at least a couple of these - and already an hourly service from York - Wakefield

If there's a way to link them reliably, I'd probably still keep them as separate services publicly, because the old Grand Tour used to confuse people and there was very little through traffic either side of Huddersfield other than enthusiasts.

I agree about the passenger numbers - but I think that the reason that the Grand Tour confused people was that it was (at least sometimes) advertised as a Selby - Wakefield service, so people at Leeds assumed it was a reasonable way to get to Huddersfield/ Wakefield.

Now that the Bradford - Huddersfield service is separate to the Leeds bits, I think that'd be less of an issue

 

[YorksLad12]

To quote the sperm whale in The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy: "Oh no, not again."

But to answer the question: do the extension of the TPE stopper from Huddersfield to Wakefield as originally planned, taking over from the Northern service. Put the additional stops at Normanton and Castleford that will have been pulled as a result onto the revised Hallam Line services (see threads passim). It might even save Northern a couple of units to use elsewhere...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

An eight coach EMU that's 20-30% full may still be cheaper to operate than a two coach DMU that's 20-30% full, given that the "Surrey" service may be operated on a DOO basis, and the EMUs are more efficient than DMUs (so not only lower fuel costs but also better track access charges)

However, the hypothetical EMU in your example will presumably be full and standing at least a couple of times a day, when providing a service into/ out of central London at peak times (and therefore needs to be eight coaches long at that time - and dumping four coaches somewhere else for part of the day would create shunting moves that are more complicated than just keeping it eight coaches long all day) - whereas a DMU shuttling between Huddersfield and Wakefield isn't going to have the same "peak"

I've lived in Yorkshire for most of my life but I don't think that complaining about Surrey helps the case for the fact that DMUs between Huddersfield and Wakefield have been fairly lightly loaded since I can remember

I was thinking of services like Hampton Court and Chessington, which are guard operated (for now) but largely carry fresh air outwith the peaks. Though my point was simply that in Yorkshire we have to beg for 2-car scraps despite the demand on the route in question being less peak-oriented than the Surrey examples thanks to the school and college traffic. It simply isn't a level playing-field and it should be.

To quote the sperm whale in The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy: "Oh no, not again."

But to answer the question: do the extension of the TPE stopper from Huddersfield to Wakefield as originally planned, taking over from the Northern service. Put the additional stops at Normanton and Castleford that will have been pulled as a result onto the revised Hallam Line services (see threads passim). It might even save Northern a couple of units to use elsewhere...

If anything we should be taking the stoppers back from TPE who treat them as an inconvenience. If only Northern had a few extra 195s that could keep time better than the 150s. You certainly don't want to be adding a Castleford stop to the Hallam semi-fasts, because that removes the overtaking opportunity.

 

[YorksLad12]

If anything we should be taking the stoppers back from TPE who treat them as an inconvenience. If only Northern had a few extra 195s that could keep time better than the 150s. You certainly don't want to be adding a Castleford stop to the Hallam semi-fasts, because that removes the overtaking opportunity.

Ah, but I didn't say add Castleford to the semi-fasts. That would be silly, given that they cut the corner at Altofts

In previous threads "we" did previously suggest stopping the semi-fasts at Normanton, at least once per hour in each direction; and there was a WYCA aspiration for three trains per hour to Pontefract from Leeds, two of which would run via Castleford. Nothing radical, just a bit of tinkering here and there, and very possible if Castleford P2 is brought back into use.

Yes, Northern should have the stoppers. But they don't.

 

[yorksrob]

The additional platform would certainly make a through service between Normanton/Castleford and York a lot easier to implement.

 

[YorksLad12]

It would certainly make a through service between Normanton/Castleford and York a lot easier to implement.

We need an "Oh no, not again" button.

I think it's at least 10 years ago that I sat in on a conversation about Castleford between a local Councillor and 'Big' Phil Verster at Network Rail, and pointed out that if they were committed to rebuilding P1 they could do bits of P2 at the same time such as platform edges, as the station would be closed to trains during the work. P2 for Leeds, P1 for everywhere else always made sense to me even with the additional PIS, shelter and signalling costs. So genuinely looking forward to seeing how this work turns out and how permanent it is.

 

[yorksrob]

We need an "Oh no, not again" button.

I think it's at least 10 years ago that I sat in on a conversation about Castleford between a local Councillor and 'Big' Phil Verster at Network Rail, and pointed out that if they were committed to rebuilding P1 they could do bits of P2 at the same time such as platform edges, as the station would be closed to trains during the work. P2 for Leeds, P1 for everywhere else always made sense to me even with the additional PIS, shelter and signalling costs. So genuinely looking forward to seeing how this work turns out and how permanent it is.

Perhaps that ought to be a "you know it makes sense" button

 

[YorksLad12]

Perhaps that ought to be a "you know it makes sense" button

You know what would make sense? Manchester to York via Colne, Skipton, Ilkley, Otley, Harrogate (reverse), Wetherby, a new curve facing Garforth, Kippax, Castleford, Pontefract, new curve towards Ferrybridge Parkway and Church Fenton. That's a forum Bingo route waiting to happen

Doesn't work without the second platform, obvs

More seriously: yes, a second platform will increase calls for through services to York once more, which is why I'm interested to see whether it is a 'proper' second platform or some temporary arrangement with no direct cross-platform access or posh waiting shelter. It might, for example, only be used for TPE transfers; you can alight southbound or board northbound but not the other way around. It depends as well on which services will be running during the work, and which routes they will take.

