Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[Jozhua]

I think that we all need to accept the fact that the Government spending over the period of this Covid-19 pandemic has now reached accumulated levels that even the Labour Party in their usual "We would have spent far more than that" riposte to anything whatsoever the Conservative government may have said they were preparing to spend on any type of project, just wondering how much the furlough scheme had cost so far as just one example.

Of course, on this website, we all have transport-blinkered eyes and kneel before the Golden Calf of Railways, but in the real financial world, the NHS will always remain the number one priority, with transport lagging quite some way down the "financial league table". What transport visions may well have been on the proverbial table prior to the Covid-19 pandemic now have to be subjugated to the financial situation currently applying.

Opex versus Capex is an important distinction we should make!

Having £100K in credit card debt is much worse than having a £100K mortgage. I think we can justify investment in infrastructure if it begets productivity.

We are seeing significant supply chain stress due to the UK's labour intensive logistics system - companies that started using rail freight for climate reasons have found themselves with markedly lower levels of disruption during the shortages (e.g. Tesco). Providing the projects provide medium/long term net positive economic benefit, there is absolutely no financial reason to not build them. The UK's infrastructure lags behind our European peers significantly and this is one of the key reasons Brexit has been so disruptive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We are seeing significant supply chain stress due to the UK's labour intensive logistics system - companies that started using rail freight for climate reasons have found themselves with markedly lower levels of disruption during the shortages (e.g. Tesco).

That is indeed very visible - Co-op (all road) are having major stock control issues, and Tesco seemingly far fewer.

 

[Greybeard33]

That is indeed very visible - Co-op (all road) are having major stock control issues, and Tesco seemingly far fewer.

Really? My local Co-op is well stocked, whereas the Tesco Extra had loads of empty shelves yesterday.

 

[WestRiding]

Sheffield to Manchester via Leeds would be far slower than the Hope Valley, even more so without NPR to speed up one leg.

Exactly. If one of the countries biggest cities, Sheffield cannot be taken seriously in terms of rail, it doesn't bode well for Leeds.

 

[Greybeard33]

NPR about 30 mins into PM's speech this morning:

That's it- HS2?

32:20 in, to be precise. But "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...." The PM did not mention HS2, but that does not mean it is cancelled.

 

[adrock1976]

If it is imperative for Bradford to feature as part of the NPR project, and assuming the eastern section of HS2 reaches Sheffield, would it be possible for NPR to have a second arm from Bradford heading towards Sheffield via the route that the ex Midland Railway was authorised to build, but ran out of money?

For clarity, I am referring to the half built route (i.e. the only thing missing was the track) that the Midland had intended to build via Dewsbury. This would provide an interchange with the Transpennine Route there. I am not sure if any of the original alignment is still intact except for the various rail overbridges that never had track laid on them.

 

[edwin_m]

If it is imperative for Bradford to feature as part of the NPR project, and assuming the eastern section of HS2 reaches Sheffield, would it be possible for NPR to have a second arm from Bradford heading towards Sheffield via the route that the ex Midland Railway was authorised to build, but ran out of money?

For clarity, I am referring to the half built route (i.e. the only thing missing was the track) that the Midland had intended to build via Dewsbury. This would provide an interchange with the Transpennine Route there. I am not sure if any of the original alignment is still intact except for the various rail overbridges that never had track laid on them.

The ask is Bradford to Manchester not Bradford to Sheffield.

I don't know about the unbuilt section, but the section of the Midland north of Swinton, that did open but closed in the 1980s and from which the Dewsbury/Bradford route diverged, is itself now pretty comprehensively destroyed.

 

[BrianW]

32:20 in, to be precise. But "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...." The PM did not mention HS2, but that does not mean it is cancelled.

It is evidence- a Leeds Metro was sort of 'promised' (or was it 'alluded to as a maybe possibility ...?) NPR was mentioned. Linking up cities of the midlands and the north. Yes. The PM chose what to mention and what not to- it's evidence. Not conclusive. The value of shares can go down. Smoking kills- not always.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Johnson did actually mention some roads by their known name.

 

[snowball]

It is evidence- a Leeds Metro was sort of 'promised' (or was it 'alluded to as a maybe possibility ...?)

He just mentioned the fact that there isn't one at present. Given his record, I don't think he'll regard that as a promise.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

32:20 in, to be precise. But "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...." The PM did not mention HS2, but that does not mean it is cancelled.

For those that don't want to watch him this is what he said

And my friends it is not good enough just to rely on Zoom.

After decades of ducked decisions, our national infrastructure is way behind some of our key competitors.

It is a disgrace that you still can’t swiftly cross the Pennines by rail, a disgrace that Leeds is the largest city in Europe with no proper metro system.

