Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[gg1]

Not cost at all?

No.

It used to be when I was younger and had less cash but now speed, convenience and comfort trump price.

 

[reddragon]

Not cost at all?

In reality cost differences are often small / marginal. Driving rather than public transport is more of a mindset than anything else, laziness at looking at the best options

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No.

It used to be when I was younger and had less cash but now speed, convenience and comfort trump price.

I agree, but unusually do consider public transport because I know how to access the information to determine the best option and many don't know.

I would like to cycle more but so often I have no destination parking / safe storage and the route limits me to an e-bike. which is rather stealable.

 

[DustyBin]

If many people take this view then yes, EVs will be to the detriment of walking and cycling. EVs are too big, too heavy and use too much energy to be used as raincoats.

Will EV users ride trains and buses more or less than before?

With very low running costs and less mechanical wear and tear from short journeys I think the temptation will be there for a lot of people. I wouldn’t like to predict actual statistics but I’m sure some people will choose to commute in their EV rather than use public transport. The answer to the thread title therefore is probably “yes” to a certain extent at least.

 

[reddragon]

With very low running costs and less mechanical wear and tear from short journeys I think the temptation will be there for a lot of people. I wouldn’t like to predict actual statistics but I’m sure some people will choose to commute in their EV rather than use public transport. The answer to the thread title therefore is probably “yes” to a certain extent at least.

Decisions are often quite marginal. My local town is 5 miles away.

Option A - drive. I drive 2 miles to the station which takes 6 minutes then another 3 miles to the town which takes 30-40 minutes giving me a typical end to end journey of 45 mins

Option B - I go to the station and get the train. I only need to leave 10 minutes before the train departs, but say I allow 15 minutes. The train takes 8 minutes. My end to end journey is 30 mins.

The EV costs nothing to drive, an ICE maybe £2 or £3. Driving is a hassle, traffic, finding parking and then it will cost me £8 to park, or £30 all day.

A train is just £4 return and quicker, I drive but why?

The very high station parking charge eliminates the saving. OK if I could walk there otherwise prohibitive. Prior to COVID getting a parking space required a pre 7.30am arrival and the village car parks are priced to stop long stays over 3 hours or ban it. Services have been trashed since class 800s cracked up taking the class 387s away, so even with spaces available any convenience has vanished. What do I do when the hourly train gets cancelled yet again?

I could drive nearer town to access the better bus services, but they are slow due to traffic, have a tricky payment system that suits regulars not new users and there's nowhere I can park & ride due to permit zones.

So my son uses the train. Why? I can drop him off at the station, he has a season ticket and his destination is quicker & more reliable by train. He has predictable travel times including going to the local town because for him that trip is free and quick.

So we see that marginal choices result in changing decisions. Cost is a part of that.

 

[ashkeba]

Most people won't walk or cycle if it is raining and they own a car. So they are already using petrol and diesel cars as raincoats.

Yes, it is not a new problem. It is one that might be overcome by giving e bikes and scooters similar promotion and incentives as e cars.

And maybe subsidizing decent coats for British people. Give people a tax credit for buying one. That always seems to motivate many people!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, it is not a new problem. It is one that might be overcome by giving e bikes and scooters similar promotion and incentives as e cars.

I doubt it.

And maybe subsidizing decent coats for British people. Give people a tax credit for buying one. That always seems to motivate many people!

I have a few expensive hillwalking jackets to hand (£200+ a pop) and I would still go in the car if it was tipping down.

 

[DustyBin]

Decisions are often quite marginal. My local town is 5 miles away.

Option A - drive. I drive 2 miles to the station which takes 6 minutes then another 3 miles to the town which takes 30-40 minutes giving me a typical end to end journey of 45 mins

Option B - I go to the station and get the train. I only need to leave 10 minutes before the train departs, but say I allow 15 minutes. The train takes 8 minutes. My end to end journey is 30 mins.

The EV costs nothing to drive, an ICE maybe £2 or £3. Driving is a hassle, traffic, finding parking and then it will cost me £8 to park, or £30 all day.

A train is just £4 return and quicker, I drive but why?

