If LNER's Twitter feed is anything to go by, their trains were heaving yesterday because of the ScotRail fiasco, so using trains which are already busy to give Carlisle-Newcastle passengers a better service than they usually get isn't attractive business. The losers are Glasgow passengers from Newcastle and Yorkshire- I'd have thought that was a reasonably large customer base.
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LNER diversion via Carlisle
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185143
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The Southbound I was on was announcing Newcastle as the first stop ex Edinburgh, but did stop at Carlisle and open up for a crew change. The Scottish crew didn't announce that, but the crew that boarded did.
OliverH68
Member
Duly corrected!
Kite159
Veteran Member
I dare say there will be some guards who will do a 100% ticket check after Newcastle to weed out any passengers to/from Carlisle and charge for a new ticket.
Well there will certainly be one guard who would do that anyway
185143
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It must be... unless Newcastle-Kings Cross non stop is longer?
Paddington-Taunton must be a fair way too though, but it's not 3 hours. Is there a Paddington-Exeter non stop? I know there used to be an Exeter-Reading non stop-and a genuine non stop at that.
No since the Dec 2019 TT change and subsequent Covid alterations all Padd - West of England services call at both Reading and Taunton
A lot the issues at Newcastle during these diversions with the auto-announcers are software-related.
Other than saying that they’re a separate thing to whether Carlisle is an open stop or not, I can’t say too much about that on an open forum.
Those who know me may be able to read between some of the lines here.
Other than saying that they’re a separate thing to whether Carlisle is an open stop or not, I can’t say too much about that on an open forum.
Those who know me may be able to read between some of the lines here.
swt_passenger
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It’s 2h 36m booked time according to RTT
So would a ticket from York to Carlisle not be valid?
_toommm_
Established Member
They don’t have route knowledge on there, and I’m not sure with the amount of railtours on the line that there’s enough free paths for an hourly service.
43096
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But then it wouldn’t serve Newcastle.
Peregrine 4903
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DanNCL
Established Member
The situation with these diversions is nothing short of a shambles. Communication at stations about the reverse formations that these diversions have caused has in many cases been non existent, leading to sometimes hundreds of people making a dash down the platform as the train arrives the wrong way round so that they can board the correct part of the train. The removal of the passenger pick up/drop off facility at Carlisle has caused no end of inconvenience both for LNER's regular passengers and for regular users of the Tyne Valley line. Anyone travelling from stations south of Newcastle to Glasgow now either have to change twice (at Newcastle and at Carlisle), or have to do a detour via Edinburgh, sometimes just to double back on themselves to Carstairs again. Passengers and staff alike on the Northern service on the Tyne Valley line appreciated the LNER passenger calls at Carlisle as it removed those travelling through from Newcastle to Carlisle from the Northern services, leaving space for those wanting intermediate stations on the Tyne Valley line and actually giving some of those boarding at intermediate stations a chance of getting a seat on a service they'd normally have to stand on.
With regards to the LNER services being well loaded on the diversions, this has been the case for many years, and those travelling just between Newcastle and Carlisle joined them in the knowledge that they would likely have to stand, and if they didn't want to stand were able to take their usual Northern service instead.
Additionally this weekend there was no access to/from Heaton for stabling. Whilst TPE and Northern both found other ways to keep stock in place ready for the start of service on Sunday, LNER didn't bother and instead pulled the plug on everything from Newcastle before 10:30, nearly 3 hours after the normal start of service from Newcastle on a Sunday. I'm sure LNER have their reasons for this but from the passenger perspective this simply isn't good enough. Before anyone tries saying it's to do with the requirement for 80xs to be inspected at a Hitachi depot within a set timeframe for cracks, TPE managed to find a way round it with their 802s, so why couldn't LNER?
I stand by what I have said on many occasions in many threads that I think it was an incredibly bad move to allow crew knowledge for the Mark 4 sets at Newcastle to lapse, as it has resulted in a huge loss of flexibility both in times of disruption and during engineering work related timetable changes such as those in place to cater for the Tyne Valley diversions.
With regards to the LNER services being well loaded on the diversions, this has been the case for many years, and those travelling just between Newcastle and Carlisle joined them in the knowledge that they would likely have to stand, and if they didn't want to stand were able to take their usual Northern service instead.
Additionally this weekend there was no access to/from Heaton for stabling. Whilst TPE and Northern both found other ways to keep stock in place ready for the start of service on Sunday, LNER didn't bother and instead pulled the plug on everything from Newcastle before 10:30, nearly 3 hours after the normal start of service from Newcastle on a Sunday. I'm sure LNER have their reasons for this but from the passenger perspective this simply isn't good enough. Before anyone tries saying it's to do with the requirement for 80xs to be inspected at a Hitachi depot within a set timeframe for cracks, TPE managed to find a way round it with their 802s, so why couldn't LNER?
It shouldn't have done, as the 800s made booked passenger calls at Carlisle in 2019 when they shared the diversions with HSTs. TPE will also soon be making passenger calls at Carlisle with their 802s, so there's no issue with the trains themselves preventing the Carlisle stop from being a passenger call.
This has been a regular occurance on many northbound services south of Newcastle this time round.
How would ScotRail disruption mean more passengers are using LNER to travel to Newcastle? The only English station ScotRail serve is Carlisle.
