Have Northern Upped Their Game?

[py_megapixel]

I used to favour TPE, but Northern's units currently seem far cleaner, with staff more visible rather than hiding in the back cab. TPE have really let cleanliness standards slip in the last few weeks, at least on the unglamorous Huddersfield stoppers.

I'd still probably have chosen TPE. The Sprinters which make up most of Northern's DMU fleet just don't feel that pleasant inside, mostly because of the absolute racket they make. The 185s are pretty noisy things but feel positively tranquil compared to the cacophony on a 150 of the engines, brakes and doors, not to mention the barely audible mess that passes for PA announcements.

For short journeys they're not unbearable, and to be fair there are now fewer times when one has to spend a long period on them given the prevalence of 195s on many of the longer distance routes, but there are still some long journeys which are entirely Sprinter.

I've generally found TPE guards to be quite good, though they tend to do fewer ticket checks than their Northern counterparts.

 

[driverd]

I've always had a positive experience of northern, if I'm honest. I would have usually described them as "rough and ready", but since the fleet roll out, more "tidy and ready". As a rule of thumb, I find the majority of services to be far more reliable than those of other TOCs around these parts, more consistently on time and generally less busy.

It's more a reflection of the nature of the operation, but "normal" delays on TPE can easily exceed 30 minutes, at northern, I'm surprised at 15 mins.

I do think northern come in for a lot of unfair/unjustified criticism, which, in my experience, is more from a vocal but small number of unhappy users (usually based around Manchester), whilst everyone else in Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Northumberland and Cumbria, are broadly very happy.

 

[TUC]

Currently on the 1752 Halifax to Leeds service. The automated announcement system announced 'This is Bradford Interchange' two minutes after it had left that station, and then announced it again just before arriving at New Pudsey.
.
This is exactly the same fault the trains had when they came into service over two years ago, when Northern said 'give us a few weeks to sort out teething problems'. Yet here we are with the same issue.

It suggests a company with no focus on detail and poor enforcement of quality service from the rolling stock owners.

No, Northern have not improved.

 

[185143]

I'm on a Northern 156 at the moment. Two passengers infront of me boarded, sat down and said "ooh it's very punctual!"

Now those are words I wouldn't have ever heard on a Northern train 2 years ago. It does feel like it's getting better. I've not been negatively affected by a cancellation for a while, though they did force me to spend an extra hour in the pub one day last week. Which I was obviously absolutely furious about...

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Northern have also been very slow to restore a full post-pandemic service on a number of lines. I doubt users of the Leeds-Lancaster and Leeds-Carlisle lines will have much positive to say about them

 

[js1000]

The Northern franchise has always been viewed as the poor relation in the rail industry with an unhealthy dependence on subsidy. However, given the franchise has a far lesser reliance on commuter traffic than most other franchises it is far better equipped to deal with permanent commuter passenger shortfall post-Covid.

The big difference has been new trains and fleet standardisation. New trains mean staff are willing to stay rather than move to TPE et al. Reducing the number of train types reducing time required to train up staff as well as maintenance costs. I feel getting rid of Pacers naturally boosted staff morale as well as passengers (particularly infrequent ones) and their opinion of the franchise.

All in all, the DfT will be very happy with how the franchise is performing at present. The fact they are willing to purchase more trains (probably some battery 331s once CAF sort the design out) and proceed with the Lostock to Wigan electrification is proof of that.

 

[Kite159]

I've been waiting for that to crop on the forums, not fully sure what happened so didn't post.

Although I would imagine any trains from Blackpool on Saturday nights will be full & standing even without the extra crowds from the fireworks

 

[philthetube]

I had a few days up in the Northwest this week, and found them to be perfectly functional....The only negative side was at one Lancasher seaside town, where there was one leaf of a double door open checking tickets, then another ticket check at the barrier line, and the only time I had to show my railcard, and turn it over 'to make sure it had been signed'....

agree about the double check, but a bit harsh to complain when someone does their job correctly

 

[Sprinter107]

Travelled around the Northern lines in Cheshire, Lancashire and Manchester for a few days last week. The trains were clean inside and out, and punctual, the staff were friendly. The only annoyance were all the auto announcements. Absolute overkill really.

