Bad first time experience travelling on rail replacement bus

[miklcct]

Today I went to Wales for the first time ever in my life. The final legs on my journey into Wales involve a Transport of Wales service from Birmingham New Street to Machynlleth, then continue on a rail replacement bus to Penhelig. I returned the same way.

I arrived Machynlleth without incident, where the announcement told us to change to a replacement bus to Pwllheli. I left the train, saw a coach at the station car park, and boarded it. The coach showed a headcode (in the format of 1A50) and the operator Transport for Wales, but no destination was shown. Other passengers also did so. On the timetable, there was only one replacement service at the time I was there.

The coach started and ran on the expected route duplicating the Cambrian Coast Line. However, it drove past Penhelig without stopping (the coach doesn't have stop buttons like buses do). I immediately told the conductor on board and told him I wanted Penhelig, and please stop at Aberdovey to let me off. The conductor told the driver to let me get off at Aberdovey and told me the coach was expected to run non stop and I was supposed to get on a minibus. The driver told me to wait on the opposite side of the road for a minibus to carry me back to Penhelig, and I told him I would walk to my destination directly (as it is mid-way between two stations). I tried to ask the driver where I should take the replacement bus back for the return journey, and I didn't got clear response. He told me something like the minibus will pick up there (on the main road) and won't go to the station itself. Afterwards, the minibus noticed me while passing through and horned at me, and I told the driver I didn't need this anymore.

So effectively I was overcarried on the outbound trip and only got off when I told the conductor to stop the coach, where in reality the one replacement bus service was run by a non-stop coach and a stopping minibus.

In the return journey, I decided to return from Penhelig. The main road there is just outside the station and the Transport for Wales website does show the replacement bus is in the station entrance on the main road. The scheduled time was 13:29 and after buying some fish and chips I ran to the station and got to the entrance 5 minutes before the scheduled time. The notices at the entrance showed the line is closed and replacement buses run, with a timetable. However, there were absolutely no signs on where the replacement bus stop is, and as the station is unstaffed it was impossible to find staff assistance.

I returned to the road at 13:26 and at the same moment a minibus passed by. The driver apparently recognised me and stopped the minibus immediately, asked me where I wanted to go and told me to get on, and he drove off immediately 3 minutes ahead of schedule.

The driver was friendly and on the trip, I asked why I had to take a minibus instead of a coach. He then explained everything. He told that the big coach usually runs late so a minibus is used to carry passengers for smaller stations such that they can arrive the station on time to catch the train, and to improve punctuality the drivers are instructed to pick up and drop off on the main road instead of entering the station, except at a few big stations. If the coach does run late, the train will be gone and a spare coach will carry the affected passengers to Shrewsbury.

I got to the station on time and the train arrived on time. But it was held for 3 additional minutes for the coach to time.

This is so bad passenger experience where there is no instructions and no help basically taking rail replacement services.

In contrast, when I was in Hong Kong, if a rail replacement service needs to be run because of disruption, the staff puts out huge prominent pink posters all the way from the station to the replacement bus stop, hand out posters showing map of replacement bus stop and alternate transport, guides passengers to either the replacement bus or alternative railway lines, and does crowd control at the bus stop. (and all replacement services run free of charge even in case of planned closure, because it's considered the train company's fault failing to provide train service)

If it is a planned closure, in addition to all the above, it also went as far as sticking the permanent destination over with the temporary destination, even when the closure was a few days only and heavily publicised on news and in all the stations in form of posters and automatic announcements every few minutes, which was criticized as not environmental friendly.

Here, the customer service is so bad which I really feel it can put off passengers using trains, although most residents there drive anyways as it's a rural area and the train can only run at 80 km/h the most in that part of the country. The effect here will be to put VISITORS off going there once they have encountered bad experience using rail replacement bus, and then find out that they need to use a rail replacement bus because the line is closed, where visitor money is desperately needed to improve the economy there.

 

[30907]

I arrived Machynlleth without incident, where the announcement told us to change to a replacement bus to Pwllheli. I left the train, saw a coach at the station car park, and boarded it. The coach showed a headcode (in the format of 1A50) and the operator Transport for Wales, but no destination was shown. Other passengers also did so. On the timetable, there was only one replacement service at the time I was there.

How strange - the TfW and NRE Journey planners clearly show two separate services, admittedly leaving at the same time.

The coach started and ran on the expected route duplicating the Cambrian Coast Line. However, it drove past Penhelig without stopping (the coach doesn't have stop buttons like buses do). I immediately told the conductor on board and told him I wanted Penhelig, and please stop at Aberdovey to let me off. The conductor told the driver to let me get off at Aberdovey and told me the coach was expected to run non stop and I was supposed to get on a minibus. The driver told me to wait on the opposite side of the road for a minibus to carry me back to Penhelig, and I told him I would walk to my destination directly (as it is mid-way between two stations). I tried to ask the driver where I should take the replacement bus back for the return journey, and I didn't got clear response. He told me something like the minibus will pick up there (on the main road) and won't go to the station itself.

