EMR Class 360's

[Nottingham59]

I wouldn't discount the idea that the 360s run smoother (as opposed to quieter) than the other stock about. If they vibrate or hunt less than 222s/700s birds may not pick up on their approach.

And they have more vertical front ends, which perhaps may also have an effect on the outcome of any impact?

 

[weastebusdepot]

I'm on the entire fleet 5 days a week except 360121 as it's missing in action (actually it's at Eastleigh) and I've never come across any Class 360 that has a leaking roof - did you mention it to the guard?

Have you found all the others? I thought 360107 and/or 360114 were also away at Eastleigh, while 360115 had been sitting at Cricklewood awaiting attention for a while.

 

[Aictos]

Have you found all the others? I thought 360107 and/or 360114 were also away at Eastleigh, while 360115 had been sitting at Cricklewood awaiting attention for a while.

Correction, 107 and 121 are the only two I've yet to get.

 

[QSK19]

I'm on the entire fleet 5 days a week except 360121 as it's missing in action (actually it's at Eastleigh) and I've never come across any Class 360 that has a leaking roof - did you mention it to the guard?

No guard was there to mention it to whilst on the train; and by the time I got off it and sorted out my son (very heavy rain!), the guard who saw off the train when it departed had left. I think I may drop a note to EMR when I’m back home tonight.

 

[Aictos]

No guard was there to mention it to whilst on the train; and by the time I got off it and sorted out my son (very heavy rain!), the guard who saw off the train when it departed had left. I think I may drop a note to EMR when I’m back home tonight.

If you have social media, I suggest Twitter as to the guard not being visible now I don't know if EMR have told them not to be visible and just do dispatch duties from the rear most cab but on one trip recently, the guard made no appearances other then to operate doors at s station stop and the service could easily have been DOO if I hadn't seen the guard on the platform.

 

[_toommm_]

If you have social media, I suggest Twitter as to the guard not being visible now I don't know if EMR have told them not to be visible and just do dispatch duties from the rear most cab but on one trip recently, the guard made no appearances other then to operate doors at s station stop and the service could easily have been DOO if I hadn't seen the guard on the platform.

The OP may have even been in the middle unit of a twelve-car, or the front unit of an eight or twelve-car.

 

[Aictos]

The OP may have even been in the middle unit of a twelve-car, or the front unit of an eight or twelve-car.

That's true however EMR don't operate 12 car trains at the moment and from past experiences of the fleet, the guards aren't too visible at the moment least not on the ones I've used.

 

[westcoaster]

Just to double check, are you sure you're referring to 101 and not 121?

As I saw 101 yesterday and as per the rest of the fleet in passenger service, I didn't see any tinted windows.

I do know that 101 had it's second man side windscreen replaced Thursday due to a bird strike at one end.

my bad a slight typo meant 121

 

[Aictos]

my bad a slight typo meant 121

No worries, I thought you might have meant that one but thought I ask.

 

[QSK19]

The OP may have even been in the middle unit of a twelve-car, or the front unit of an eight or twelve-car.

Just for information, I was in the rear unit of an 8 car formation. If you imagine the orientation of the unit I was in is such that the pantograph is above the front of the third car, I was sitting in the rear of the second car (ie roughly in the middle of the unit). I believe that 121 has been at Eastleigh for so long due to corrosion(?): if so and based on my experience, do you think the roof has been as badly affected from corrosion as the rest of the shell maybe?

 

[Chriso]

3 x EMR 360’s today . 11:45 London St Pancras - Bedford, 20:39 Bedford - Luton and 21.25 Luton to London St Pancras . Guard never left cab of rear unit on o/b and both guards never left cab on return.

these trains worked perfectly fine on the Great Eastern DOO so see perfect sense post COVID to scrap the 12 car project and keep 8 car on DOO as the guards seem a total waste of money in the current climate

 

[bramling]

3 x EMR 360’s today . 11:45 London St Pancras - Bedford, 20:39 Bedford - Luton and 21.25 Luton to London St Pancras . Guard never left cab of rear unit on o/b and both guards never left cab on return.

these trains worked perfectly fine on the Great Eastern DOO so see perfect sense post COVID to scrap the 12 car project and keep 8 car on DOO as the guards seem a total waste of money in the current climate

If the guards / union keep up this nonsense over the 12-cars, then DOO could well be the outcome, and to be honest I wouldn’t be overly sympathetic.

