Southeastern to OLR: what could happen next?

[ScottGallagher]

I thought the stations were more lilac than grey though it is a fine line!!

 

[bramling]

I thought the stations were more lilac than grey though it is a fine line!!

The SE colour is certainly less awful than WAGN used, but to my mind it’s still very drab and uninspiring.

 

[XAM2175]

A lot of people say that TFL would make a positive impact, but what could they actually do that other operators can't?

The assumption, pre-Covid, was that TfL would be willing to actually spend a bit of money of presentation compared to SE or the DfT. Obviously in current times things are a bit different.

 

[mangyiscute]

If Thameslink were to be removed from the Woolwich line then I can see SE or whatever replaces it, making the Rainham service into a Charing Cross service again, but that service will never become a TfL service as Dartford/Gravesend is as far as TfL are willing to operate to.

Surly this isn't too dissimilar to TfL rail taking over the Reading to Paddington stoppers but GWR still operate the Didcot to Paddington trains which use the same lines and call at many of the same stations. Granted there aren't any complex decisions there to decide which London terminal the trains serve but it proves that TfL can run trains on a similar service to another TOC.

On a completely separate note, I hope that there isn't too much of a re-brand for Southeastern since it would just be a waste of money which, as many have pointed out, could be much better spent on rejuvenating some of the stations.

 

[JonathanH]

Surly this isn't too dissimilar to TfL rail taking over the Reading to Paddington stoppers but GWR still operate the Didcot to Paddington trains which use the same lines and call at many of the same stations.

Yes, but TfL Rail has a brand new depot to service the 345s and the timetable at Paddington became more inefficient as a result as well - previously GWR ran Didcot - Paddington - Reading - Paddington - Didcot. Turnarounds for both TfL and GWR at Paddington had to be extended.

Even the hiving off of the east side service to TfL Rail had some inefficiencies about it.

 

[zcacmxi]

If the government can spare the army to 'help out' the Oil Companies, perhaps they can also send them in to paint the Stations too?
This will save TOCs the unwanted expence, just like the forward planning, training & recruitment expences avoided by the oil industry.

On SE I've already had Connex Yellow, SouthEastern Blue, so I don't mind if the Army brings their own paint and I get Green / camouflage this time.

 

[bicbasher]

Looking at the Sunday timetable for the SE Metro services, all but three lines and part of a fourth have at least 4tph now. The Hayes branch, Victoria-Orpington, Victoria to Dartford between Victoria and Lewisham and Charing Cross to Sevenoaks stoppers are still 2tph. Some of the Greenwich line stations have 6tph with Thameslink presumably as they'll be busier once the Elizabeth line opens.

So there have been some improvements finally from Southeastern, but there is still room for improvement with the Sunday timetable.

 

[317 forever]

Nah, it will be rebranded as "SOUTHEASTERN" with new stickers everywhere

So a bit like when Northern was taken back by the government - same trading name but changed to block capitals.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Surly this isn't too dissimilar to TfL rail taking over the Reading to Paddington stoppers but GWR still operate the Didcot to Paddington trains which use the same lines and call at many of the same stations. Granted there aren't any complex decisions there to decide which London terminal the trains serve but it proves that TfL can run trains on a similar service to another TOC.

On a completely separate note, I hope that there isn't too much of a re-brand for Southeastern since it would just be a waste of money which, as many have pointed out, could be much better spent on rejuvenating some of the stations.

Yes it is a similar situation, but as you say it’s less complicated.

Wasn’t the Paddington to Didcot semi fast service previously a Paddington to Oxford stopper?

 

[317 forever]

The Moorgate Inners are pretty much set for the Overground takeover, with the station refurbishments in the underground section, and the new trains, plus they’re pretty much self contained into one terminal.

The Dartford routes alone are a complex network in their own right, 4 routes (Sidcup, Bexleyheath, Woolwich and Greenwich) into four terminals (Victoria, CX, CS, Blackfriars thanks to Thameslink, and maybe 5 if we include St. Pancras as a terminal), mixture of inner and outer suburban services with mixed stopping patterns.

Im all for a TfL takeover, but I’m not sure if London Overground is the right one to run the SE metro routes, LO is more for simpler routes with one terminal like the Watford line or the Lea Valley lines, and the orbital routes with tube like frequencies.

I think the TfL Rail brand should remain in place for the South Eastern metro.

I wonder whether a major recast is possible such that Cannon Street becomes a London Overground terminus with trains for example only to Hayes, and Dartford via Bexley, with neither Hayes nor Bexley served by SouthEastern, and the other lines only served by SouthEastern.

Also, as Grove Park - Bromley North is a stand-alone service similar to Romford - Upminster, this could transfer to London Overground even if the rest of SouthEastern remains unchanged.

