If Transpennine North is electrified...

[tbtc]

If the line from Liverpool - Warrington - Manchester - Huddersfield - Leeds - York is electrified (after the Liverpool/ Manchester/ Blackpool electrification is completed), what should happen to the Middlesbrough/ Scarborough/ Hull parts?

A. Electrify these routes, even though they get a less frequent service

B. Run diesels "under the wires" to maintain links

C. Cut the services - maintain EMUs on the Liverpool. Manchester Airport - Newcastle route and have DMUs doing Middlesbrough - York, Scarborough - York and Hull - Leeds?

(and, if your answer is "A", then what minimum frequency would you want to justify electrification)

 

[4SRKT]

Can I add a fourth choice of 'Don't electify the North Trans-Pennine' and vote for that?

 

[tbtc]

Can I edit polls? If so I will

 

[GNERman]

also what about "lease new bi-mode stock?"

My opinions -

A - Very costly, BCR probably not great and use would not be huge.
B - The sensible options, as what other TOC's do, probably the best for the time being...
C - That's not improving services, it just means a change and passengers like direct services, as Open Access has shown...

 

[ainsworth74]

Tough call one in which I have something of stake seeing as I use both Hull and Middlesbrough TPE service fairly regularly

But I personally I would say electrifying Hull - Leeds is an obvious choice. That allows not only TPE service to be EMU based but also HT to go over to EMUs as well as EC. You could also start running EMUs in stead of DMUs on York to Selby/Hull services. It could even lead to wiring Hull to Sheffield via Goole and Doncaster as a diversionary route, in which case there might be a case to split the Sheffield to Bridlington/Scarbrough services at Hull (EMU from Sheffield DMU to Brid/Scarborough). I don't know what route the Selby to Westgate takes but if it's direct (via Leeds) then that could also go over to EMUs.

Scarborough and Middlesbrough are tougher calls really, both only have 1tph and there aren't as many chances of other route being incidentally turned over to EMU operation so it's only really ever going to be 1tph (unless you wire the Durham line to Newcastle in which case there are benefits to be had). So on Middlesbrough/Scarborough I'm not sure. Being biased I would say there is a case to wire to Middlesbrough as it serves a larger population than Scarborough but I'm not sure that justifies it really.

Edit: Just spotted the vote decided to go for electrify it all seeing as I'm saying 2 out of 3 anyway might as well go the whole 9 yards. At least we would avoid the situation we have on the ECML now where some services have to be diesel spending 80% of their time under the wires.

 

[OMGitsDAVE]

I would say electrify it all out of those options.
Only other thing I could think of is bi-mode trains.

 

[MCR247]

Opposed to bi-mode trains, would this be possible

Overpowered EMU runs Newcastle - York
A DEMU runs from Scarborough say to York.
They join. They then run together to Manchester/Liverpool

I think this would be possible, if you had some DEMUs which panto cars

 

[tbtc]

Tough call

I thought it was a good way of taking the "diesels under the wire" argument and turning into a future dilemma. At the moment we have DMUs under wires because (for different reasons) there aren't suitable EMUs available.

But, when it comes to *new* electrification... it becomes harder to call. With no disrespect to Middlesbrough (I used to date a lass from Cleveland), there's an element of "tail wagging the dog" if the Middlesbrough/Scarborough trade has a heavy sway over the busier Leeds/Manchester traffic. But how to manage this? Send the Middlesbrough/Scarborough - Manchester services via Bradford/Halifax to maintain DMU links (whilst frequent EMUs concentrate on the core electrified York - Manchester service)? Dunno

I don't know what route the Selby to Westgate takes but if it's direct (via Leeds) then that could also go over to EMUs

Selby - Leeds - Bradford Interchange - Huddersfield - Wakefield Kirkgate - Wakefield Westgate. It wouldn't be wired in the middle part for a long long time.

