Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[LittleAH]

But then it isn't NPR. it's just TRU and no one else benefits

I think what you're insinuating is that if it doesn't go through Bradford it isn't NPR - not the case.

NPR aims for circa 30 min journey between Leeds and Manchester. If it can be achieved for less cost and integrate in with TRU then a government looking as cutting costs will see it as a preferable option. NPR via Huddersfield would still need new infrastructure Manchester - Huddersfield.

 

[Purple Orange]

I think what you're insinuating is that if it doesn't go through Bradford it isn't NPR - not the case.

NPR aims for circa 30 min journey between Leeds and Manchester. If it can be achieved for less cost and integrate in with TRU then a government looking as cutting costs will see it as a preferable option. NPR via Huddersfield would still need new infrastructure Manchester - Huddersfield.

I think if NPR is to be a Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-N.East service, then I’d argue for a partial new build line via Huddersfield integrated with Trans Pennine Route upgrade. However if it ends up being a London/Birmingham to Leeds via Manchester line, then the Manchester-Leeds section should be a completely new build line.

 

[BrianW]

But then it isn't NPR. it's just TRU and no one else benefits

I benefit if money is not spent on projects that don't stand up.
Whatever any of us may think, we have the government people voted for.

Any proposals for dither-and-delay-repay?

 

[cle]

I think if NPR is to be a Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-N.East service, then I’d argue for a partial new build line via Huddersfield integrated with Trans Pennine Route upgrade. However if it ends up being a London/Birmingham to Leeds via Manchester line, then the Manchester-Leeds section should be a completely new build line.

I agree with this. The Piccadilly reversal is unfortunate but I suspect, too late to change. For that reason, it should probably be non-stop to Leeds, or with a parkway station somewhere that might serve Bradford, Huddersfield and/or Halifax, depending on the alignment. But, avoiding the traditional network as much as possible.

If it is the prime London-Leeds route, with the ECML benefits realized - then it has to be as quick as possible, and seen foremost as a part of HS2. Far more people travel from Leeds to London than to Liverpool. Manc is incidental here, and is already being upgraded (via Hudds) to a reasonable clip from Leeds. It could even be trialled as pick up only at Manc, or priced very highly - and actual competition offered. It's plenty of capacity overall.

 

[Purple Orange]

I agree with this. The Piccadilly reversal is unfortunate but I suspect, too late to change. For that reason, it should probably be non-stop to Leeds, or with a parkway station somewhere that might serve Bradford, Huddersfield and/or Halifax, depending on the alignment. But, avoiding the traditional network as much as possible.

If it is the prime London-Leeds route, with the ECML benefits realized - then it has to be as quick as possible, and seen foremost as a part of HS2. Far more people travel from Leeds to London than to Liverpool. Manc is incidental here, and is already being upgraded (via Hudds) to a reasonable clip from Leeds. It could even be trialled as pick up only at Manc, or priced very highly - and actual competition offered. It's plenty of capacity overall.

The idea of HS2 taking on Manchester-Leeds raises questions about capacity that I’d be concerned about.

1. It would still leave Liverpool-Leeds services running via Manchester Victoria, so would this become semi-fast on the classic lines? E.g. a 6 to 8 car class 350/185 equivalent, running from Liverpool to Hull or Scarborough, calling at places like Newton, Stalybridge, Hudderfield, Dewsbury etc?
2. If Leeds-Manchester would need to become a 20-25 min service, that would result in London-Leeds being roughly 1 hour 40 mins. Would that not be enough to also enable London-Newcastle services to run via HS2?
3. It would however, become the principal Cross Country route from Newcastle to Birmingham. Therefore how does this play in to service provision up the ECML? Newcastle was due to see 3x200m HS2 services (2 London and 1 Birmingham) and presumably 2x200m NPR services from Manchester & Leeds.
4. With the eastern leg, Leeds & Manchester was due to see capacity the equivalent of 3,000m of HS2 train each hour between them And with NPR it would be an additional 1,200m of train between the two each hour. How would this capacity be provided for under a new route set up?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The idea of HS2 taking on Manchester-Leeds raises questions about capacity that I’d be concerned about.

1. It would still leave Liverpool-Leeds services running via Manchester Victoria, so would this become semi-fast on the classic lines? E.g. a 6 to 8 car class 350/185 equivalent, running from Liverpool to Hull or Scarborough, calling at places like Newton-le-Willows, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, etc.

How many of those station examples you have quoted can comfortably take 8-car trains with their current platforms?