 

[bramling]

So a bit like when Northern was taken back by the government - same trading name but changed to block capitals.

Given the trend with recent franchise names, one wonders if it might go to “South Eastern Railway”, albeit keeping most of the current branding and colour scheme.

The Southeastern era has been rather underwhelming, especially for the metro area, so could be time for a change, especially if this fits with longer-term aims.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I wonder whether a major recast is possible such that Cannon Street becomes a London Overground terminus with trains for example only to Hayes, and Dartford via Bexley, with neither Hayes nor Bexley served by SouthEastern, and the other lines only served by SouthEastern.

Also, as Grove Park - Bromley North is a stand-alone service similar to Romford - Upminster, this could transfer to London Overground even if the rest of SouthEastern remains unchanged.

This sounds similar to what I read a while go about this very subject, that the Greenwich and North Kent Lines become the outer suburban routes to Gravesend and Gillingham, tied in with Thameslink already, while the Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines become Dartford only lines.

Even this is complicated enough, because what will become of the rounders? Then there’s Lewisham Junction, which terminal to route the services into, though the 2018 timetable made Cannon Street the metro only terminal, with longer distances/semi fast services terminating at Charing Cross.

The Bromley-Grove Park shuttle is similar to the Romford-Upminster shuttle but I think this route should have been tied with CrossRail as a shuttle, similar to the old Chesham shuttle pre 2010.

I don’t expect any major changes until CrossRail has opened up to Abbey Wood in 2022/23, but even then it could be years before TfL are able to takeover new lines.

 

[bramling]

SE has about the worst catchment area of passengers of any toc who, as a collective, complain incessantly but also behave terribly. The North Kent line isn’t nicknamed “the scum” for nothing!

SE does have quite an odd mix for sure. There’s one of the last bastions of the bowler-hat brigade from areas like the Hastings line, yet the network has more than its fair share of trouble pretty much spread right across. I think it’s quite fair to say this is probably one of the worst. Parts of Essex would give it a run for its money though.

 

[317 forever]

This sounds similar to what I read a while go about this very subject, that the Greenwich and North Kent Lines become the outer suburban routes to Gravesend and Gillingham, tied in with Thameslink already, while the Bexleyheath and Sidcup lines become Dartford only lines.

Even this is complicated enough, because what will become of the rounders? Then there’s Lewisham Junction, which terminal to route the services into, though the 2018 timetable made Cannon Street the metro only terminal, with longer distances/semi fast services terminating at Charing Cross.

The Bromley-Grove Park shuttle is similar to the Romford-Upminster shuttle but I think this route should have been tied with CrossRail as a shuttle, similar to the old Chesham shuttle pre 2010.

I don’t expect any major changes until CrossRail has opened up to Abbey Wood in 2022/23, but even then it could be years before TfL are able to takeover new lines.

It may indeed make sense to postpone any recasting of SouthEastern services until after CrossRail to Abbey Wood opens. Travel patterns could change significantly, and even be changing now if a certain amount of home working is here to stay. So, any split into LO/SE could be out of date within 4 or 5 years.

 

[MotCO]

There was nothing in the London metro plan that said anything about southeastern losing access to Cannon Street just that the metro services devolved to tfl in regular service would serve specific terminals based on their calling pattern.

So for example if Hayes services in regular service would serve cannon Street only there would be nothing preventing them from serving Charing Cross during engineering works. Indeed this is not without precedent tfl Rail currently serve terminal 5 despite not calling at it before the pandemic.

The problem with that would be if Dartford lines ran into Cannon Street and Orpington/Sevenoaks lines ran into Charing Cross, then probably half the passengers on each train would have to change at London Bridge to get to their desired destination. If Dartford and Orpington/Sevenoaks ran into both Cannon Street and Charing Cross, this would not be such a problem. Large numbers of passengers changing at London Bridge would increase dwell times and add to journey times.

 

[43066]

SE does have quite an odd mix for sure. There’s one of the last bastions of the bowler-hat brigade from areas like the Hastings line, yet the network has more than its fair share of trouble pretty much spread right across. I think it’s quite fair to say this is probably one of the worst. Parts of Essex would give it a run for its money though.

The SE metro routes have a down trodden feel to them. Not helped by the lack of staffing, DOO and obviously the state the rolling stock has been allowed to deteriorate into. Even the 376s really are pretty grim these days.