 

[leonard clive]

First time back on the Mid-Cheshire line for me last week after 18 months. Train noticeably cleaner, and four carriages. Ran to time. No staff seen. As an aside, Stockport was much quieter than pre covid, fewer trains and fewer people generally.

 

[SuspectUsual]

First trip into Manchester for about 6 weeks, about the 10th since the first lockdown began.

And my train was cancelled, due to “a safety inspection of this train”.

The following one was on time and is clean, certainly compared to how they used to be, and the conductor has been checking tickets and seems pleasant. But it’s a pair of 150s though

 

[MikeWM]

Northern have also been very slow to restore a full post-pandemic service on a number of lines. I doubt users of the Leeds-Lancaster and Leeds-Carlisle lines will have much positive to say about them

Or indeed the Liverpool 'City Lines'. Eg. Huyton, which until Covid had a 'turn-up-and-go' 15-minute-interval service to/from Liverpool for decades, still has 45 minute gaps to/from Liverpool most hours, and it looks like it will stay that way until December.

 

[185]

I think Northern abandoning their 2312 Crewe to Manchester (54min journey, 35 miles) citing Network Rail engineering and replacing it with a 2hr 30m bus is not (imo) upping their game.

The bus isn't the problem, with a 55 minute road journey time... (google maps). Add in 15 mins more to stop at Wilmslow & Stockport = 1 hour 10mins.

Pennypinching, running just one bus doing all the local stops, departing at 2312 and arriving Manchester at 0142 (!) is probably not, imo, a great improvement in passenger experience.

The week before, most nights, the train departed with 35+ passengers. The week the bus was on, 1-3 passengers at most.

 

[py_megapixel]

I think Northern abandoning their 2312 Crewe to Manchester (54min journey, 35 miles) citing Network Rail engineering and replacing it with a 2hr 30m bus is not (imo) upping their game.

The bus isn't the problem, with a 55 minute road journey time... (google maps). Add in 15 mins more to stop at Wilmslow & Stockport = 1 hour 10mins.

Pennypinching, running just one bus doing all the local stops, departing at 2312 and arriving Manchester at 0142 (!) is not, imo, upping their game.

Is there really any point in a bus which stops at only WML and SPT anyway? Nobody in their right mind deliberately chooses uses the stopper end-to-end unless they bought a cheap Advance ticket (or particularly like 323s, I suppose).

 

[185]

Is there really any point in a bus which stops at only WML and SPT anyway? Nobody in their right mind deliberately chooses uses the stopper end-to-end unless they bought a cheap Advance ticket (or particularly like 323s, I suppose).

That time of night it is the *only* service running, given Transport Fails Wales abandoned their 1W76, the 2308 Crewe-Wml-Spt-Manchester 18 months ago, stating "not a problem, Northern are running a 2312"

Many people on the 2312 come off the Cardiff train that should have gone right through, not terminating at Crewe 'coz of Covid'.

 

[driverd]

I think Northern abandoning their 2312 Crewe to Manchester (54min journey, 35 miles) citing Network Rail engineering and replacing it with a 2hr 30m bus is not (imo) upping their game.

The bus isn't the problem, with a 55 minute road journey time... (google maps). Add in 15 mins more to stop at Wilmslow & Stockport = 1 hour 10mins.

Pennypinching, running just one bus doing all the local stops, departing at 2312 and arriving Manchester at 0142 (!) is probably not, imo, a great improvement in passenger experience.

The week before, most nights, the train departed with 35+ passengers. The week the bus was on, 1-3 passengers at most.

Are we sure this isn't legitimately due to engineering works?

If the 2312 is the last and only train on the route, it seems highly likely network rail may request a possession to come on a little early and bustitute that service.

 

[MattRat]

I was actually astonished recently when a 2 car 150 came from Manchester Oxford Road (to Liverpool Lime Street), and there was another 2 car 150 behind it. Normally a 150 would be itself and it would full to bursting, but maybe Northern finally noticed then problem.

 

[6Gman]

Used 3 Northern services today, first time since this 'ere Covid thing.

150 - nicely refurbished though the seat pitch could be more generous. Certainly cleaner than they generally were in the past.
319 - I like them. Clean and punctual.
323 - again a decent refurb.