 

[Purple Orange]

How many of those station examples you have quoted can comfortably take 8-car trains with their current platforms?

I’m not sure about Newton, but all the rest can.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What are those?

Well:
- less land take, compulsory purchase, construction noise/disruption, landscape/woodland destruction
- simpler contracts, "invisible" progress, weatherproof (unlike the M62)

Cost will be higher of course, but the tunnelled route would be half the length of the avoided HS2 stretch, and would carry Leeds-London traffic.
I would guess the costing could be fairly accurate, although millstone grit is not like London clay or Chiltern chalk, as the Woodhead travails confirm.
Maybe the construction of the recent Swiss Alpine tunnels would be a better guide.
The route in Manchester and Leeds outside the portals would still be destructive, unless a fully-tunnelled route was adopted (ie via Piccadilly LL).
The Standedge and Calder Valley routes would still need electrifying for the frequent intermediate services.

I'm not advocating a direct tunnel over any other solution, and I would miss the scenery, but I can see why it might be attractive to the national politicos and engineers (maybe not to the locals).
It worked for the Italians in their (A)pennines.
No doubt the Integrated Rail Plan will tell us all the options.

 

[D6130]

calling at places like Newton,

Is there a big demand for travel to and from Newton-le-Willows, or would the stops there be mainly for connectional purposes?

 

[Purple Orange]

Is there a big demand for travel to and from Newton-le-Willows, or would the stops there be mainly for connectional purposes?

The point I’m making about the Liverpool services, is that they will no longer be in the frame for being the ‘fast’ service between Manchester, Leeds & Newcastle, if HS2 to Leeds is routed via Manchester. The current TPE services already stop at places like Newton or Lea Green so this isn’t something new. What would be different is considering Liverpool-Manchester-onwards not as a fast trans pennine Intercity service, but purely a commuter service (it’s not that far removed from what it is today).

If there was the following service pattern:

1. Liverpool, Newton, Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York, Scarborough
2. Liverpool, Newton, Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, Selby, Hull

That looks like a semi-fast commuter type service compared to the HS2 services which would inherently have a much higher capacity and frequency.

1. Euston, Old Oak common, Birmingham Interchange, Crewe, Manchester Airport, Piccadilly, Bradford, Leeds
2. Curzon Street, Crewe, Manchester Airport, Piccadilly, Bradford, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle

 

[Glenn1969]

But there won't be a new build line from Liverpool or beyond Leeds because TRU is "just" Manchester to Leeds and it's not NPR without the high speed. No one benefits except those going from Manchester to Leeds and a station at Bradford has been ruled out as too costly unless I have missed something

 

[BrianW]

But there won't be a new build line from Liverpool or beyond Leeds because TRU is "just" Manchester to Leeds and it's not NPR without the high speed. No one benefits except those going from Manchester to Leeds and a station at Bradford has been ruled out as too costly unless I have missed something

There are already TWO stations in Bradford; to Leeds' one. That's enough surely ...

 

[Purple Orange]

But there won't be a new build line from Liverpool or beyond Leeds because TRU is "just" Manchester to Leeds and it's not NPR without the high speed. No one benefits except those going from Manchester to Leeds and a station at Bradford has been ruled out as too costly unless I have missed something

This thread is purely speculation, because of the government approach. However in the context of recent murmurings, we might have a scenario where HS2 eastern leg is cancelled, but NPR (Manchester to Leeds) is built in it’s place. We don’t know if that is via Bradford or not.

That makes HS2 a London-Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds line. If that happened Liverpool services to Leeds would not be running on the NPR line (nowhere for them to access it), but continue as they are on the current line. The current line being the one where TRU is taking place. Hence Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Onwards runs on TRU track, but London/Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds runs on NPR track.

 

[BrianW]

This thread is purely speculation, because of the government approach. However in the context of recent murmurings, we might have a scenario where HS2 eastern leg is cancelled, but NPR (Manchester to Leeds) is built in it’s place. We don’t know if that is via Bradford or not.

That makes HS2 a London-Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds line. If that happened Liverpool services to Leeds would not be running on the NPR line (nowhere for them to access it), but continue as they are on the current line. The current line being the one where TRU is taking place. Hence Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Onwards runs on TRU track, but London/Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds runs on NPR track.

GBR trains on GBR track??

 

[edwin_m]

This thread is purely speculation, because of the government approach. However in the context of recent murmurings, we might have a scenario where HS2 eastern leg is cancelled, but NPR (Manchester to Leeds) is built in it’s place. We don’t know if that is via Bradford or not.