 

[ainsworth74]

But, when it comes to *new* electrification... it becomes harder to call. there's an element of "tail wagging the dog" if the Middlesbrough/Scarborough trade has a heavy sway over the busier Leeds/Manchester traffic. But how to manage this? Send the Middlesbrough/Scarborough - Manchester services via Bradford/Halifax to maintain DMU links (whilst frequent EMUs concentrate on the core electrified York - Manchester service)? Dunno

We really do need some sort of bi-mode train if this country is going to stick to having electrified cores with un-electrified peripheries. Either that or we're going to have to begin cutting through journeys or even sending DMU's on more weird and wonderful routes (like the one you suggest). Tough call

Selby - Leeds - Bradford Interchange - Huddersfield - Wakefield Kirkgate - Wakefield Westgate. It wouldn't be wired in the middle part for a long long time.

Perhaps a long run up with passengers exiting on the move when running through un-wired sections? Seriously however I thought it took a very roundabout route. But hey no reason not to think about wiring up most Yorkshire!

 

[YorkshireBear]

i definitely wouldnt electrify scarbrough really really not worth it. What id do with scarbrough is have an airport to york (or darlington or newcastle) service which is an EMU

Remove the stops on the blackpool north york service extend it to scarbough as hebden bridge will never be electrified

Either have an EMU stopper operating (i think there would be space?) or add stops into TPE

I just think it would be too long from west yorkshire to scarbrough if it stopped at all stops that is all.

Electrify hull as mentioned and encourage HT to invest in some EMU's

not sure about middlsbrough... i dont know ti well enough so no comment

so i cant really vota as it fits under no catagories

 

[tbtc]

We really do need some sort of bi-mode train if this country is going to stick to having electrified cores with un-electrified peripheries. Either that or we're going to have to begin cutting through journeys or even sending DMU's on more weird and wonderful routes (like the one you suggest). Tough call

Its tricky.

There's no reason why Middlesbrough/ Scarborough/ Hull had regular hourly(ish) services to Leeds/ Manchester yet no service to London (other than one train a day from Hull) before HT started.

But losing a London service (or, not having one in the first place) may be tolerable for some places yet losing their last "long distance" routes may be a step too far.

Bi-mode sounds good on paper, but I'd like to see it work and settle down over a few years before it becomes "the answer" that people reach for to sort something out like this.

The headache is that despite the frequent Manchester - Leeds - York services, there wouldn't be that many DMUs "saved" if these lines were wired (unless you go to Middlesbrough/ Scarborough/ Hull or cut "through" links and replace them with shuttle DMUs in the "outskirts").

But, with the collective brains on here, I'm sure we can solve this. Either that or turn into a convoluted argument about the windows on 390s and the lack of Newbury - Exeter service
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I just think it would be too long from west yorkshire to scarbrough if it stopped at all stops that is all

True, but the local stops would have to be taken by something, probably an EMU shuttle?

 

[ainsworth74]

Bi-mode sounds good on paper, but I'd like to see it work and settle down over a few years before it becomes "the answer" that people reach for to sort something out like this.

Indeed, bi-mode is one of those things that makes me think "this is surely too good to be true!". The answer to all our problems when it comes to electrification, surely not?

Either that or turn into a convoluted argument about the windows on 390s and the lack of Newbury - Exeter service

Clearly Newbury needs better links to Exeter! Only a fool would think otherwise and until now I had thought you rather better than a fool tbtc :x

 

[me123]

I've voted to "run diesels under the wires". For the time being, I think that would be the best option so as to allow the valuable transpennine links to be maintained.

But I would advocate electrifying the rest as soon as is practicable. I think Scarborough would be a no-brainer-in itself it's only a short branch, but electrifying it gets services under the wires straight away. I also think Hull and Middlesbrough would be worthwhile, but you would also want to extend electrification on other routes to minimise the diesels-under-the-wires in the longer term (for example, electrifying the Durham Coast Line and Tees Valley Line). This would obviously require funding to extend the electrification itself and funding to get some more EMUs for Northern to replace the DMUs.

i definitely wouldnt electrify scarbrough really really not worth it.

