Wi-fi on trains

[Merseysider]

Always used to find LNR/WMT’s login process convoluted and irritating, and often wouldn’t bother.

CrossCountry’s wifi on the other hand remembers my email address and has pre-ticked all the right boxes; it literally just needs an extra tap on the T&C box before I’m connected.

Three is my provider but their coverage on the Brum-Manc leg is atrocious

Would like to see wifi on the new Merseyrail trains, no idea if there will be, but it’d make email etc a lot easier whilst underground between Hamilton Square and Liverpool Central.

 

[apinnard]

EMR’s WiFi on the 222’s is cack. My old 56.6 modem and phone line was faster. The LTE and WiFi kit on that fleet must be coming up for ten years old.

 

[Purple Orange]

The WiFi on trains tends to be awful. I use Northern, TPE and Avanti mostly and all of them have awful WiFi provision. On Metrolink and the free buses in Manchester, I’ve had no problem with connection either. This really shouldn’t be a difficult problem to solve for our railway operators.

 

[Dai Corner]

The WiFi on trains tends to be awful. I use Northern, TPE and Avanti mostly and all of them have awful WiFi provision. On Metrolink and the free buses in Manchester, I’ve had no problem with connection either. This really shouldn’t be a difficult problem to solve for our railway operators.

The problem being that mobile coverage in city streets is usually excellent but it can vary considerably in the rural areas, deep cuttings and tunnels trains tend to travel through.

 

[Carlisle]

The WiFi on trains tends to be awful. I use Northern,

Do many of Northern’s 150s 156s or 158s even have WiFi yet? ,I’ve not seen it advertised on any I’ve been on recently.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

On Metrolink and the free buses in Manchester, I’ve had no problem with connection either.

Didn't Metrolink switch off their free wi-fi last year?

 

[Purple Orange]

Didn't Metrolink switch off their free wi-fi last year?

I’ve only used it twice since the pandemic started so perhaps they have, but when it is on, it actually works as you would expect it to work.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2021 ==

Do many of Northern’s 150s 156s or 158s even have WiFi yet? ,I’ve not seen it advertised on any I’ve been on recently.

I’m not sure, it’s a case of 323s, 319s, 331s, 769s round my way. Although some 150s turn up. They also manage the WiFi at stations, which is also rubbish.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2021 ==

The problem being that mobile coverage in city streets is usually excellent but it can vary considerably in the rural areas, deep cuttings and tunnels trains tend to travel through

It shouldn’t be a problem in urban areas, plus it has worked before in rural settings. Therefore it tells me it really poor infrastructure on our trains.

 

[choochoochoo]

I think given the recent announcement by 3, we are also forgetting that our from overseas passengers may not be able to get mobile internet without significant cost.

I know when I'm on holiday, I'm always looking for free wi-fi.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The only times I really rely on train WiFi is when travelling on cross country because the damn voyagers are faraday cages!! Otherwise its nearly always better to use mobile data given I have unlimited 4g / 5g on my phone.

 

[stwales]

Back in the early 2000's I was involved in a DTI grant bid to provide wired networking on trains, using line side beaconing posts. Our partners were Porterbrook and SWT. We lost to a bid, which was going to provide a highway internet system, I wonder how it went

 

[gallafent]

The WiFi on trains tends to be awful. I use Northern, TPE and Avanti mostly and all of them have awful WiFi provision. On Metrolink and the free buses in Manchester, I’ve had no problem with connection either. This really shouldn’t be a difficult problem to solve for our railway operators.

I agree, it's mostly dreadful. Chiltern's seems to work well, though. As does that on both my local bus operators, same experience as you there too. I /think/ that the system on the GWR IETs was OK too, though it's been so long since I've been on one (and they don't have metallised windows so cellular reception is generally fine), that I can't actually remember.

 

[jon0844]

Back in the early 2000's I was involved in a DTI grant bid to provide wired networking on trains, using line side beaconing posts. Our partners were Porterbrook and SWT. We lost to a bid, which was going to provide a highway internet system, I wonder how it went

I assume that was the WiMax based system that Southern used from Victoria to Brighton, and I think Virgin (WC) was also in the process of installing (not sure if they ever did?). Wasn't Heathrow Express done that way too?