The very high station parking charge eliminates the saving. OK if I could walk there otherwise prohibitive. Prior to COVID getting a parking space required a pre 7.30am arrival and the village car parks are priced to stop long stays over 3 hours or ban it. Services have been trashed since class 800s cracked up taking the class 387s away, so even with spaces available any convenience has vanished. What do I do when the hourly train gets cancelled yet again?

I could drive nearer town to access the better bus services, but they are slow due to traffic, have a tricky payment system that suits regulars not new users and there's nowhere I can park & ride due to permit zones.

So my son uses the train. Why? I can drop him off at the station, he has a season ticket and his destination is quicker & more reliable by train. He has predictable travel times including going to the local town because for him that trip is free and quick.

So we see that marginal choices result in changing decisions. Cost is a part of that.

I totally agree; the pros and cons are often marginal.

I can walk to my nearest T&W Metro station in 10 minutes, so in reality from leaving the house to getting on the train takes 15-20 minutes assuming there’s a good service. It then takes roughly 15 minutes to get to the city centre at a cost of £4.00 (return). It normally takes 15 minutes or so to drive to the city centre so even by the time I’ve parked up it’s generally quicker by car. It costs no more than £3.00 in fuel there and back. Parking is the main cost consideration, if I’m there for say 2 hours it will cost me £3.00 (depending on where I park). So taking the car is quicker and more convenient but slightly more expensive. What really tips the balance is if my GF and I both travel in (which we often do). Driving then becomes cheaper so it’s a no brainer, especially when she’s bought a load of stuff we can chuck in the boot! When you break it down it becomes apparent that using public transport doesn’t always make sense, even in an urban environment with a regular rail service.

 

[reddragon]

I think what both of these real cases shows is that electric cars will have a minimal effect of the use of public transport and only on certain types of marginal trips.

On the other hand, it make trips that you wouldn't have considered more likely.

My local main village is 2 miles away and has all the shops & facilities I might like to use. To park there, I have to find a space, fiddle around with coins, guess how long I'll stay, avoid ANPR cameras and fines. I instead go to another small town 10 miles away where parking is easier and free for 2 hours. The EV cost is the same but the ICE extra costs maybe the same as the parking fees. The EV makes me use the further town and not the nearer village.

It seems that parking will be the key to demand management.

 

[AM9]

I think what both of these real cases shows is that electric cars will have a minimal effect of the use of public transport and only on certain types of marginal trips.

On the other hand, it make trips that you wouldn't have considered more likely.

My local main village is 2 miles away and has all the shops & facilities I might like to use. To park there, I have to find a space, fiddle around with coins, guess how long I'll stay, avoid ANPR cameras and fines. I instead go to another small town 10 miles away where parking is easier and free for 2 hours. The EV cost is the same but the ICE extra costs maybe the same as the parking fees. The EV makes me use the further town and not the nearer village.

It seems that parking will be the key to demand management.

Part of the reluctance to use public transport and turn to the car is about the incremental expense involved. When road charging is introduced it will make some think twice before driving, - parking won't cost any less for an EV. Where journeys involve routes with adequate public transport provision, the charges for those road will be proportionately higher. There will be an ideal chance to educating motorists just how much their journey costs society through their own pocket.

 

[DustyBin]

Part of the reluctance to use public transport and turn to the car is about the incremental expense involved. When road charging is introduced it will make some think twice before driving, - parking won't cost any less for an EV. Where journeys involve routes with adequate public transport provision, the charges for those road will be proportionately higher. There will be an ideal chance to educating motorists just how much their journey costs society through their own pocket.

Whilst some form of road charging scheme is certainly a possibility, punishing motorists doesn't make for great headlines or great election results.... I think you need to manage your own expectations in this regard. With respect, you appear to be anti-car in general and I honestly don't think some of the measures you'd like to see implemented will be in reality.

 

[Bald Rick]

Whilst some form of road charging scheme is certainly a possibility, punishing motorists doesn't make for great headlines or great election results.... I think you need to manage your own expectations in this regard. With respect, you appear to be anti-car in general and I honestly don't think some of the measures you'd like to see implemented will be in reality.

Road charging is a dead cert. Replacing fuel duty / fuel VAT income is an absolute must for Government.

The question is how, and how soon.

 

[reddragon]

Road charging is a dead cert. Replacing fuel duty / fuel VAT income is an absolute must for Government.