As I've already said, I disagree. The branch in itself is lightly used. But electrifying it maintains the Scarborough-Liverpool train that benefits the town, without having to run diesels all the way from Liverpool-York under the wires.

 

[Aictos]

If you're going to electrify, you might as well do it properly and ensure as much as possible is electrified and not a half arsed effort like the ECML where only the Hertford Loop between Newcastle and Kings Cross offers a electric diversionary route.

So if Doncaster to Hull and York to Scarborough is being electrified then the coastal route between Hull and Scarborough should also be done.

There's no reason why a reduction in service is needed, a order could be placed for EMUs which could then offer passengers on the newly electrified line services of either 20 or 30 minute frequency.

 

[tbtc]

Indeed, bi-mode is one of those things that makes me think "this is surely too good to be true!". The answer to all our problems when it comes to electrification, surely not?

You and me both.

Maybe my cynical nature is at fault, but I have a nagging doubt that it won't be the magic wand that some hope it will

Clearly Newbury needs better links to Exeter! Only a fool would think otherwise and until now I had thought you rather better than a fool tbtc :x

I will take my tape measure to a 390 to prove otherwise

 

[YorkshireBear]

As I've already said, I disagree. The branch in itself is lightly used. But electrifying it maintains the Scarborough-Liverpool train that benefits the town, without having to run diesels all the way from Liverpool-York under the wires.

I agree it needs to keep its lond distance routes that is why i suggest what i did with extending blackpool york service

surely there isnt too many people from scrabough seamer and malton that need to go go manchester or liverpool that desperately that they cant cahnge at york or leeds? neither are bad places to change

True, but the local stops would have to be taken by something, probably an EMU shuttle?

i do suggest that in my post or adding stops to the shortened tpe service, but i think in electrification it would be easy enough just to add the stops in on an EMU shuttle

 

[tbtc]

If you're going to electrify, you might as well do it properly and ensure as much as possible is electrified and not a half arsed effort like the ECML where only the Hertford Loop between Newcastle and Kings Cross offers a electric diversionary route.

So if Doncaster to Hull and York to Scarborough is being electrified then the coastal route between Hull and Scarborough should also be done.

There's no reason why a reduction in service is needed, a order could be placed for EMUs which could then offer passengers on the newly electrified line services of either 20 or 30 minute frequency.

I agree that electrification should be done fully to maximise the benefits from it - its frustrating to see parallel lines unwired. It's just how to do this, and how to impact upon existing service provision to maintain the most effective use of EMUs

 

[Waverley125]

I'd electrify all of it. Firstly, because i think the areas mentioned need more frequent services. I'd like to see Middlesbrough get and 2nd service every hour through to Manchester, and an extra service an hour between Hull and Liverpool. Scarborough I think also needs better connection-both down to York and right through to Leeds-possibly an all-stops service.

 

[Invincibles]

I voted to scrap the direct trains because we have to be realistic about what would have a good benefit to cost ratio.

Hull is maybe an exception because of the ECML services that run there, and that could be done.

Scarborough I think is hard to justify, what should be done there is to improve the service between Scarborough and York so that there are good connections between Scarborough and London as well as Scarborough and Leeds/Manchester/Liverpool trains.

What the scope for remodelling York is I do not know, but if it could be possible to have cross platform connections onto Transpennine services then that would be very useful. Certainly the problems of the southern approach to York would be a good thing to solve, and if it can be done to the benefit of interchange at York then that is so much the better. (Also the south bays are cross platform. (Perhaps it would be possible to create a chord onto the Leeds - Hull line where it crosses the ECML and take electric Manchester trains that way?)

First the extra services on Scarborough to York have a positive side "increased frequency" adverts. Second when things bed down the case for electrifying the branch may still be bad but you can offer "new exciting links to Manchester and Leeds" It actually creates a lot of opportunity for good news. Seems a perfect post election policy in 2016 to announce the completion of the electric Leeds to Manchester corridor (including calder valley and huddersfield routes). Of course whether politics is really as cynical as that...