Seem clear enough to me, though obviously the driver of the express coach wasn't particularly au fait with the minibus stops.

I decided to return from Penhelig. The main road there is just outside the station and the Transport for Wales website does show the replacement bus is in the station entrance on the main road. ... I returned to the road at 13:26 and at the same moment a minibus passed by. The driver apparently recognised me and stopped the minibus immediately, asked me where I wanted to go and told me to get on, and he drove off immediately 3 minutes ahead of schedule.

Welcome to the more rural parts of the country, where - as you observed - bus stop signs are not always provided and drivers are used to stopping for people who are obviously waiting. Though s/he shouldn't have left before time.

To be fair, as there's a public bus service there, I would have expected the stop to be marked in some way.

The driver was friendly and on the trip, I asked why I had to take a minibus instead of a coach. He then explained everything. He told that the big coach usually runs late so a minibus is used to carry passengers for smaller stations such that they can arrive the station on time to catch the train, and to improve punctuality the drivers are instructed to pick up and drop off on the main road instead of entering the station, except at a few big stations. If the coach does run late, the train will be gone and a spare coach will carry the affected passengers to Shrewsbury.

How kind of him/her - they could have just said that it's in the timetable.

In contrast, when I was in Hong Kong, if a rail replacement service needs to be run because of disruption, the staff puts out huge prominent pink posters all the way from the station to the replacement bus stop, hand out posters showing map of replacement bus stop and alternate transport, guides passengers to either the replacement bus or alternative railway lines, and does crowd control at the bus stop.

An excellent idea in that context. Meanwhile, how many passengers approximately were changing at Machynlleth to require such arrangements?

This is so bad passenger experience where there is no instructions and no help basically taking rail replacement services.

Are you saying there was no member of staff present at Machynlleth whom you could have asked? Or even the coach driver?

The effect here will be to put VISITORS off going there once they have encountered bad experience using rail replacement bus, and then find out that they need to use a rail replacement bus because the line is closed, where visitor money is desperately needed to improve the economy there.

Maybe that's why Network Rail waited till the end of the peak tourist season - the best in decades apparently - and inconvenienced the regular all-year users (mainly school children) instead.

There are plenty of examples where RRB services don't run satisfactorily - frankly I am not sure this was one. Other very reports on this forum suggest the service runs smoothly, though obviously this was not your experience.

That said, I hope you find the opportunity to spend more than a couple of hours in the delightful town of Aberdyfi - I stayed in the area a couple of months back and thoroughly commend it, especially once the bridge repairs are done.

 

[miklcct]

How strange - the TfW and NRE Journey planners clearly show two separate services, admittedly leaving at the same time.

I only saw a coach there and couldn't see a minibus. Also, I might have overlooked the timetable because I have never seen anywhere having two departures at the same station with the same destination at the same time. If European / Chinese style train ID is publicised, this problem will not appear as I will look at the correct number shown at the front of the.

Seem clear enough to me, though obviously the driver of the express coach wasn't particularly au fait with the minibus stops.

Welcome to the more rural parts of the country, where - as you observed - bus stop signs are not always provided and drivers are used to stopping for people who are obviously waiting. Though s/he shouldn't have left before time.

To be fair, as there's a public bus service there, I would have expected the stop to be marked in some way.

There are a few marked bus stops in the village, but the location outside Penhelig railway station is unmarked.

How kind of him/her - they could have just said that it's in the timetable.

An excellent idea in that context. Meanwhile, how many passengers approximately were changing at Machynlleth to require such arrangements?

There were approximately 5 passengers when I got on the coach to the coast in the morning, and only 2 passengers back on the minibus in the afternoon.

Are you saying there was no member of staff present at Machynlleth whom you could have asked? Or even the coach driver?

There were definitely staff guiding passengers to the rail replacement coach, but it was never obvious to me that there would be two vehicles heading for the same destination with different scheduled stops, when I could only see a coach and all passengers got on that coach.

Maybe that's why Network Rail waited till the end of the peak tourist season - the best in decades apparently - and inconvenienced the regular all-year users (mainly school children) instead.

There are plenty of examples where RRB services don't run satisfactorily - frankly I am not sure this was one. Other very reports on this forum suggest the service runs smoothly, though obviously this was not your experience.

That said, I hope you find the opportunity to spend more than a couple of hours in the delightful town of Aberdyfi - I stayed in the area a couple of months back and thoroughly commend it, especially once the bridge repairs are done.