Even the Hastings line had historical issues with drug abusers, the area around St Leonards in particular being notorious (albeit Hastings appears to have upped its game over the last few years due to London overspill). Some of the areas that are worst for anti social behaviour aren’t where you wouldn’t necessarily expect - the mid Kent line for example. Also Bat and Ball (albeit that’s a GTR station these days). Bromley South has a lot of well known issues which came to a head recently with a member of staff being stabbed. And then of course you have Dartford and the Medway towns which speak for themselves really and sadly, with the possible exception of Rochester, aren’t what most people would consider peasant places to spend any time at all in, let alone visit by choice.

 

[Kite159]

Yes it is a similar situation, but as you say it’s less complicated.

Wasn’t the Paddington to Didcot semi fast service previously a Paddington to Oxford stopper?

It used to be the Paddington - Oxford stopper before the wires came, breaking up the service at Didcot (to create a Didcot - Paddington 'stopper/semi-fast' & a Didcot - Oxford calling pattern bingo.

 

[the sniper]

The SE metro routes have a down trodden feel to them.

Ah don't worry, they'll get spruced up with black and white, lifeless RA2 signage soon enough! The vibe of 1970s BR will really improve them.

 

[43066]

Ah don't worry, they'll get spruced up with black and white, lifeless RA2 signage soon enough! The vibe of 1970s BR will really improve them.

I’m not sure the 1970s vibe has ever really left!

 

[bramling]

The SE metro routes have a down trodden feel to them. Not helped by the lack of staffing, DOO and obviously the state the rolling stock has been allowed to deteriorate into. Even the 376s really are pretty grim these days.

Even the Hastings line had historical issues with drug abusers, the area around St Leonards in particular being notorious (albeit Hastings appears to have upped its game over the last few years due to London overspill). Some of the areas that are worst for anti social behaviour aren’t where you wouldn’t necessarily expect - the mid Kent line for example. Also Bat and Ball (albeit that’s a GTR station these days). Bromley South has a lot of well known issues which came to a head recently with a member of staff being stabbed. And then of course you have Dartford and the Medway towns which speak for themselves really and sadly, with the possible exception of Rochester, aren’t what most people would consider peasant places to spend any time at all in, let alone visit by choice.

This ties in with my experiences - one can find undesirables pretty much anywhere on the franchise, even in what might be thought of as the nicer bits.

I’d say this is fairly unique to a franchise, the only other one which might compare is c2c, but their services generally don’t have the same downtrodden feel - clearly no need for TFL there.

Having said all this, nothing compares to some of the provincial light rail systems. Certain parts of Tyne & Wear Metro are pretty unpleasant to use especially at night, as well as stones through the windows being a fairly typical experience at pretty much any time of day, whilst I’ve seen stops on both the Manchester and Sheffield tram systems where the local kids entertain themselves by throwing stones at any people unfortunate enough to be waiting for a tram. You’re probably less likely to get stabbed though.

Agreed about Dartford and the Medway towns. Horrific places, sadly.

 

[JonathanH]

London Bridge station might be able to cope with more passenger churn if a) more services could run as a result of a simplified pattern, spreading the loadings and b) people chose to walk to the city rather than change for Cannon Street.

Not sure about London Bridge itself if more people had to walk across it.

Platform 6/7 and 8/9 do seem to be designed with the idea of more Charing Cross trains stopping. My experience is that very few passengers from Thameslink services change for Cannon Street.

What is the concept for the splitting of services into Cannon Street and Charing Cross?

Cannon Street
6tph from Dartford via Greenwich
4tph from Dartford via Bexleyheath
4tph from Dartford via Sidcup
4tph from Hayes

Charing Cross
2tph from Hastings
2tph from Tunbridge Wells
2tph from Ashford and beyond
4tph from Orpington / Sevenoaks
2tph from Gravesend
2tph from Faversham corridor (peak only)

Victoria (Lewisham route only)
2tph from Gravesend.

 

[Bayum]

Well Thameslink down the Greenwich line was a bit of a fudge anyway after they realised the trains wouldn't fit through Norwood Junction. I'm sure they would - and no doubt lots of people all across London would like direct links from their home station to the multiple London terminals which are technically feasible. But it's a balance between customer demands, reliable service and operational requirements which is as always, very hard to get right. Not to mention different passenger groups arguing for changes to services which would actually be to the detriment of the other one!

What's this? They don't fit?

 

[zwk500]

What's this? They don't fit?

As in the paths don't fit in the timetable.

 

[43066]

What's this? They don't fit?

I seem to recall it was Windmill Bridge junction Near East Croydon that was a particular pinch point on the route, and it was discovered there wasn’t sufficient capacity to deliver the planned GTR services (quite possibly Norwood Junction too!). Hence deciding to send them into Kent (which is also an ongoing farce three years on, with the Ashford depot still without sidings, the promised service non existent, and the drivers passing to Sevenoaks and Orpington to work trains form there).