IndeedWell there will certainly be one guard who would do that anyway
Multiple issues with that one. Crew knowledge would be a big hurdle to overcome, along with the lack of route clearance for the 800s on the S&C north of Skipton. It would also effectively remove 7 electric only trains (the retained 91+Mark 4 sets) from the available fleet on such days, as the inability to send those sets to Newcastle in service (which LNER imposed on themselves by allowing crew knowledge to lapse) would mean there was nothing to use them on, if the Leeds services were continuing up the S&C to Carlisle and Scotland. LNER are short of trains as it is, they don't need additional trains made effectively useless by the timetable.
I stand by what I have said on many occasions in many threads that I think it was an incredibly bad move to allow crew knowledge for the Mark 4 sets at Newcastle to lapse, as it has resulted in a huge loss of flexibility both in times of disruption and during engineering work related timetable changes such as those in place to cater for the Tyne Valley diversions.
The train was full and standing when I boarded at Peterborough. It thinned out at each stop and by the time it left Newcastle less than half the seats were taken. The Carlisle stop would have been useful for folk like me who were travelling from points south the Glasgow. If they don't want Northern passengers on them - there's a simple solution, don't advertise the service as stopping at Carlisle on the Newcastle departure boards.
Intrigued as the the lines @43023 infers we can read between, alas, I am not in the know
.Falcon1200
Established Member
I think this means passengers from Newcastle (and other LNER stations) for Glasgow who normally change at Edinburgh would be better served, when LNER are diverting via Carlisle, by changing there for a an Avanti or TPE train direct to Glasgow Central; This would always be the case anyway but much more so at the moment given the paucity of Scotrail Edinburgh/Glasgow trains on Sundays.
DanNCL
Established Member
Ah I see, that makes much more sense, thanks for the clarification!
221129
Established Member
No they weren't.
DanNCL
Established Member
Yes they were, unless Aberdeen and Inverness are suddenly part of the Central Belt or the Lowlands.
221129
Established Member
CrossCountry and Caledonian Sleepers all ran services between Edinburgh and The Northern parts of Scotland on Sunday.
DanNCL
Established Member
I thought you were saying that LNER hadn’t operated north of the Central Belt on Sunday, which of course would have been incorrect as they did. My apologies.
Love some of the anti-passenger sentiment. Just because a TOC might view them as an inconvenience really shouldn't mean that other passengers do!
A train stops, perfectly safely, at a platform for 20 minutes. Of course any passenger in board should be allowed to alight if they wish. "I'm going to Glasgow and this will be quicker." "Sorry, you can't."
I have no idea if any such conversation has taken place on these diversions of course. I do find it odd that a (perhaps hypothetical) passenger might want to get off and not ask if they can.
On the other hand, I have experienced how passenger unfriendly the railway can be, oh so many times. I recall when I was on the last Virgin service into Euston, which had to stop at Harrow and Wealdstone due to a fatality. That's outside the TOC's control, in the same way engineering works (partially) are. However what is completely within their control is to not ignore requests from dozens of passengers to be allowed off in order to be able to at least get to central London before the Underground shut.
"We can't do that, we don't stop here."
"You are stopped here."
"I'm not allowed to..."
etc.
All the staff disappeared. After yet more time I and a few other passengers decided it was time to insist. We went to the kitchen and found staff.
"Can you please let us off"
"I'm sorry but I'm not allowed..."
"We've been polite, if you don't open that door I am"
And lo and behold 390s, unsurprisingly, can have a local door opened.
The sort of thing that really endears people to rail travel.
A train stops, perfectly safely, at a platform for 20 minutes. Of course any passenger in board should be allowed to alight if they wish. "I'm going to Glasgow and this will be quicker." "Sorry, you can't."
I have no idea if any such conversation has taken place on these diversions of course. I do find it odd that a (perhaps hypothetical) passenger might want to get off and not ask if they can.
On the other hand, I have experienced how passenger unfriendly the railway can be, oh so many times. I recall when I was on the last Virgin service into Euston, which had to stop at Harrow and Wealdstone due to a fatality. That's outside the TOC's control, in the same way engineering works (partially) are. However what is completely within their control is to not ignore requests from dozens of passengers to be allowed off in order to be able to at least get to central London before the Underground shut.
"We can't do that, we don't stop here."
"You are stopped here."
"I'm not allowed to..."
etc.
All the staff disappeared. After yet more time I and a few other passengers decided it was time to insist. We went to the kitchen and found staff.
"Can you please let us off"
"I'm sorry but I'm not allowed..."
"We've been polite, if you don't open that door I am"
And lo and behold 390s, unsurprisingly, can have a local door opened.
The sort of thing that really endears people to rail travel.
Is there even a ticket that will let you do that now?
I completely agree that, from a passenger perspective, it's poor. But LNER were left with little alternative in the circumstances of the block; there simply isn't the spare capacity in and around Newcastle to stable and fuel loads of sets at places other than Heaton. It's somewhat of a miracle that sufficient alternatives were found for Northern and TPE.
Anything that isn't Edinburgh to London Terminals. Though, of course, this ridiculous situation should never have arisen - rerouting fares via Newcastle has resulted in quite a lot of fastest journeys being removed, particularly during disruption or planned engineering works such as this.
Particularly Northern as that's home base for all their units in the North East. They can stable in a few places (like Darlington) but that's just for cleaning and I think filling water tanks and in some places not even that!
Indeed, although i suspect this is a small number by comparison.
All in the name of "simplification" of course. Nothing to do with petty quarreling between operators more focused on profit than customer service. And nobody to pull them up on it either so it goes on.
I think some Darlington units can (or did) go to Tees Yard for fuel. Unsure if that was a trial or still happens.
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