A waste of human potential that so many places are not served by decent bus routes.

Transport is one of the supreme leveller-uppers and we are making the big generational changes shirked by previous governments.

We will do Northern Powerhouse rail, we will link up the cities of the Midlands and the North, we will restore those sinews of the union that have been allowed to atrophy.

The A1 north of Berwick and on into Scotland; the A 75 in Scotland that is so vital for the links with northern Ireland and the rest of the country; the North Wales corridor.

And we will invest in our roads, unblocking those coagulated roundabouts and steering-wheel-bending traffic lights, putting on 4000 more clean green buses made in this country, some of them running on hydrogen.

Leeds to get a metro at last.....

Anyhow he's put his weight behind public transport lets now see what that translate into when the IPR and spending review are released.

 

[InOban]

This is OT but the longest single carriageway section of the A1 is South of Berwick.

 

[Purple Orange]

This big announcement amounted to a simple name check, but my conclusion is that we should expect NPR to be included in the integrated rail plan. The question is what form does it take?

 

[WestRiding]

Ahhhhh, the Integrated Rail Plan. Sick to the back teeth of waiting for this.

 

[BrianW]

Ahhhhh, the Integrated Rail Plan. Sick to the back teeth of waiting for this.

We would like to apologize for the late arrival ... but ...

 

[Purple Orange]

Ahhhhh, the Integrated Rail Plan. Sick to the back teeth of waiting for this.

I suspect a lot of people will be frustrated by a lack of detail in the document, however it has to be considered that this is intended to be a strategic plan. As long as the report gives clarity on which route the lines will take (i.e. what stations they will call at, like via Bradford or via Huddersfield), the sequence and what is out of scope.

 

[Bald Rick]

If it is imperative for Bradford to feature as part of the NPR project

Imperative on what grounds, and at what cost?

 

[Glenn1969]

Imperative on what grounds, and at what cost?

Some of us have been waiting 30 years for substantive improvements that were binned to save money by the Tories. If levelling up actually means anything they need to deliver those improvements now

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

"Transport is one of the supreme leveller-uppers and we are making the big generational changes shirked by previous governments.
We will do Northern Powerhouse rail, we will link up the cities of the Midlands and the North, we will restore those sinews of the union that have been allowed to atrophy.
The A1 north of Berwick and on into Scotland; the A 75 in Scotland that is so vital for the links with northern Ireland and the rest of the country; the North Wales corridor."

Something for everyone, and for all parts of the UK, it seems.
He's still left us guessing about an HS2b/NPR route, but there's scope to leave out the eastern leg without lying.
Cardiff will be baffled by the "North Wales corridor" unless he means electrification and maybe a few road upgrades.
He's also forgotten that the 2012 (CP5) HLOS was pretty ambitious (MML, electric spine, wires to Bristol/Swansea etc) and yet he says it was "shirked by previous governments".
The industry let that plan atrophy with excessive costs.

 

[InOban]

Imperative on what grounds, and at what cost?

Isn't Bradford the second largest city in West Yorkshire, and suffering by its poor rail links? If levelling up means anything.....

 

[WestRiding]

I do not understand why Bradford on NPHR is so important, given that it is probably Yorkshires most un-important City, well, it probably comes before Ripon, but.... Bradford is pointless and expensive deviation to what should be a direct rail line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2021 ==

Isn't Bradford the second largest city in West Yorkshire, and suffering by its poor rail links? If levelling up means anything.....

Bradford has excellent rail links to Leeds, and in reality, an extremely good service towards Manchester.

 

[Glenn1969]

I do not understand why Bradford on NPHR is so important, given that it is probably Yorkshires most un-important City, well, it probably comes before Ripon, but.... Bradford is pointless and expensive deviation to what should be a direct rail line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2021 ==


Bradford has excellent rail links to Leeds, and in reality, an extremely good service towards Manchester.

it also has express links to nowhere except London and even that is hamstrung by how long ot takes GC to reach Doncaster

 

[D6130]

Isn't Bradford the second largest city in West Yorkshire, and suffering by its poor rail links? If levelling up means anything.....

Yes....but it doesn't have a 'red wall' Tory MP and isn't likely to have one any time soon!

 

[WestRiding]

it also has express links to nowhere except London and even that is hamstrung by how long ot takes GC to reach Doncaster

Is 55 minutes, REALLY so terrible a journey time to Manchester. As for GC they are a joke, but its partly down to every Northern Town wanting a direct service to London, Mirfield and Pontefract for example. Just change at Leeds.