12-car DOO has worked perfectly happily on comparable routes, including using non-gangwayed stock. It could work perfectly well here.

I’m all for guards, but a driver and guard on a 12-car commuter train is perfectly adequate.

 

[fgwrich]

My son and I are having a “train tourism” trip to Wellingborough today (he is absolutely mad about these and the 180s). We’re currently sitting in 360108 and have seen drips of water falling from the ceiling (video attached) - is it an actual leak or could it be from the air con units?

I don't think it's a new thing to be frank - I've seen it happen on a number of the SWT / SWR Desiro Fleet over the years and have put it down to Condensation rather than any leaks - The Desiro Air Con being the most effective of all the Air Con EMUs.

 

[Aictos]

If the guards / union keep up this nonsense over the 12-cars, then DOO could well be the outcome, and to be honest I wouldn’t be overly sympathetic.

12-car DOO has worked perfectly happily on comparable routes, including using non-gangwayed stock. It could work perfectly well here.

I’m all for guards, but a driver and guard on a 12-car commuter train is perfectly adequate.

I disagree, it is a new method of working and such is a change to the terms and conditions of said guard's and is easily avoidable by just running all services as 8 car sets or if they do need to run 12 cars to have a second member of staff who carry out similar duties to a Southern OBS or a RPI under the direction of the guard.

Having a second person actively checking tickets in the first and second unit of a 12 car swapping at Luton along the guard being proactive in the rear most unit is a acceptable compromise as it not only leads to better customer experience, it reduces fare evasion and allows 12 car operations.

Just because 12 car operation has happened elsewhere DOO with the Class 360s doesn't mean it can happen easily here as it's a different method of working or have you not taken that into account?

For example when the Class 365s went to Scotland, they could have just been used in DOO mode as they have for years on the Great Northern but as they have a different method of staffing they had a driver and a guard.

I think for now the idea of running 12 car Class 360s should be binned as it's more important to reduce the number of 4 car services and run as much as possible as 8 cars.

I notice that nobody has batted a eyelid over EMR employing strike breakers with just a day's training to run those trains when the fully trained guards take months to train up, not only that but EMR are putting them up in hotels and paying all expenses which I think as a taxpayer is wrong especially as it's my money paying for this.

 

[Fincra5]

If the guards / union keep up this nonsense over the 12-cars, then DOO could well be the outcome, and to be honest I wouldn’t be overly sympathetic.

12-car DOO has worked perfectly happily on comparable routes, including using non-gangwayed stock. It could work perfectly well here.

I’m all for guards, but a driver and guard on a 12-car commuter train is perfectly adequate.

They're not going to be DOO any time soon.

 

[CBlue]

I disagree, it is a new method of working and such is a change to the terms and conditions of said guard's and is easily avoidable by just running all services as 8 car sets or if they do need to run 12 cars to have a second member of staff who carry out similar duties to a Southern OBS or a RPI under the direction of the guard.

Having a second person actively checking tickets in the first and second unit of a 12 car swapping at Luton along the guard being proactive in the rear most unit is a acceptable compromise as it not only leads to better customer experience, it reduces fare evasion and allows 12 car operations.

Just because 12 car operation has happened elsewhere DOO with the Class 360s doesn't mean it can happen easily here as it's a different method of working or have you not taken that into account?

For example when the Class 365s went to Scotland, they could have just been used in DOO mode as they have for years on the Great Northern but as they have a different method of staffing they had a driver and a guard.

I think for now the idea of running 12 car Class 360s should be binned as it's more important to reduce the number of 4 car services and run as much as possible as 8 cars.

I notice that nobody has batted a eyelid over EMR employing strike breakers with just a day's training to run those trains when the fully trained guards take months to train up, not only that but EMR are putting them up in hotels and paying all expenses which I think as a taxpayer is wrong especially as it's my money paying for this.