My original plan was to stay a night there, but unfortunately I failed to find any accommodation available (all were sold out) so I ended up booking a hostel at Birmingham and only travel up there in the morning for the race only.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I only saw a coach there and couldn't see a minibus. Also, I might have overlooked the timetable because I have never seen anywhere having two departures at the same station with the same destination at the same time.

Very common with rail replacement buses to have a fast and a slow leaving at the same time.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I have never seen anywhere having two departures at the same station with the same destination at the same time.

Very common with rail replacement buses to have a fast and a slow leaving at the same time.

In the past, when there's been various rail replacement buses operating on the Brighton Main Line (to the South of Three Bridges) there have been two buses setting off to Brighton from Three Bridges at more or less the exact same time. One an "express" which sets off down the main A23 straight to Brighton, and the other bus one that calls at all the temporarily closed railway stations along the way; i.e. Balcombe, Haywards Heath, Wivelsfield, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Preston Park and finally Brighton, thus taking much longer.

Occasionally the bus to Brighton (certainly the express one) will still prove to have been quicker than travelling via train on the alternative Arun Valley route between Three Bridges and Brighton.

 

[30907]

I only saw a coach there and couldn't see a minibus. Also, I might have overlooked the timetable because I have never seen anywhere having two departures at the same station with the same destination at the same time.

There were definitely staff guiding passengers to the rail replacement coach, but it was never obvious to me that there would be two vehicles heading for the same destination with different scheduled stops, when I could only see a coach and all passengers got on that coach.

And as a result you had the "bad experience" of the coach making a special stop. Sounds like good customer service to me, and very little inconvenience to yourself.

 

[miklcct]

Very common with rail replacement buses to have a fast and a slow leaving at the same time.

There were no signages at all showing that there were two different kinds of vehicles, fast and slow. A poster showing that a coach calls at major stations (with station names listed) and a minibus calls at all stations at the exit to the car park where buses are boarded will be sufficient. It is never obvious to someone new to the area that a fast and a slow leave at the same time, when the itinerary on the booking app does not alert me that there is another departure from the same station to the same destination on the same time by the same operator but does not call at the stop I am travelling to.


A better practice will be, as stated above, use a "train" number like everywhere else in Europe or China that can be used to distinguish exactly such cases.

 

[30907]

There were no signages at all showing that there were two different kinds of vehicles, fast and slow. A poster showing that a coach calls at major stations (with station names listed) and a minibus calls at all stations at the exit to the car park where buses are boarded will be sufficient.

I must say I am surprised there is no timetable or other information there. That is poor.

It is never obvious to someone new to the area that a fast and a slow leave at the same time, when the itinerary on the booking app does not alert me that there is another departure from the same station to the same destination on the same time by the same operator but does not call at the stop I am travelling to.

Why should it? It doesn't tell you the destination of the bus at all.

Incidentally, even if we used train numbers - which is another issue often discussed here - RRBs would carry the number of "their" train, which doesn't help in this situation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must say I am surprised there is no timetable or other information there. That is poor.

Some have argued that not using the bus's destination equipment properly is a breach of PSVAR. Perhaps a test case is needed.

Why should it? It doesn't tell you the destination of the bus at all.

Incidentally, even if we used train numbers - which is another issue often discussed here - RRBs would carry the number of "their" train, which doesn't help in this situation.

RRBs would have their own which would appear on the planner.

 

[The exile]

The notices at the entrance showed the line is closed and replacement buses run, with a timetable. However, there were absolutely no signs on where the replacement bus stop is, and as the station is unstaffed it was impossible to find staff assistance.

Can't comment on the local intermediates on the Cambrian Coast, but those on the Conwy Valley line (same operator - admittedly rather more frequent reliance on RRBs) have large posters at the stations not only telling you that rail replacement buses do not stop at the station (and explaining where they do) but actually have a photograph of the bus stop to wait at (or the significant building to wait outside ) - with the clear instruction that if you're going the other way you wait on the other side of the road. Penhelig isn't by any chance one of the stations where no trains have been stopping since March 2020, is it by any chance?

 

[221129]

There were definitely staff guiding passengers to the rail replacement coach, but it was never obvious to me that there would be two vehicles heading for the same destination with different scheduled stops, when I could only see a coach and all passengers got on that coach.

So there were staff, but instead of asking you just followed the crowd?

 

[30907]

Penhelig isn't by any chance one of the stations where no trains have been stopping since March 2020, is it by any chance?

Possibly, but that is no longer the case, and the RRminiuses are stopping at all stations.

 

[miklcct]

So there were staff, but instead of asking you just followed the crowd?

There were staff, but there were no notices nor announcements.