Now it's a more simple 4G based setup, using multiple SIMs (EE and Vodafone I think) which may well be upgraded to 5G in due course, given that EE and Vodafone are rolling out 5G at a fairly rapid pace (with 2022 seeing some major improvements on EE in particular thanks to 700MHz 5G). I find the service on GTR and Avanti (since they upgraded their system) and others to be fairly good, although the WCML seems to have a lot of coverage blackspots.

There is also work to fully 5G-enable London to Brighton and I assume other routes, as well as tunnels, which will help users directly (using their smartphone or LTE/NR enabled laptop/tablet) and through the use of Wi-Fi with an onboard system. You want a Wi-Fi 5 or 6 based access point if possible to ensure the best possible connection to the local onboard server, which may also deliver multimedia content and provide things like onboard at-seat ordering etc.

 

[Carlisle]

I assume that was the WiMax based system that Southern used from Victoria to Brighton, and I think Virgin (WC) was also in the process of installing (not sure if they ever did?).

Virgin (WC) started installing WI-FI on their Pendilinos from 2009

 

[1D54]

EMR’s WiFi on the 222’s is cack. My old 56.6 modem and phone line was faster. The LTE and WiFi kit on that fleet must be coming up for ten years old.

But a damn sight better than EMR Regional and Connect which provides ziltch!

 

[gallafent]

As does that on both my local bus operators, same experience as you there too.

… until recently, at which point Stagecoach Oxfordshire has switched off the WiFi, citing the high cost of providing it and the income hit they have taken with reduced passenger numbers of late. Perhaps the time has come for those that want to use high-speed cellular data simply to pay their mobile network operator to provide it for them instead. In all circumstances except when on a Voyager, this is completely fine from my perspective. If Voyagers ran LTE femtocells instead of WiFi access points, this would be fine for me too.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

For the most part, the need for WiFi on trains has been overtaken by the advent of unlimited 4G/5G mobile deals- outside of overseas visitors or passengers on Voyagers.

Certainly the promised free WiFi on TPE is usually not working in my experience (and when it is, it drops out frequently) and the only trains I travel on semi-regularly with reliable WiFi are the Northern electric units in Yorkshire. Even then, the speeds are usually no better than 4G.

 

[Carlisle]

… until recently, at which point Stagecoach Oxfordshire has switched off the WiFi, citing the high cost of providing it and the income hit they have taken with reduced passenger numbers of late.

It’s my understanding many of those Bus WI-FI schemes were installed with the support of the local council, whose funding has presumably been severely reduced or ceased altogether.

 

[jon0844]

It’s my understanding many of those Bus WI-FI schemes were installed with the support of the local council, whose funding has presumably been severely reduced or ceased altogether.

Whereas a train can have small windows, perhaps with solar reflecting film on the glass, and many other factors to impact a signal inside - giving an advantage to a roof mounted antenna (especially more than one on a long train, so you can retain coverage in many tunnels), I really don't see how or why Wi-Fi on a bus seemed worth investing in by anyone.

I'd certainly rather councils invested in being able to keep earlier/later buses running, rather than cutting services to a point where commuters likely can't use many buses at all, and it ends up being a service for pensioners and school kids.

It's the same with power points on buses (I get long distance services, which are more likely coaches but not always) when they were fitted with rather pathetic 5W charging speeds that would hardly charge anything at all on a 10-15 minute bus ride.

I wonder if any bus companies have ever been asked to show how many users log on to the Wi-Fi on a bus, and how much they use. I guess they can't really monitor the charging bit.

As time goes on and the DfT/Network Rail and cellular operators continue to invest in coverage for railway lines, including tunnels, I think Wi-Fi will become even less necessary on trains too. ALL operators offer unlimited data now, and the lower plans now have pretty generous allowances of between 20-200GB that is ample for those who may use Wi-Fi at work and home (although I use mobile data a lot of that time too).

 

[36270k]

Wifi has been working fine on all the Anglia 745 / 755's that I have travelled on recently.
Laptop has picked up a full strength signal.

 

[jon0844]

Wifi has been working fine on all the Anglia 745 / 755's that I have travelled on recently.
Laptop has picked up a full strength signal.