 

[Bigman]

It would of course open up the possibility of running some York – Castleford - Leeds trains at rush hour which would give Sherburn a direct service to Leeds for the first time.

 

[YorksLad12]

It would of course open up the possibility of running some York – Castleford - Leeds trains at rush hour which would give Sherburn a direct service to Leeds for the first time.

True, though that's possibly not dependant on P2. And might go the way of the Goole service. But we have in times past had some good suggestions here for a recast of Hallam and Pontefract lines services... perhaps someone in power is paying attention?

 

[Freeston]

The reinstatement of Platform 2 and the provision of a new footbridge with lifts is an expensive project. One day last year I met Pete Myers, Client and Stakeholder Manager of Northern Rail, at the station. Just a chance meeting but it provided me with the opportunity to ask him if there was any possibility of trains once again running between Castleford and York. Mr. Myers gave me permission to quote him as follows:

"This is a major project. A Bailey Bridge platform could have been installed for use during the TransPennine Route Upgrade. Trains will run to York."

Mr. Myers informed me that the trains would likely be operated by TransPennine Express and not call at Normanton, where I live. He continued: "If we [Northern] start to run services they will."

 

[LittleAH]

TPE will be running through from May 23 is what I've heard. Extending Manchester - Huddersfield local services to York via Wakefield.

 

[Flying Snail]

Considering TP's ongoing inability to run their current timetable it is probably prudent to moderate expectations of them being able to run expanded services anytime soon.

 

[LittleAH]

Considering TP's ongoing inability to run their current timetable it is probably prudent to moderate expectations of them being able to run expanded services anytime soon.

Given Northern's abandonment of that route, some service is better than no service... And it's 8 months away.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Given Northern's abandonment of that route, some service is better than no service... And it's 8 months away.

Some reliable service is better than none. Some random service that might or might not run like most of TPE's isn't and 8 months is a very short period in the sad TPE saga.

 

[endofthetunnel]

Northern’s Huddersfield-Castleford service resumes in the Dec 22 timetable change, peak times only at the moment but it’s a start.

 

[yorksrob]

A stop at Normanton would be best for the York service, however a good connection at Castleford could also be useful.

 

[YorksLad12]

This service was included in the TfN papers for the Rail North meeting which was cancelled after The Queen died. See https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ester-improvements.236542/page-3#post-5846272

 

[Freeston]

TPE will be running through from May 23 is what I've heard. Extending Manchester - Huddersfield local services to York via Wakefield.

The proprietor of Cafe Vie at Wakefield Kirkgate station was concerned that the rent was so high given the number of trains calling at the station. In reply Network Rail CONFIRMED that trains would in the near future be calling at the station en route to York.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

TPE will be running through from May 23 is what I've heard. Extending Manchester - Huddersfield local services to York via Wakefield.

Any news on the stopping pattern beyond Huddersfield? Obviously Wakefield Kirkgate will be served, but a Mirfield call would be useful too.

Northern’s Huddersfield-Castleford service resumes in the Dec 22 timetable change, peak times only at the moment but it’s a start.

As you say, it's a start. Is there a plan for Northern to resume all-day service at some point in the future?
Either way, with both operators (re-)starting a service it's very much a feast or famine situation!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Oct 2022 ==

The reinstatement of Platform 2 and the provision of a new footbridge with lifts is an expensive project. One day last year I met Pete Myers, Client and Stakeholder Manager of Northern Rail, at the station. Just a chance meeting but it provided me with the opportunity to ask him if there was any possibility of trains once again running between Castleford and York. Mr. Myers gave me permission to quote him as follows:

"This is a major project. A Bailey Bridge platform could have been installed for use during the TransPennine Route Upgrade. Trains will run to York."

Mr. Myers informed me that the trains would likely be operated by TransPennine Express and not call at Normanton, where I live. He continued: "If we [Northern] start to run services they will."

The middle paragraph there is a bit ambiguous. The phrasing "could have been" suggests that that option isn't being taken forward?

Am I correct in assuming that a "Bailey Bridge" platform is a technical term for a temporary structure built over the top of an existing track?

 

[VideozVideoz]

They were indeed uploaded and put on sale in March 2020 from the May 2020 change date. Of course they weren't introduced.

So would this journey have meant a direct connection from Castleford through to Wakefield, Dewsbury, Mirfield and Huddersfield? I never realised this and it would be very useful to me right now!

 

[yorksrob]

I was thinking of services like Hampton Court and Chessington, which are guard operated (for now) but largely carry fresh air outwith the peaks. Though my point was simply that in Yorkshire we have to beg for 2-car scraps despite the demand on the route in question being less peak-oriented than the Surrey examples thanks to the school and college traffic. It simply isn't a level playing-field and it should be.

If anything we should be taking the stoppers back from TPE who treat them as an inconvenience. If only Northern had a few extra 195s that could keep time better than the 150s. You certainly don't want to be adding a Castleford stop to the Hallam semi-fasts, because that removes the overtaking opportunity.

A Normanton stop would be useful, and could give it a roughly half hourly service to Leeds.