 

[matt_world2004]

Here is the business case tfl developed for transferring southeastern they wanted as far as Dartford it appears

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rail-devolution-business-case-narrative.pdf

They estimated a 14% increase in passenger numbers and the document gives an indication of service pattern (This was pre covid)

 

[NorthKent1989]

London Bridge station might be able to cope with more passenger churn if a) more services could run as a result of a simplified pattern, spreading the loadings and b) people chose to walk to the city rather than change for Cannon Street.

Not sure about London Bridge itself if more people had to walk across it.

Platform 6/7 and 8/9 do seem to be designed with the idea of more Charing Cross trains stopping. My experience is that very few passengers from Thameslink services change for Cannon Street.

What is the concept for the splitting of services into Cannon Street and Charing Cross?

Cannon Street
6tph from Dartford via Greenwich
4tph from Dartford via Bexleyheath
4tph from Dartford via Sidcup
4tph from Hayes

Charing Cross
2tph from Hastings
2tph from Tunbridge Wells
2tph from Ashford and beyond
4tph from Orpington / Sevenoaks
2tph from Gravesend
2tph from Faversham corridor (peak only)

Victoria (Lewisham route only)
2tph from Gravesend.

This does seem straight forward but what about services via Blackheath and Woolwich? Is this the 2tph Gravesend service you listed? Or would this be the rerouted Thameslink Rainham service?

 

[JonathanH]

This does seem straight forward but what about services via Blackheath and Woolwich? Is this the 2tph Gravesend service you listed? Or would this be the rerouted Thameslink Rainham service?

Well that is the problem isn't it. If the Overground operator takes over services only as far as Dartford, does that leave Southeastern (or Thameslink) having to run the services which go to Gravesend on top of the Overground pattern. The obvious problem with the Blackheath to Woolwich service is how you fit it in and what frequency runs over it.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Well that is the problem isn't it. If the Overground operator takes over services only as far as Dartford, does that leave Southeastern (or Thameslink) having to run the services which go to Gravesend on top of the Overground pattern. The obvious problem with the Blackheath to Woolwich service is how you fit it in and what frequency runs over it.

The Blackheath to Woolwich route has only ever been 2tph and is likely to remain so, that would be the nationalised SE’s headache I guess, but I think it could fit in.

The document that was shared did suggest Gravesend would be taken over by TfL also as well as Dartford, but that was a few years ago so may have changed.

It may indeed make sense to postpone any recasting of SouthEastern services until after CrossRail to Abbey Wood opens. Travel patterns could change significantly, and even be changing now if a certain amount of home working is here to stay. So, any split into LO/SE could be out of date within 4 or 5 years.

CrossRail is definitely the game changer for this part of SE London, and it does make sense to wait until it’s fully opened up before any changes occur, home working has reduced but it hasn’t gone away and won’t for a long time.

Here is the business case tfl developed for transferring southeastern they wanted as far as Dartford it appears

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rail-devolution-business-case-narrative.pdf

They estimated a 14% increase in passenger numbers and the document gives an indication of service pattern (This was pre covid)

Thanks for sharing, very interesting read, it does mention Gravesend as being part of a TfL service.

It used to be the Paddington - Oxford stopper before the wires came, breaking up the service at Didcot (to create a Didcot - Paddington 'stopper/semi-fast' & a Didcot - Oxford calling pattern bingo.

Thanks for this information I thought as much, the Oxford stopper was handy but very slow of course

 

[CeeJ]

Well that is the problem isn't it. If the Overground operator takes over services only as far as Dartford, does that leave Southeastern (or Thameslink) having to run the services which go to Gravesend on top of the Overground pattern. The obvious problem with the Blackheath to Woolwich service is how you fit it in and what frequency runs over it.

I presume as part of any devolution agreement there would be a requirement to run X number of services beyond the current Oyster boundary, including the possible operation of stations on the Dartford-Gravesend part of the line. This would be done in consultation with Kent County Council and is already part of their latest (pre-pandemic) business case, with 3 trains from Victoria, 2 trains from Charing Cross, 3 further Charing Cross trains in the peak, and the 2 existing Thameslink services.

Here is the business case tfl developed for transferring southeastern they wanted as far as Dartford it appears

https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/rail-devolution-business-case-narrative.pdf

They estimated a 14% increase in passenger numbers and the document gives an indication of service pattern (This was pre covid)

Quite interestingly TfL update the Strategic Case for Metroisation every few years - the last update being in 2019. I believe the proposal is broadly the same as the one they sent to Grayling, but with updated modelling.

 

[Doomotron]

so I don't mind if the Army brings their own paint and I get Green / camouflage this time.

But won't people struggle to see the trains and stations?