You should always get a good signal, or else the placement of the access points is flawed. That is just the connection from laptop to the onboard equipment.

Out of interest, do you know if you were connected on 2.4 or 5GHz and Wi-Fi 4, 5 or 6?

I'd hope at the very least Wi-Fi 5 for a new train, as this would make a big difference. Plus 2.4GHz at, say, 20MHz would limit your throughput from the get-go.

 

[WatcherZero]

Didn't Metrolink switch off their free wi-fi last year?

Yes, the contract with their provider was up and since it was essential workers only on vehicles and a big operating deficit from lost passenger revenue it was an easy cost saving not to replace the ISP.

The infrastructure is all operator owned as it piggybacks on their own trackside fibre and wireless communications, the cost is the internet bandwidth.

 

[TUC]

While you may have bars to indicate WiFi signal, that WiFi may not currently be talking to the internet, or may not have sufficient bandwith capacity to give you the service you require.

While some operators have used Covid as an excuse, some have attempted to improve their offering. However, connection and bandwith will still be limiting factors.

Just what type of Covid-related excuse have TOCs used for the lack of wifi?

 

[Hadders]

I really don't see the need for WiFi on trains these days. Even the Moorgate tunnels seems to have a mobile signal these days.

 

[Skie]

I really don't see the need for WiFi on trains these days. Even the Moorgate tunnels seems to have a mobile signal these days.

It can really help with battery life. With a reliable Wi-Fi connection and an access point only a few feet away your phone has to do less work maintaining a decent cellular connection as it moves at speed between towers.

A femtocell (basically a mini phone mast) on board would also help.

Its utterly pointless in busses though, unless they’ve suddenly achieved 125mph running.

 

[Nicholas43]

I'm with giffgaff PAYG: top up £10 every 12 months or so, to use on the rare occasions when there's no WiFi included with my train (or bus) ticket (or coffee). (Nothing is ever free!)

 

[driverd]

I'll caveat this whole post with the warning that I am not an especially "tech-savy" person, so the finer details may well be lost on me - however - a family friend was a consultant to one of the contractors who fitted out the railway network with GSMR. In particular, his role was to do with optimal mast siting and power supply to the shore based system.

In a conversation with him, much like this one, he was saying how GSMR had the potential to provide essentially office broadband speeds to trains, nationwide, in tunnels/remote areas etc. Would require an upgrade that would apparently not be too cheap, but the potential is there. Someone will probably have to explain the upgrade required!

Seems to me, if the industry is serious about providing conditions for people to work from the train (which seems an important priority to business travellers and commuters), this level of Internet access is far more desirable than a little box of sim cards that connects up to 70 or so users via conventional mobile networks. As the OP states, as things stand, I find phone data far more reliable than train WiFi.

 

[TUC]

I really don't see the need for WiFi on trains these days. Even the Moorgate tunnels seems to have a mobile signal these days.

What a very London-centric comment. Tried getting a mobile signal between York-Darlington?

 

[Aictos]

What a very London-centric comment. Tried getting a mobile signal between York-Darlington?

Indeed because you may get a signal in some areas doesn't mean it applies everywhere in layman's terms a one size fits all doesn't work at all.

For example, between Higham and Rainham, mobile data is poor because of the number of tunnels including Strood which is the longest tunnel on the line in question I believe.

So I agree with @TUC it is very naive to say that well I don't need WiFi here so it must apply everywhere.

 

[antharro]

Given that the onboard wifi takes its signal from the mobile networks, I think I'd rather see trains equipped with extenders for the mobile networks. Although it would be neat to see that complimented with wifi that gets its connections from multiple networks, so that (for example) folks who are on Vodafone can use the wifi instead when the train is on an area where Vodafone has no signal but EE has strong signal.

 

[driverd]

Given that the onboard wifi takes its signal from the mobile networks, I think I'd rather see trains equipped with extenders for the mobile networks. Although it would be neat to see that complimented with wifi that gets its connections from multiple networks, so that (for example) folks who are on Vodafone can use the wifi instead when the train is on an area where Vodafone has no signal but EE has strong signal.

My understanding is thats essentially how it works now. The draw back is, each carriage is essentially "hot-spotting" all users via, potentially, one sim.