Autumn refresh for GWR Class 165/166 Turbos

[cactustwirly]

Last time I was on a turbo was Cosham to Southampton, The aircon was broken in the coach I was in, and the guard tried to open the hopper windows but they were jammed. She mumbled something about how knackered all the trains on that line were, and said that one of the other coaches had slightly better aircon. I wasn't too hot so I stayed put, but then when we were just about to depart Fareham, the ear-splitting door close beeps carried on going after the doors had closed and the train had left, and I ended up getting the guard, and it wasn't until about Woolston that the issue was sorted, but the door was locked out of use.

By contrast I was on a 158 from Barnham to Southampton yesterday, aircon was just right, and although we were held up by a late stopper, the ambiance inside those units is so lovely that I didn't mind too much. The only thing, of course, is that loading and unloading on a 2-car 158 takes an eternity!

Bear in mind the 158s have had an easier life and have been refurbished recently.
The 166s were last refurbished properly in 2010, plus they were worked very hard in the Thames valley before moving over

 

[RPI]

Last time I was on a turbo was Cosham to Southampton, The aircon was broken in the coach I was in, and the guard tried to open the hopper windows but they were jammed. She mumbled something about how knackered all the trains on that line were, and said that one of the other coaches had slightly better aircon. I wasn't too hot so I stayed put, but then when we were just about to depart Fareham, the ear-splitting door close beeps carried on going after the doors had closed and the train had left, and I ended up getting the guard, and it wasn't until about Woolston that the issue was sorted, but the door was locked out of use.

By contrast I was on a 158 from Barnham to Southampton yesterday, aircon was just right, and although we were held up by a late stopper, the ambiance inside those units is so lovely that I didn't mind too much. The only thing, of course, is that loading and unloading on a 2-car 158 takes an eternity!

You were lucky, I've had more 166's with working Aircon than 158's lately, especially since there has been an effort to repair most of the 166 Aircon of late (notices in the cabs about penguins... if you know, you know), the 158's have had a much easier life too.

 

[southern442]

Bear in mind the 158s have had an easier life and have been refurbished recently.
The 166s were last refurbished properly in 2010, plus they were worked very hard in the Thames valley before moving over

Indeed, although regular passengers will not be nearly as forgiving about these facts of course.

 

[Bluejays]

I'm really interested in seeing the refurb job on these. In an ideal world I'd like to see a light refurb, and then have these trains distributed around the country for shortish commuter routes, they're perfect for that role.


But as they're going to be on the cardiff - pompey route they will need some considerable work to be adequate. As others have mentioned, extra tables and seatback tables should be a must.

I know train planners love a standardised fleet, but I do think there should be a differentiation. If you could do a light tart up job on half the fleet, and keep it for local work. Alongside a real big refurb for the trains that would be used on longer distance work. Think I'm getting a bit pie in the sky there though.

Failing that, they could just try and copy the turbostar interior as closely as possible. The 170s do the jack of all trades role very well indeed

 

[The exile]

I'm really interested in seeing the refurb job on these. In an ideal world I'd like to see a light refurb, and then have these trains distributed around the country for shortish commuter routes, they're perfect for that role.


But as they're going to be on the cardiff - pompey route they will need some considerable work to be adequate. As others have mentioned, extra tables and seatback tables should be a must.

I know train planners love a standardised fleet, but I do think there should be a differentiation. If you could do a light tart up job on half the fleet, and keep it for local work. Alongside a real big refurb for the trains that would be used on longer distance work. Think I'm getting a bit pie in the sky there though.

Failing that, they could just try and copy the turbostar interior as closely as possible. The 170s do the jack of all trades role very well indeed

Unfortunately this is one class of train that can’t be distributed round the country - at least not without a lot of ckearance issues, I believe. That’s unfortunately for those of us in the west, not for the rest of you!

 

[southern442]

Failing that, they could just try and copy the turbostar interior as closely as possible. The 170s do the jack of all trades role very well indeed

Turbostars would've been great for the Pompey-Cardiff route. They are great on the Uckfield Line, for example, and whilst it's not exactly similar, it benefits from the same features the Wessex routes would; a very comfortable seating layout and ambiance for the long journeys, but also generous doorways for large flows of traffic. The Uckfield route's longest journeys are just under 90 minutes so 2+2 seating with tables is very welcome, but equally they need to move large numbers of people from stations like Oxted, East Croydon and London Bridge, and they do both relatively well. The Wessex Line needs this even more; the longest journeys would be 4+ hours, and there are several sections with busy stations that need the larger doorways (as for all their loveliness, trying to get on a 158 at Southampton for example is a shambles).

 

[Kite159]

Turbostars would've been great for the Pompey-Cardiff route. They are great on the Uckfield Line, for example, and whilst it's not exactly similar, it benefits from the same features the Wessex routes would; a very comfortable seating layout and ambiance for the long journeys, but also generous doorways for large flows of traffic. The Uckfield route's longest journeys are just under 90 minutes so 2+2 seating with tables is very welcome, but equally they need to move large numbers of people from stations like Oxted, East Croydon and London Bridge, and they do both relatively well. The Wessex Line needs this even more; the longest journeys would be 4+ hours, and there are several sections with busy stations that need the larger doorways (as for all their loveliness, trying to get on a 158 at Southampton for example is a shambles).