The question is how, and how soon.

Although road charging is looking a dead cert I don't think it will happen due to 'spying' concerns.

Areas such as parking space charges, congestion charges and annual tax charges maybe an easier tax option.

We also have to remember that the health costs of air pollution exceed the car taxable income.

 

[Bald Rick]

Although road charging is looking a dead cert I don't think it will happen due to 'spying' concerns.

We’ll have to disagree about that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

We’ll have to disagree about that.

It can be done without "spying" if the driver's location is not sent to the central servers. Cars could instead download a map of charges.

 

[DustyBin]

We’ll have to disagree about that.

It is the obvious solution, as you say it's probably more a matter of how and when.

There are however other possibilities such as taxing electricity used for charging. Whilst not as straightforward as road charging I don't see why it couldn't be done. A friend of mine suggested (tongue in cheek) they could tax tyres at 100% or more (this obviously wouldn't fill the void in itself). I shouldn't give them ideas, especially when one of my cars has a "drift mode"!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is the obvious solution, as you say it's probably more a matter of how and when.

There are however other possibilities such as taxing electricity used for charging. Whilst not as straightforward as road charging I don't see why it couldn't be done. A friend of mine suggested (tongue in cheek) they could tax tyres at 100% or more (this obviously wouldn't fill the void in itself). I shouldn't give them ideas, especially when one of my cars has a "drift mode"!

The simplest form would be a per-mile rate charged based on a higher-security odometer, possibly with different rates per size/weight of vehicle. A bit "blunt instrument" but broadly equivalent to fuel tax.

 

[Bald Rick]

It can be done without "spying" if the driver's location is not sent to the central servers. Cars could instead download a map of charges.

Although, as I have opined before, if you have a relatively modern car, it is more than likely to be sending location data to central servers already. Ditto if you have a smart phone. And if you are driving on any part of the strategic network (national or local), or in almost any town, you will be being ANPRd regularly.

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The simplest form would be a per-mile rate charged based on a higher-security odometer, possibly with different rates per size/weight of vehicle. A bit "blunt instrument" but broadly equivalent to fuel tax.

Agreed, and that may happen. Albeit it’s quite blunt, blunter even than fuel duty.

 

[DustyBin]

The simplest form would be a per-mile rate charged based on a higher-security odometer, possibly with different rates per size/weight of vehicle. A bit "blunt instrument" but broadly equivalent to fuel tax.

Again I agree, that's the obvious (if imperfect) solution.

 

[DelW]

Although road charging is looking a dead cert I don't think it will happen due to 'spying' concerns.

Anyone driving on motorways, major roads or in urban areas is likely to be driving past not just ANPR cameras but also average speed cameras, which read number plates as well.

 

[reddragon]

Anyone driving on motorways, major roads or in urban areas is likely to be driving past not just ANPR cameras but also average speed cameras, which read number plates as well.

I am aware of all this other tracking but the general public will forget them and make a huge fuss on a hit the motorist tracking tax unless a lot of work is done to remove the tracking element.

So then the tracking element is moved, and you are driving on Balmoral Estate on private road, what then? How do you challenge that charge? What if you drive abroad?

With the IT record of state run IT projects it will be a poll tax on wheels!

Not saying that it isn't the right solution, just that it maybe a politically dangerous solution.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am aware of all this other tracking but the general public will forget them and make a huge fuss on a hit the motorist tracking tax unless a lot of work is done to remove the tracking element.

So then the tracking element is moved, and you are driving on Balmoral Estate on private road, what then? How do you challenge that charge?

Why should one not pay tax for driving a road-registered vehicle regardless of where it is driven? It's just a tax. It doesn't have to be fair.

Most people driving such vehicles on their estate are rich and can afford it. Tractors could be exempted completely or charged at a flat rate as they spend most time not on the road.

What if you drive abroad?

One option would be that your odometer is read on leaving and re-entering.

 

[Bald Rick]

What if you drive abroad?

You’d still pay. Under odometer based mileage charging, foreign registered cars won’t be paying over here, so it’s swings and roundabouts.

 

[reddragon]

You’d still pay. Under odometer based mileage charging, foreign registered cars won’t be paying over here, so it’s swings and roundabouts.