That makes HS2 a London-Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds line. If that happened Liverpool services to Leeds would not be running on the NPR line (nowhere for them to access it), but continue as they are on the current line. The current line being the one where TRU is taking place. Hence Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds-Onwards runs on TRU track, but London/Birmingham-Manchester-Leeds runs on NPR track.

Building the section from south of Manchester Airport to Liverpool would probably realise more "bang per buck" in relation to journey time saving than Manchester to Leeds, because the section into Manchester is "free" as part of HS2 and the rest is likely to be easier to build than going through the Pennines. However, capacity is limited on the section through Manchester Airport so it might be a question of using it for Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds trains or London-Manchester-Leeds but not both. The HS2 section south of Crewe may be full anyway.

 

[Purple Orange]

Building the section from south of Manchester Airport to Liverpool would probably realise more "bang per buck" in relation to journey time saving than Manchester to Leeds, because the section into Manchester is "free" as part of HS2 and the rest is likely to be easier to build than going through the Pennines. However, capacity is limited on the section through Manchester Airport so it might be a question of using it for Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds trains or London-Manchester-Leeds but not both. The HS2 section south of Crewe may be full anyway.

Yeah I very much doubt that the line would be used for London-Manchester-Leeds and Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds. However it is London bound trains that will be the most lucrative and it might be these services that make the investment in a Manchester-Leeds NPR line viable.

GBR trains on GBR track??

Sorry, I don’t follow what you’re getting at.

 

[BrianW]

Yeah I very much doubt that the line would be used for London-Manchester-Leeds and Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds. However it is London bound trains that will be the most lucrative and it might be these services that make the investment in a Manchester-Leeds NPR line viable.


Sorry, I don’t follow what you’re getting at.

Will there be differentiation between NPR and TRU and track and trains when GBR comes in?

 

[Killingworth]

I haven't had time to check through all 500 posts, but anyone dropping in for the first time must wonder what's in this Powerhouse for places like Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Hull, Grimsby, Barrow, Rotherham, Halifax, Burnley, Blackburn and Sheffield, all still off the wires. The Liverpool, Manchester, Bradford, Huddersfield, Leeds core seems to dominate leaving the rest behind. OK, Sheffield may get wired up to London by 2040 but not to Leeds or Doncaster.

I'll be interested to hear the priorities declared, and then to see how quickly the work actually gets done.

 

[Jozhua]

Using NPR as a replacement for HS2 east is a bad decision - it almost entirely removes any capacity relief for the MML or really any service improvement for the East Midlands.

There's a lot of noise about East-West connections and sure, this is neglected, but the HS2 eastern leg will help this significantly in regards to Cross Country and for people travelling from the East Midlands - North West (they can go via Birmingham and it will still be faster than current trips)

Plus, removing the Eastern Leg removes a large rationale for not building a base tunnel across the hope valley as the idea was that passengers from Sheffield/Midlands would travel up to Leeds and use NPR to get across the Pennines.

Also, from what I can tell NPR is going to he a 125/160mph railway. How does this fit with the 200mph goals of HS2, especially as it will lengthen the route?

By all means, do whatever improves service for the most people, but I have a feeling this decision was not made based on this rationale...

I would prioritise the HS2 Eastern Leg over NPR if it came to something going on the chopping block. I'd rather wait and see the results of the TRU as the ball is already rolling with that and just prioritise the Eastern Leg. Once we see how things to with TRU, then we can assess if we want to bore across the Pennines. I think there is still scope for extra Transpennine capacity, if only as a result of longer trains!

 

[Purple Orange]

Will there be differentiation between NPR and TRU and track and trains when GBR comes in?

It would just be two different lines. TRU really being an upgraded Trans Pennine mainline and NPR being an extension of HS2.

 

[edwin_m]

Plus, removing the Eastern Leg removes a large rationale for not building a base tunnel across the hope valley as the idea was that passengers from Sheffield/Midlands would travel up to Leeds and use NPR to get across the Pennines.

Sheffield to Manchester via Leeds would be far slower than the Hope Valley, even more so without NPR to speed up one leg.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think that we all need to accept the fact that the Government spending over the period of this Covid-19 pandemic has now reached accumulated levels that even the Labour Party in their usual "We would have spent far more than that" riposte to anything whatsoever the Conservative government may have said they were preparing to spend on any type of project, just wondering how much the furlough scheme had cost so far as just one example.