 

[yorksrob]

RRB services are are a notorious pain in the arse and there is a reason why most discerning passengers avoid them like the plague.

At large interchange stations, you do tend to get a designated area for RRB's and a person with a clip board who will usually tell you which bus to get on (Leeds is very good for this). Small wayside stations on the other hand, it's often a case of wantering up to the main road and waiting.

 

[Bald Rick]

Small wayside stations on the other hand, it's often a case of wantering up to the main road and waiting.

... and asking the driver, of course.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There were staff, but there were no notices nor announcements.

I do find it bad that they don't put the details of the bus on a sign on the front.

 

[yorksrob]

... and asking the driver, of course.

Assuming you can find where the bus is supposed to stop !

 

[Starmill]

I'm surprised that the fast service even passed through Aberdovey. They usually run non-stop via the Dolgellau bypass between Machynlleth and Barmouth.

 

[miklcct]

I'm surprised that the fast service even passed through Aberdovey. They usually run non-stop via the Dolgellau bypass between Machynlleth and Barmouth.

It stops at Tywyn so it must go through Aberdovey.

 

[Kite159]

RRB services are are a notorious pain in the arse and there is a reason why most discerning passengers avoid them like the plague.

At large interchange stations, you do tend to get a designated area for RRB's and a person with a clip board who will usually tell you which bus to get on (Leeds is very good for this). Small wayside stations on the other hand, it's often a case of wantering up to the main road and waiting.

Agreed there

Queues can start building at the big interchange stations when either planned buses don't show up or trains get delayed so the bus goes before the connecting train arrives. So you end up with more passengers waiting than the bus can carry so it's a bit of a fight to board to avoid getting left behind.

Or when the buses arrive but for whatever reason don't go to the area they were meant to go with staff hiding away.

Guildford on Sunday evening was just chaotic. I felt sorry for any passengers who wanted the 19;50 fast Andover bus ending up on a stopper Andover bus which missed the connection at Andover to the last Exeter train due to roadworks.

 

[30907]

I'm surprised that the fast service even passed through Aberdovey. They usually run non-stop via the Dolgellau bypass between Machynlleth and Barmouth.

Likewise, it would be half an hour faster.
But I suppose that would mean using a full size bus through Tywyn at certain times of day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Likewise, it would be half an hour faster.
But I suppose that would mean using a full size bus through Tywyn at certain times of day.

There would not be a problem with using a full sized bus through Tywyn, the road is plenty wide enough, and indeed bus services already operate on it.

 

[30907]

There would not be a problem with using a full sized bus through Tywyn, the road is plenty wide enough, and indeed bus services already operate on it.

As does the RRB!
I didn't explain properly: a full sized bus would be needed in place of the minibus to carry the passengers on that section. So 2 buses on each departure instead of 1 and a minibus.
I presume the current arrangement is more economical - I don't think a minibus is specifically required to access the halts, as I assume it stops on the main road at places like Talybont.

 

[Snow1964]

A new extension has been granted, but now 4 part rules

1. TOCs must source and use PSVAR compliant vehicles wherever possible in the first instance, and only use a non-compliant vehicle that has been granted a special authorisation when all other compliant options have been exhausted.
2. When no PSVAR compliant vehicle is available, TOCs must provide alternative accessible transport for disabled passengers which offers the same levels of service as those for non-disabled passengers with no detriment (for example on comfort, safety and waiting times) to those passengers.
3. Arrangements must be made in advance during planned engineering works to ensure such alternative accessible transport is readily available, to avoid any unnecessary and extended waiting periods for those passengers who require it – particularly if they have requested a wheelchair space or passenger assistance.
4. The industry will continue to work with the Office of Rail and Road (ORR) during this period of special authorisations, and will provide data on the level of compliance with PSVAR for Rail Replacement services, the use of non-PSVAR-compliant vehicles, the number and types of alternatives provided (e.g. taxis), and the number of complaints that are received in respect of TOCs where the alternatives provided have fallen short of expectations of safety, comfort and timing.

number 2, any alternatives should not have longer waiting times is interesting, does that mean if a non compliant bus is provided and a taxi, and the taxi arrives late, then bus can’t leave until taxi is ready

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1022512/letter-to-rdg-on-psvar-and-special-authorisations.pdf

I had intended to post in rail replacement buses thread, but it is not open for further replies, even though this seems relevant, but happy for a moderator to move it if thread is reopened.

 

[Bletchleyite]

2 would seem, sensibly, to allow for several vehicles operating at once, but only one of them to be accessible. Which makes sense, you could use an Optare Solo plus a couple of coaches, say.

The comfort one is interesting, it has come up on here several times that wheelchair users find a taxi less comfortable than a bus, so 2 appears to rule that out?