As someone not involved with any of this stuff bar the occasional passenger journey - how is it a different method of working? It's an emu that had previously been used in 12 car operation in East Anglia, driver only. From an outside viewpoint I can't say it's obvious why that can't continue to happen with EMR?

 

[43102EMR]

As someone not involved with any of this stuff bar the occasional passenger journey - how is it a different method of working? It's an emu that had previously been used in 12 car operation in East Anglia, driver only. From an outside viewpoint I can't say it's obvious why that can't continue to happen with EMR?

Will have to have cameras installed then, as mirrors won’t be present on the MML

 

[westcoaster]

Will have to have cameras installed then, as mirrors won’t be present on the MML

could be CD/RA, bat and flag. look back bat and flag, doesn't need to be cctv.

 

[Kneedown]

Also I wonder if any study is done on the strikes above 100mph. Does the extra speed cause weakness, do they require an uprated window screen.

I doubt it. I've had a single pigeon cause a crack across the entire windscreen before we were allowed to exceed 100mph with them.

I don't think birds are any more attracted to 360's than any other unit. You normally get a few pigeons per trip with a 222. When they sense the train close they panic and explode from the lineside trees, or track. Often in your path. Pigeons and Pheasants are the more prevalent victims. Crows seem to have a bit more about them. Very rare you'll get one of them.
It's just that the windscreens seem to be bit more fragile on the 360 compared to other classes. Whether that's due to thickness, laminating, or shape I could'nt say.

 

[59CosG95]

I doubt it. I've had a single pigeon cause a crack across the entire windscreen before we were allowed to exceed 100mph with them.

I don't think birds are any more attracted to 360's than any other unit. You normally get a few pigeons per trip with a 222. When they sense the train close they panic and explode from the lineside trees, or track. Often in your path. Pigeons and Pheasants are the more prevalent victims. Crows seem to have a bit more about them. Very rare you'll get one of them.
It's just that the windscreens seem to be bit more fragile on the 360 compared to other classes. Whether that's due to thickness, laminating, or shape I could'nt say.

They certainly have a larger surface area than their neighbours/cousins on the WCML! Perhaps that's an effect?

 

[bramling]

I disagree, it is a new method of working and such is a change to the terms and conditions of said guard's and is easily avoidable by just running all services as 8 car sets or if they do need to run 12 cars to have a second member of staff who carry out similar duties to a Southern OBS or a RPI under the direction of the guard.

Having a second person actively checking tickets in the first and second unit of a 12 car swapping at Luton along the guard being proactive in the rear most unit is a acceptable compromise as it not only leads to better customer experience, it reduces fare evasion and allows 12 car operations.

Just because 12 car operation has happened elsewhere DOO with the Class 360s doesn't mean it can happen easily here as it's a different method of working or have you not taken that into account?

For example when the Class 365s went to Scotland, they could have just been used in DOO mode as they have for years on the Great Northern but as they have a different method of staffing they had a driver and a guard.

I think for now the idea of running 12 car Class 360s should be binned as it's more important to reduce the number of 4 car services and run as much as possible as 8 cars.

I notice that nobody has batted a eyelid over EMR employing strike breakers with just a day's training to run those trains when the fully trained guards take months to train up, not only that but EMR are putting them up in hotels and paying all expenses which I think as a taxpayer is wrong especially as it's my money paying for this.

First of all, I would say I don’t have a vested interest in this as it’s not a service I use, nor am likely to. However I work with people who do, so have some idea of feelings from a user perspective.

And those feelings are that 12-car working was promised, and notwithstanding Covid this is the service people expect to be delivered. People really aren’t interested in having a babysitter sitting in a cab or walking up and down the train, especially on peak services where personal security isn’t a salient issue. I do agree that the immediate priority should be delivering a robust 8-car service though.

I’m not really advocating DOO, as IMO the optimal method of working is with a guard. However if this is causing issues then absolutely DOO should be looked at, either fitting bodyside cameras or CD/RA, which shouldn’t be a massive difficulty given the relatively small number of stations served.