Yeah, that's going to work, not!

I drive a lot abroad so do I register my car abroad to avoid tax?

 

[gg1]

I am aware of all this other tracking but the general public will forget than and make a huge fuss on a hit the motorist tracking tax unless a lot of work is done to remove the tracking element.

So then the tracking element is moved, and you are driving on Balmoral Estate on private road, what then? How do you challenge that charge? What if you drive abroad?

With the IT record of state run IT projects it will be a poll tax on wheels!

Not saying that it isn't the right solution, just that it maybe a politically dangerous solution.

This is one of the real problems of the switch to EVs, there is no ideal solution to the issue of how to replace revenue lost from fuel duty.

Two big advantages of fuel duty over other forms of taxation are it's virtually impossible to evade (even those driving untaxed, uninsured or stolen vehicles still have no choice but to pay fuel duty) and it's relatively simple to administer, far more so than the collection of any mileage based taxation. The net effect of both of these is for the exchequer to receive the same amount of revenue, motorists will have to pay more.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yeah, that's going to work, not!

I drive a lot abroad so do I register my car abroad to avoid tax?

You might do, but assuming other countries do the same, then you’d surely be paying their rates.

Very few people do drive abroad, in their own cars, ‘a lot’ though.

 

[JamesT]

Yeah, that's going to work, not!

I drive a lot abroad so do I register my car abroad to avoid tax?

If you're a UK resident then you must register and tax it to use it in the UK. https://www.gov.uk/importing-vehicles-into-the-uk/temporary-imports

 

[AM9]

Whilst some form of road charging scheme is certainly a possibility, punishing motorists doesn't make for great headlines or great election results.... I think you need to manage your own expectations in this regard. With respect, you appear to be anti-car in general and I honestly don't think some of the measures you'd like to see implemented will be in reality.

Not really, There are two cars in my household but they are only used when there is a clear 'need', (and cold or wet weather does not create a need). As far as my expectation go, I don't expect any UK government to bring measures to realise whatever promises they may make in November with a step function, but the framework (some of which is already there) will be steadily reinforced until there is a significant volume of the electorate that does agree with stronger measures. Events like exceptional rainfall, extended periods of record high temperatures and the increasing fragility of our fuel, food and material resources will in time, drive (pun not intended) opinion towards more responsible road space and energy use.

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Although, as I have opined before, if you have a relatively modern car, it is more than likely to be sending location data to central servers already. Ditto if you have a smart phone. And if you are driving on any part of the strategic network (national or local), or in almost any town, you will be being ANPRd regularly.

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Agreed, and that may happen. Albeit it’s quite blunt, blunter even than fuel duty.

The problem of traffic congestion, by which essential use of roadspace is denied to some by the less necessary use of others, will need to be addressed. Data from the existing ANPR network might be configured to enable many little congestion controlled zones across the country. The data would be time referenced (as most congestion issues are time of day/week/year related), so once established, charges could be levied.

 

[Bald Rick]

The problem of traffic congestion, by which essential use of roadspace is denied to some by the less necessary use of others, will need to be addressed. Data from the existing ANPR network might be configured to enable many little congestion controlled zones across the country. The data would be time referenced (as most congestion issues are time of day/week/year related), so once established, charges could be levied.

Whilst I agree, finding a solution that is simple to understand so that drivers know what they will have to pay up front, consistently, is a huge challenge.

 

[AM9]

Whilst I agree, finding a solution that is simple to understand so that drivers know what they will have to pay up front, consistently, is a huge challenge.

There are precedents with Congestion Zones. They are signed extensively and if drivers wanted to argue that they weren't there the infrastructure is in operation. As you would know, if the ANPR cameras surrounding the centre of St Albans were used for this purpose, drivers could be notified of them being active and if they were introduced generally, information would be included when vehicles are registered to use the public highway so the signage would be known to them.

 

[Bald Rick]

There are precedents with Congestion Zones. They are signed extensively and if drivers wanted to argue that they weren't there the infrastructure is in operation. As you would know, if the ANPR cameras surrounding the centre of St Albans were used for this purpose, drivers could be notified of them being active and if they were introduced generally, information would be included when vehicles are registered to use the public highway so the signage would be known to them.

Agreed, but consistency is crucial.