The three were all punctual. Ticket check on the 319; hardly necessary on the 150 (barriered station to bs on my leg); no check on the 323 but since it was an emptying train out of Piccadilly probably not important.

 

[Swanley 59]

Things don't look so good tonight.

Major disruption between Carlisle and Newcastle, owing to a shortage of conductors, and major disruption between Doncaster and Leeds, owing to a shortage of drivers. I'm sure things will be better in the morning

 

[IanXC]

Things don't look so good tonight.

Major disruption between Carlisle and Newcastle, owing to a shortage of conductors, and major disruption between Doncaster and Leeds, owing to a shortage of drivers. I'm sure things will be better in the morning

I'm not entirely convinced that cancelling:

2B37 2222 Leeds to Doncaster
2B88 2232 Doncaster to Leeds
2N62 2107 Carlisle to Newcastle (service started there for Hartlepool)

Counts as "Major Disruption"?

None of them are last trains of the day...

 

[Swanley 59]

2B37 2222 Leeds to Doncaster
2B88 2232 Doncaster to Leeds
2N62 2107 Carlisle to Newcastle (service started there for Hartlepool)

Counts as "Major Disruption"?

True... I inadvertently misquoted Northern's website. It said "Severe" rather than "Major" disruption.

 

[IanXC]

True... I inadvertently misquoted Northern's website. It said "Severe" rather than "Major" disruption.

I'm not even sure that that warrants 'Severe' to be honest!

 

[Llandudno]

I'm not even sure that that warrants 'Severe' to be honest!

EMR and TfW would describe it as ‘Good Service’ in operation!

 

[Bigman]

Personally, I have had some very good journeys on new 195's and 331's both sides of the hill. Clean, loads of legroom, fast and punctual.

 

[WesternBiker]

With a railcard, to and from Manchester from Liverpool for £4 isn’t too shabby at all.

That’s incredible value. It’s more than that for a return from Wimbledon to Raynes Park (1 mile)…

 

[185]

Are we sure this isn't legitimately due to engineering works?

If the 2312 is the last and only train on the route, it seems highly likely network rail may request a possession to come on a little early and bustitute that service.

This was indeed down to a possession (near Chelford), but IMO, where Northern crosses the line is only running one bus, stopping everywhere, taking 2h30 instead of 54mins and blaming NR for it - the distance by car at 55mph is 50-60 mins.

With TFWs 2308, 1W76 cancelled north of Crewe many of the passengers boarding the 2312 are just going to Stockport or Manchester. Diversionary routes were also open via NLW and Stoke.

The telling point is that the week the train ran, 30-40 people would board it - a bus stopping everywhere mostly had none, and occasionally had just one passenger on.

 

[driverd]

This was indeed down to a possession (near Chelford), but IMO, where Northern crosses the line is only running one bus, stopping everywhere, taking 2h30 instead of 54mins and blaming NR for it - the distance by car at 50mph is 50 mins.

With TFWs 2308, 1W76 cancelled north of Crewe many of the passengers boarding the 2312 are just going to Stockport or Manchester. Diversionary routes were also open via NLW and Stoke.

The telling point is that the week the train ran, 30-40 people would board it - a bus stopping everywhere mostly had none, and occasionally had just one passenger on.

Just to play devil's advocate, but surely an express bus should be provided by TfW, given its their cancellation thats putting express passengers onto the stopper?

 

[185]

Just to play devil's advocate, but surely an express bus should be provided by TfW, given its their cancellation thats putting express passengers onto the stopper?

In the magic merry go round of pass-the-buck TFW suggested they don't need to run one... as there is a 2312

 

[driverd]

In the magic merry go round of pass-the-buck TFW suggested they don't need to run one... as there is a 2312

Therefore, TfWs failure to provide for their customers when the 2312 isn't available.

To the uninitiated, welcome to the privatised railway!

 

[AutoKratz]

As a commuter in the North East I still don’t feel there’s many good things to say about Northern. We’re still having to make do with the cast offs from the rest of the rail network. 32 year old 156s, poor journey times compared to the car, last minute cancellations, expensive tickets, depressing run-down stations etc. Some serious investment is needed in this part of the world to improve the entire railway - services, stations and trains. The fact the north east is practically its own self contained rail network has meant it has suffered over many decades from being the lowest priority area in the lowest priority franchise.