In the longer term, again if this is such a major issue, perhaps it might just be easier to find a way of getting gangwayed stock onto the route (something involving 387s perhaps). There is absolutely no need for gangways on this route, but we are where we are. Without getting too speculative, one does wonder whether there’s even a case to split it off from EMR and have it run by TSGN, albeit not part of the Thameslink network.

 

[43066]

I doubt it. I've had a single pigeon cause a crack across the entire windscreen before we were allowed to exceed 100mph with them.

I don't think birds are any more attracted to 360's than any other unit. You normally get a few pigeons per trip with a 222. When they sense the train close they panic and explode from the lineside trees, or track. Often in your path. Pigeons and Pheasants are the more prevalent victims. Crows seem to have a bit more about them. Very rare you'll get one of them.
It's just that the windscreens seem to be bit more fragile on the 360 compared to other classes. Whether that's due to thickness, laminating, or shape I could'nt say.

Two cracked windscreens and counting for me! Both south of Bedford, so 100mph. The 360 windscreens are undoubtedly a lot more vulnerable than either the 222s the 180s are. Undoubtedly not helped by the fact the cabs aren’t streamlined, so the pigeons impact at a steeper angle.

 

[43102EMR]

First of all, I would say I don’t have a vested interest in this as it’s not a service I use, nor am likely to. However I work with people who do, so have some idea of feelings from a user perspective.

And those feelings are that 12-car working was promised, and notwithstanding Covid this is the service people expect to be delivered. People really aren’t interested in having a babysitter sitting in a cab or walking up and down the train, especially on peak services where personal security isn’t a salient issue. I do agree that the immediate priority should be delivering a robust 8-car service though.

I’m not really advocating DOO, as IMO the optimal method of working is with a guard. However if this is causing issues then absolutely DOO should be looked at, either fitting bodyside cameras or CD/RA, which shouldn’t be a massive difficulty given the relatively small number of stations served.

In the longer term, again if this is such a major issue, perhaps it might just be easier to find a way of getting gangwayed stock onto the route (something involving 387s perhaps). There is absolutely no need for gangways on this route, but we are where we are. Without getting too speculative, one does wonder whether there’s even a case to split it off from EMR and have it run by TSGN, albeit not part of the Thameslink network.

The TSGN franchise can barely run the services they already have, let alone the addition of the Corby service!

 

[bramling]

The TSGN franchise can barely run the services they already have, let alone the addition of the Corby service!

We’re not talking much though - three extra stations, and 20 or so trains. And in many ways being a London commuter operation it fits better with TSGN’s portfolio, rather than a remote outpost of the East Midlands franchise.

 

[43066]

First of all, I would say I don’t have a vested interest in this as it’s not a service I use, nor am likely to. However I work with people who do, so have some idea of feelings from a user perspective.

And those feelings are that 12-car working was promised, and notwithstanding Covid this is the service people expect to be delivered. People really aren’t interested in having a babysitter sitting in a cab or walking up and down the train, especially on peak services where personal security isn’t a salient issue. I do agree that the immediate priority should be delivering a robust 8-car service though.

I’m not really advocating DOO, as IMO the optimal method of working is with a guard. However if this is causing issues then absolutely DOO should be looked at, either fitting bodyside cameras or CD/RA, which shouldn’t be a massive difficulty given the relatively small number of stations served.

In the longer term, again if this is such a major issue, perhaps it might just be easier to find a way of getting gangwayed stock onto the route (something involving 387s perhaps). There is absolutely no need for gangways on this route, but we are where we are. Without getting too speculative, one does wonder whether there’s even a case to split it off from EMR and have it run by TSGN, albeit not part of the Thameslink network.

I think the concern (rightly or wrongly) is the precedent that will be set for when the 810s come in, as well as general dissatisfaction at various historical matters that have never been resolved. That said it’s a little difficult not to take the view that the dispute has already been lost, with the drivers’ agreements around non gangwayed multiple unit ops dating back to when 170s were used on EMR intercity services. Hopefully a compromise will be reached as clearly this dispute rumbling on and on isn’t in anyone’s best interests.