Of course, on this website, we all have transport-blinkered eyes and kneel before the Golden Calf of Railways, but in the real financial world, the NHS will always remain the number one priority, with transport lagging quite some way down the "financial league table". What transport visions may well have been on the proverbial table prior to the Covid-19 pandemic now have to be subjugated to the financial situation currently applying.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Well said Paul. I am almost tempted to start a speculation thread of the autumn statement/IRP what will be the priorities and then see who was closest come April 2022.

 

[BrianW]

Speculation?

Government urged to build HS2 in full to Leeds after Grant Shapps comments fuel speculation line could be delayed

Conservative and Labour politicians have united to urge the Government to ensure that HS2 is built in full after Transport Secretary Grant Shapps added to mounting speculation that a section of the high-speed rail route through Yorkshire is facing delays or could be axed totally.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Speculation?

Government urged to build HS2 in full to Leeds after Grant Shapps comments fuel speculation line could be delayed

Conservative and Labour politicians have united to urge the Government to ensure that HS2 is built in full after Transport Secretary Grant Shapps added to mounting speculation that a section of the high-speed rail route through Yorkshire is facing delays or could be axed totally.

www.yorkshirepost.co.uk

Is that the same Grant Shapps who said that Manchester Metrolink was coming to Bolton at one stage ? .... (there is a running thread about that matter on this website)

 

[Greybeard33]

I haven't had time to check through all 500 posts, but anyone dropping in for the first time must wonder what's in this Powerhouse for places like Sunderland, Middlesbrough, Hull, Grimsby, Barrow, Rotherham, Halifax, Burnley, Blackburn and Sheffield, all still off the wires. The Liverpool, Manchester, Bradford, Huddersfield, Leeds core seems to dominate leaving the rest behind. OK, Sheffield may get wired up to London by 2040 but not to Leeds or Doncaster.

I'll be interested to hear the priorities declared, and then to see how quickly the work actually gets done.

The NPR proposals TfN has put to the central government include:

• Electrification and upgrade of Hull to Leeds via Selby (2tph, 46 minutes journey time)
• Upgrade of Sheffield to Hull via Rotherham, Doncaster and both Goole and Selby (2tph, 67 minutes)
• Upgrade of Sheffield to Manchester (4tph, 34.5 minutes)
• Electrification and upgrade of Sheffield to Leeds via Rotherham and Barnsley (4tph, 23.5 minutes, but dependent on HS2 eastern arm).

https://transportforthenorth.com/wp-content/uploads/Northern-Powerhouse-Rail-Connect.pdf

All much cheaper than tunnels under the Pennines, but we will have to wait and see if any of it gets funded.

 

[BrianW]

The NPR proposals TfN has put to the central government include:

• Electrification and upgrade of Hull to Leeds via Selby (2tph, 46 minutes journey time)
• Upgrade of Sheffield to Hull via Rotherham, Doncaster and both Goole and Selby (2tph, 67 minutes)
• Upgrade of Sheffield to Manchester (4tph, 34.5 minutes)
• Electrification and upgrade of Sheffield to Leeds via Rotherham and Barnsley (4tph, 23.5 minutes, but dependent on HS2 eastern arm).

All much cheaper than tunnels under the Pennines, but we will have to wait and see if any of it gets funded.

So what; blah, blah, blah. That was June, this is now ... A week was a long time in politics in Huddersfield, and Huyton, and Sheffield- it still is, in Westminster, Welwyn and Hull.

 

[Killingworth]

The NPR proposals TfN has put to the central government include:

• Electrification and upgrade of Hull to Leeds via Selby (2tph, 46 minutes journey time)
• Upgrade of Sheffield to Hull via Rotherham, Doncaster and both Goole and Selby (2tph, 67 minutes)
• Upgrade of Sheffield to Manchester (4tph, 34.5 minutes)
• Electrification and upgrade of Sheffield to Leeds via Rotherham and Barnsley (4tph, 23.5 minutes, but dependent on HS2 eastern arm).

All much cheaper than tunnels under the Pennines, but we will have to wait and see if any of it gets funded.

That's TfN, but what we want to hear is what the government announces as their priorities, what they count as an upgrade, and then when it actually gets done.

As an example, Sheffield - Manchester in 34.5 minutes by 4 trains an hour needs a very expensive and long tunnel! Go all the way city centre to city centre and you could get it down to 20 minutes - dream on.

 

[BrianW]

NPR about 30 mins into PM's speech this morning:

That's it- HS2?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

NPR about 30 mins into PM's speech this morning:

That's it- HS2?

About 30 minutes into the speech shows that not everyone attaches as much importance to rail of any variety as the sworn acolytes of rail on this website...