Of course I would like the whole thing to be electrified but I can not see that happening in one go.

 

[sprinterguy]

York to Scarborough and Northallerton to Middlesborough are peculiar through being deep in the heart of the Northern area but served almost solely by Transpennine Express. As such, I say electrify the lot! These two branches don’t represent a huge mileage that requires electrification, so it might as well all be done as one package. And Hull-Leeds is a no-brainer, as it would also allow Hull Trains services to go electric.

If it was the case that funding wouldn’t quite stretch to this, for an Option B I’d agree with ainsworth74 above that electrifying the Scarborough branch should be dropped and just the Middlesborough line electrified as it serves a larger population, with the Scarborough trains cut back to York and the York to Blackpool Northern service extended back to Scarborough as jimmyowl1992 suggested.

Opposed to bi-mode trains, would this be possible

Overpowered EMU runs Newcastle - York
A DEMU runs from Scarborough say to York.
They join. They then run together to Manchester/Liverpool

I think this would be possible, if you had some DEMUs which panto cars

I’ve often thought about such a concept: In the case of North TPE, a three carriage DEMU with panto car runs from an unelectrified origin and combines with a three/four carriage EMU over the electrified section from York or Leeds (whichever is more convenient operationally), with the DEMU powering it’s motors from the juice: Giving a six/seven carriage train over the core section with a better power to weight ratio than a bi-mode DEMU on its’ own.

 

[starrymarkb]

Or do as the Danes do and run EMU and DMU in formation, why complicate things by turning the engines off? it is still more efficient then just using DMUs

At the end of the wires the EMU is left and the DMU continues

 

[317 forever]

There are routes in the south that are electrified but basically only run an hourly service, such as Tunbridge Wells-Hastings, Cambridge-King's Lynn and Tottenham Hale-Stratford. I therefore see little reason why hourly routes elsewhere should not be electrified, including York-Scarborough and Northallerton-Middlesbrough.

 

[paul1609]

Tunbridge Wells to Hastings is half hourly formed of 8 car 377s even on Sundays. I would suggest that if it was transported to the North it would be reqarded as a very major flow.
Tottenham Hale to Stratford is a 4 mile link that was electrified originally for different passenger and freight flows. Kings Lynn was always a marginal case for electrification.

Personally Id start a rolling improvement to Transpennine.
Phase 1 would see electrification of leeds to York with a batch of 100 mph 4 car EMUs.
These would form a Bradford Foster Square to Morpeth Service which would replace the current Newcastle to Manchester service.
Phase 1 would also see line speed improvements to the ECML slow lines north of York and also to the Scarborough Branch which is painfully slow throughout.

 

[northwichcat]

or another option: use bi-modal trains on services that operate on both electrified and non-electrified routes.

The draft electrification RUS did suggest splitting services after wires went up. Examples:
* Hazel Grove-Doncaster electrification would have seen a Manchester Airport to Doncaster service and a separate Cleethorphes service.
* Crewe-Swansea electrification would have seen the end of Manchester services going beyond Swansea to Milford Haven and Carmarthern.
* York-Scarborough wouldn't have been electrified and that would have meant a Liverpool-York electrified service and a Scarborough-York-Preston-Blackpool diesel service.

 

[tbtc]

The draft electrification RUS did suggest splitting services after wires went up. Examples:
* Hazel Grove-Doncaster electrification would have seen a Manchester Airport to Doncaster service and a separate Cleethorphes service

That would be a good idea.

Firstly the service needs bigger capacity on the Manchester Airport - Doncaster section, but two coaches would be okay on a lot of Doncaster - Cleethorpes parts.

Secondly it'd avoid crossing the ECML (for similar reasons I wouldn't be surprised if the Sheffield - Scunthorpe stopper was chopped at Doncaster to avoid pathing it between fast ECML services at Doncaster station)

 

[Donny Dave]

* Hazel Grove-Doncaster electrification would have seen a Manchester Airport to Doncaster service and a separate Cleethorphes service.