Such a shame the provisional order made for more DMUs at the time the 172s were in production got cancelled by the SRA as "everywhere is getting wires, there will be no need for new DMUs". Something like a 4 coach 172 with the interior layout from a 168/170 would have been good for the route.

 

[JonathanH]

Turbostars would've been great for the Pompey-Cardiff route.

I think that people struggle to get past their views on the air conditioning and seating issues in the 166s relative to Turbostars. In pure volume terms a 166 probably has more space in its main saloon than a Turbostar because the sides don't taper in to the same extent. I would like to think that a 166 could be made good to the level of a 170 or 172 with the right work.

Something like a 4 coach 172 with the interior layout from a 168/170 would have been good for the route.

It would have been too short for peak time loadings (pre March 2020). Even in 158 days there was one service that was strengthened out of Bristol by a 150 as I recall.

 

[D2007wsm]

The 166s may be grubby, but they’re no worse than some of the Sprinters were in before refurbishment. Give them a nice refurb and sort out the seating and aircon issues and they will be fine. I would much rather have one of those in their current condition, when a few years on my local services it was mainly a single 150 and not uncommon for a single 153 to turn up.

I can remember years ago when a 158 I was coming back from Portsmouth on was terminated at Fratton due to it being rammed and so hot. At least with a Turbo there is more standing room than sat at a table with someone’s bottom in your face

 

[Inthewest]

Problem is that obtaining new diesel units now is not a good move given the need to eliminate diesel traction soon. Using 165s/166s now and hoping the technology moves on in the next ten years is preferable to locking in diesel use for the next 35 years.

Or (as someone else has suggested) get some modular Stadler units, with a premise that they'll be converted to battery / hydrogen / whatever at a later date?

 

[JonathanH]

Or get some modular Stadler units, with a premise that they'll be converted to battery / hydrogen / whatever at a later date?

I guess the question is whether GWR (and in turn passengers) can afford the lease costs of such a fleet on top of the higher lease costs for the 80x fleet that has changed the economics of the overall operation.

 

[supervc-10]

In an ideal world, a bunch of 5-car bi-modes with 25kV AC and 700V DC (like the 769s can potentially do) would be be great. Could be mixed in with an order for similar units for SWR to replace the 159s on Waterloo-Exeter, although I think SWR might prefer end doors and GWR the doors at 3rds.

But we don't live in an ideal world. The lease costs would change the operation very significantly and not for the better. Hopefully the Bath-Temple Meads-Severn Tunnel route will be wired, because it makes absolutely no sense for the Swindon-Bath-Bristol route not to be, but again, we don't live in an ideal world. That might change the economics a bit more, but it's still unlikely to happen any time soon. And keeping the Turbos going until that gets wired is probably the best bet for getting bi-modes onto the route for the long-term.

The only other option would be to order something like the 197s, but that I think will lead to the route being stuck with fully diesel traction for decades to come.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I guess the question is whether GWR (and in turn passengers) can afford the lease costs of such a fleet on top of the higher lease costs for the 80x fleet that has changed the economics of the overall operation.

If GA can make a case based on lines such as Sheringham-Norwich and Ipswich-Cambridge then surely Cardiff-Portsmouth and Bristol-Penzance aren’t beyond the realms of possibility for GWR?

 

[Anonymous10]

In an ideal world, a bunch of 5-car bi-modes with 25kV AC and 700V DC (like the 769s can potentially do) would be be great. Could be mixed in with an order for similar units for SWR to replace the 159s on Waterloo-Exeter, although I think SWR might prefer end doors and GWR the doors at 3rds.

But we don't live in an ideal world. The lease costs would change the operation very significantly and not for the better. Hopefully the Bath-Temple Meads-Severn Tunnel route will be wired, because it makes absolutely no sense for the Swindon-Bath-Bristol route not to be, but again, we don't live in an ideal world. That might change the economics a bit more, but it's still unlikely to happen any time soon. And keeping the Turbos going until that gets wired is probably the best bet for getting bi-modes onto the route for the long-term.

The only other option would be to order something like the 197s, but that I think will lead to the route being stuck with fully diesel traction for decades to come.

alternative number 3 take on some of tfw 158s or maybe the 175 fleet preferably 158 though as gwr already have them and use them for the route they are a high spec regional 2 car dmu with 20 sets available enough to make 10 4 car units and all recently refurbished so only need basic touch up to gwr colours of course this couldn't start till 2023 and so these refurbs could still be handy if it was planned but off topic

 

[Parallel]

It would be good if the Turbos could replace some routes that the Class 150s operate on the GWR network in the future. Platform lengths and clearance in some places may be an issue but the 150s can’t go on forever, although GWR’s aren’t bad. I’d imagine the 165s/166s would be well suited to some of the branch lines such as Falmouth and St Ives. A three car Turbo probably has higher capacity than a 4 car 150 used to St Ives in summer. I think metro work for 16x will be sensible in the future, with 158s working the regional routes. TfW’s 158s would be great additions to the fleet as they offer a superior experience to the GWR examples in my opinion!