 

[snowball]

"Transport is one of the supreme leveller-uppers and we are making the big generational changes shirked by previous governments.
We will do Northern Powerhouse rail, we will link up the cities of the Midlands and the North, we will restore those sinews of the union that have been allowed to atrophy.
The A1 north of Berwick and on into Scotland; the A 75 in Scotland that is so vital for the links with northern Ireland and the rest of the country; the North Wales corridor."

Something for everyone, and for all parts of the UK, it seems.
He's still left us guessing about an HS2b/NPR route, but there's scope to leave out the eastern leg without lying.
Cardiff will be baffled by the "North Wales corridor" unless he means electrification and maybe a few road upgrades.
He's also forgotten that the 2012 (CP5) HLOS was pretty ambitious (MML, electric spine, wires to Bristol/Swansea etc) and yet he says it was "shirked by previous governments".
The industry let that plan atrophy with excessive costs.

The words "The A1 north of Berwick and on into Scotland; the A 75 in Scotland that is so vital for the links with northern Ireland and the rest of the country" appear to be a declaration of war against the Scottish government. The UK government has no responsibility for roads there. Imagine if Emmanuel Macron were to promise a meeting in France that he would build a road in England.

Similarly, Johnson has previously suggested that he will get the M4 Newport southern bypass built despite the fact that the Welsh government has decided against it.

The focus of these attempts at extra-territoriality is his "Union Connectivity Review" chaired by Sir Peter Hendy, the interim report of which in March produced this response from the Scottish transport minister in a letter to Grant Shapps:

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/49505/letter-to-grant-shapps-mp.pdf

Further to our call on 8 March, when we discussed the publication of the UK Government
Union Connectivity Review Interim Report, I am writing to you to set out why the Scottish
Government disagrees with the premise of the Review; the way in which it was established;
the lack of consideration given to the role of the devolved administrations in relation to
transport investment; and the ways in which the UK Government could use its role to
improve transport connectivity to Scotland, without encroaching on devolved powers.

PRINCIPLE OF THE REVIEW

The UK Government established the UCR without meaningful discussion, set the scope and
dictated the terms of reference. You have not sought to work with the devolved
administrations and we expressed this to you in our joint letter dated 16 September 2020.
Despite your reply in October, we have little confidence in your willingness to work with us in
a collaborative way. If it was the UK Government’s intention to genuinely address a missing
piece of transport connectivity, the Review would have considered in detail the transport
investment planning the Scottish Government has done to date and continues to undertake,
and would have focussed on those areas where the UK Government have powers rather
than encroaching into areas of devolved responsibility.

There is no evidence in the UCR interim report to support the UK Government’s assertion
that the purpose of the Review is to fill a gap in transport investment which exists due to
each of the devolved nations having an inward facing focus. . The reality is, the Scottish
Government does consider outward connectivity within our own investment decision making,
to either invest within our own responsibility or further the case for investment in areas which
are not devolved to Scotland, based on evidence.

 

[Glenn1969]

Is 55 minutes, REALLY so terrible a journey time to Manchester. As for GC they are a joke, but its partly down to every Northern Town wanting a direct service to London, Mirfield and Pontefract for example. Just change at Leeds.

for the distance involved yes it is

 

[Bald Rick]

Some of us have been waiting 30 years for substantive improvements that were binned to save money by the Tories. If levelling up actually means anything they need to deliver those improvements now

That was the question. The question is, what price is too much to include Bradford on NPR? What if it make the whole thing unaffordable, or worse value for money?

Isn't Bradford the second largest city in West Yorkshire, and suffering by its poor rail links? If levelling up means anything.....

But this is the problem. Levelling up doesn’t mean that everywhere benefits.

 

[Glenn1969]

That was the question. The question is, what price is too much to include Bradford on NPR? What if it make the whole thing unaffordable, or worse value for money?





But this is the problem. Levelling up doesn’t mean that everywhere benefits.

I would say no price is too much. Especially when you spread the cost out over the 60 year life of the project

 

[Bald Rick]

I would say no price is too much. Especially when you spread the cost out over the 60 year life of the project

You spread the benefits over 60 years. The cost is now.

What if it cost £4bn extra and made the benefits worse, as the journey times for everyone who used it except Bradfordians would be longer? Great for Bradford, bad for the north....

 

[fishwomp]

Some of us have been waiting 30 years for substantive improvements that were binned to save money by the Tories. If levelling up actually means anything they need to deliver those improvements now

Uh? What improvements are those you've been waiting for? What concrete plans have been binned in the 30 years (don't forget 13 of the 30 years (ie. since 1991) have been a Labour government, so Tory or not doesn't really come in to this).

Off-hand, I can think of electrification of Forster Square and the Ilkley/Skipton network, that was in 1994 - under the Tories. I can't think of any other changes that have happened, but neither can I think of any that were seriously proposed and that have been binned by either party (or the coalition).