That would be a good idea.

Firstly the service needs bigger capacity on the Manchester Airport - Doncaster section, but two coaches would be okay on a lot of Doncaster - Cleethorpes parts.

Secondly it'd avoid crossing the ECML (for similar reasons I wouldn't be surprised if the Sheffield - Scunthorpe stopper was chopped at Doncaster to avoid pathing it between fast ECML services at Doncaster station)

For that reason, I would extend the electrification to Scunthorpe, with a seperate service running from Scunthorpe to Cleethorpes.

There is room at Scunthorpe (now the goods yard at the back of the station has been ripped up) to remodel the station completely. This would mean the addition of a 3rd (through) platform and crossovers at each end of the station so that the stoppers from Sheffield and Cleethorpes can occupy 1 platform between them with out disrupting TPE and freight services.

EDIT :: I forgot to mention that 2 carriages from Scunthorpe can get "very cosy", especially on the 0800, 0910, 1010, 1610, 1710 and 1810 services. The morning ones definately, as that's when various off peak tickets become valid.

 

[Bevan Price]

Ideally, I would like to see most of the UK network electrified apart from some "relatively minor / secondary" lines. With Cameron's crowd & the DfT in charge, this will take until year infinity.

Given enough money, after completion of existing approved schemes, I would suggest the following priorities for Northern England, proceeding steadily over a number of years in the order listed:

1. Liverpool (South Parkway) - Warrington Cen - Manchester (Deansgate)
2a. Manchester Victoria - Huddersfield - Leeds - York.
2b. Guide Bridge - Stalybridge.
(Scarborough & Middlesbrough trains to be connections from York.)
3a. (Leeds) - Micklefield - Hull.
3b. Doncaster - Goole /Selby - Hull.
4. Darlington / Northallerton - Middlesbrough - Saltburn.
5. Manchester Victoria - Rochdale - Bradford & Leeds.
6. Preston - Hebden Bridge & Colne.
(essentially gap filling to avoid dmu's running under the wires)
7a. (Manchester ) - Salford Crescent - Wigan & Southport.
7b Bolton - Wigan (Wallgate & North Western).
8. Kirkham - Blackpool South -- line redoubled & extended to somewhere near the old Blackpool Central. (much of old formation is only used for car parking & roads that could be relocated relatively easily). South is poorly situated for the town centre. An electrified line with services to /from Manchester (rather than Colne) could have great potential.
9. Crewe - Chester (eventually reaching Holyhead & Llandudno)
And after MML electrication eventually reaches Derby / Sheffield:
10. Sheffield - Doncaster - Cleethorpes.
11. Manchester - Hope Valley - Dore -(Sheffield)

Elsewhere, similar schemes would eventually see Birmingham (Snow Hill / Moor St. ) local services also electrified, as well as Cardiff Valley lines. etc. ...

Bevan

 

[Aictos]

Ideally, I would like to see most of the UK network electrified apart from some "relatively minor / secondary" lines. With Cameron's crowd & the DfT in charge, this will take until year infinity.

Bevan

And it wouldn't under Milliband and co? They had 13 years to extend electrification, :roll:

Who knows if Labour had actually bothered to get on with electrification since being elected in 1997, the following routes might have been electrified by now:

Peterborough to Doncaster via Lincoln
Peterborough to Ely via March
Ely/Cambridge to Ipswich
Ely to Norwich

That's 5 routes which are useful not only for freight and passenger services but also when it's vital to maintain though services when there's engineering works on.

 

[ukrob]

Ideally, I would like to see most of the UK network electrified apart from some "relatively minor / secondary" lines. With Cameron's crowd & the DfT in charge, this will take until year infinity.

Just wondering, could you tell me how many miles of track that Labour electrified in their 13 years, and how much they spent on rail. Thanks in advance.

 

[Aictos]

Just wondering, could you tell me how many miles of track that Labour electrified in their 13 years, and how much they spent on rail. Thanks in advance.

Yes I was wondering that as well,