As someone not involved with any of this stuff bar the occasional passenger journey - how is it a different method of working? It's an emu that had previously been used in 12 car operation in East Anglia, driver only. From an outside viewpoint I can't say it's obvious why that can't continue to happen with EMR?

It isn’t in the drivers contracts for one thing. It’s not a method of working recognised at EMR. There has been no proposal for DOO on this route, it’s a complete red herring.

 

[D365]

could be CD/RA, bat and flag. look back bat and flag, doesn't need to be cctv.

Can you expand on the acronyms please.

 

[Kneedown]

Two cracked windscreens and counting for me! Both south of Bedford, so 100mph. The 360 windscreens are undoubtedly a lot more vulnerable than either the 222s the 180s are. Undoubtedly not helped by the fact the cabs aren’t streamlined, so the pigeons impact at a steeper angle.

I wonder if the slight "balloon" in the shape could be a factor? I'm not aware of the flatter screened 321's having issues (maybe someone could enlighten me?) And the 310's and 312's had their curved screens modified during their lifetime to reduce the cost of breakages.
I should point out, that my pigeon struck the corner of the screen, which is the weakest point.

 

[bramling]

I think the concern (rightly or wrongly) is the precedent that will be set for when the 810s come in, as well as general dissatisfaction at various historical matters that have never been resolved. That said it’s a little difficult not to take the view that the dispute has already been lost, with the drivers’ agreements around non gangwayed multiple unit ops dating back to when 170s were used on EMR intercity services. Hopefully a compromise will be reached as clearly this dispute rumbling on and on isn’t in anyone’s best interests.




It isn’t in the drivers contracts for one thing. It’s not a method of working recognised at EMR. There has been no proposal for DOO on this route, it’s a complete red herring.

The trouble is there seem to be multiple different issues being raised, and it doesn’t really play out well in front of the potential end-user, as the basic reality is the more conditions (ie costs) are imposed on 12-car operation, the less 12-car trains there will be. All things being equal some passengers may like the idea of an extra member of staff, but I’m not sure many would go for it if bearing the cost or finding they get a shorter train as a consequence.

It does seem from what you say it’s more about precedent, in which case it does make me continue to wonder if it might simply have been easier (with hindsight) giving the Corby service to GTR. Hearing feedback from users, it doesn’t seem like there’s much satisfaction with EMR at the moment. When asked how things are since the timetable change, one colleague of mine who is a daily user responded with a certain one-word answer alluding to brown stuff… I suppose the consoling factor is that with the Covid situation 12-car running isn’t an urgent issue, however once again it isn’t a good look that the railway has once again struggled to deliver something relatively simple.

 

[Kite159]

Can you expand on the acronyms please.

CD - Close Doors
RA - Right Away

 

[43066]

The trouble is there seem to be multiple different issues being raised, and it doesn’t really play out well in front of the potential end-user, as the basic reality is the more conditions (ie costs) are imposed on 12-car operation, the less 12-car trains there will be. All things being equal some passengers may like the idea of an extra member of staff, but I’m not sure many would go for it if bearing the cost or finding they get a shorter train as a consequence.

Agreed. Hopefully it gets resolved before twelve car trains are needed (albeit useage is going up rapidly so that may not be as far off as we have been expecting).

It does seem from what you say it’s more about precedent, in which case it does make me continue to wonder if it might simply have been easier (with hindsight) giving the Corby service to GTR. Hearing feedback from users, it doesn’t seem like there’s much satisfaction with EMR at the moment. When asked how things are since the timetable change, one colleague of mine who is a daily user responded with a certain one-word answer alluding to brown stuff…

From what I’ve heard Bedford and Kettering have been pleased with the new timetable (when the trains run), Wellingborough rather less so, rather as you might expect! I can well imagine a lot of people are quite justifiably furious at the unreliability of the service over the last few months. As for the tired state of the trains internally, “embarassing” is one description I’ve heard more then once! It does seem to he going on the right direction, albeit taking rather longer than it should to do so.