I’m quite excited to see what will come of the 166s after the refurbishment, I really hope GWR reconfigure the seats to make the units more comfortable.

 

[fgwrich]

It would be good if the Turbos could replace some routes that the Class 150s operate on the GWR network in the future. Platform lengths and clearance in some places may be an issue but the 150s can’t go on forever, although GWR’s aren’t bad. I’d imagine the 165s/166s would be well suited to some of the branch lines such as Falmouth and St Ives. A three car Turbo probably has higher capacity than a 4 car 150 used to St Ives in summer. I think metro work for 16x will be sensible in the future, with 158s working the regional routes. TfW’s 158s would be great additions to the fleet as they offer a superior experience to the GWR examples in my opinion!

I’m quite excited to see what will come of the 166s after the refurbishment, I really hope GWR reconfigure the seats to make the units more comfortable.

Well, it isn't difficult with those Grammer Seats. It's a close call between First ScotRail's Inverness refurbishment and ATWs "Cinderella" 158's for the best DMU refurbishment so far. That bar has been set very high by both TOCs. On the other hand, I'm not impressed by GWRs refurbishment of their 158s - the most annoying feature of it was the moving of the seats to be closer and keeping / reseating with the ex BR Seats.

I know this is diverging the thread from the long overdue refurbishment of these things, but would 165 be gauge compatible with a number of the Cornish Branches, given their extra width? The railways of the Thames Valley being somewhat more generous than the Looe Valley for example.

 

[RPI]

It would be good if the Turbos could replace some routes that the Class 150s operate on the GWR network in the future. Platform lengths and clearance in some places may be an issue but the 150s can’t go on forever, although GWR’s aren’t bad. I’d imagine the 165s/166s would be well suited to some of the branch lines such as Falmouth and St Ives. A three car Turbo probably has higher capacity than a 4 car 150 used to St Ives in summer. I think metro work for 16x will be sensible in the future, with 158s working the regional routes. TfW’s 158s would be great additions to the fleet as they offer a superior experience to the GWR examples in my opinion!

I’m quite excited to see what will come of the 166s after the refurbishment, I really hope GWR reconfigure the seats to make the units more comfortable.

A four car 165 would be perfect for the St Ives branch in summer.

I think you're right though, as much as a love the 150's l, they are starting to look old now, when I say old, I don't mean tatty just old fashioned, if GWR were to obtain the TfW 158's some could be formed into three car sets to make Cardiff-Portsmouth all five cars.

 

[Towers]

A four car 165 would be perfect for the St Ives branch in summer.

I think you're right though, as much as a love the 150's l, they are starting to look old now, when I say old, I don't mean tatty just old fashioned, if GWR were to obtain the TfW 158's some could be formed into three car sets to make Cardiff-Portsmouth all five cars.

Old fashioned you say.... I think you'll find they're rather similar to the shiny new 769s!

 

[Mike Machin]

I think a lot of contributors forget just how old the 'Sprinter/Super-Sprinter/Turbo' fleet is now! Refurbishments along the way have helped to keep them relatively contemporary for a good number of years, but some of the 150s have now been in service for 37 years - that's a long time for any internal-combustion powered vehicle. It means that they are now the same age that the first-generation dmus were in the mid-1990s - smokey, noisy and inefficient, and, for those that haven't been subjected to recent upgrades, clapped-out. Even some of the 158s have now had 31 years in front-line service.

Time moves on and replacement is needed sooner rather than later. In an ideal world, electrification would be the answer, but even if the funds for widespread electrification were to fall out of the 'magic money tree', it would be a couple of decades before we would have a viable joined-up network - look how long it took to unsuccessfully undertake the partial electrification of the GW lines.

Yes, we have to look at emissions, but it with rail accounting for only 2% of trips and 9% of distance travelled by people in the UK in 2019, the overall contribution to CO2 production by diesel passenger trains is relatively low, and it is clear that the Government's agenda is focussing on the electrification of private passenger car fleet.

So, new super high-tech dmus are needed now, and the Class 166 fleet should be put out of its misery as soon as new alternatives (Class 195?) are available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So, new super high-tech dmus are needed now, and the Class 166 fleet should be put out of its misery as soon as new alternatives (Class 195?) are available.

Bi-modes and a cascade of simple DMUs to routes that are not going to be electrified any time soon are a much better idea. Where's Herr Stadler when you need him?

 

[northernbelle]

A four car 165 would be perfect for the St Ives branch in summer.

I think you're right though, as much as a love the 150's l, they are starting to look old now, when I say old, I don't mean tatty just old fashioned, if GWR were to obtain the TfW 158's some could be formed into three car sets to make Cardiff-Portsmouth all five cars.

Agree re: 165s for St Ives. The trouble with 158s on Pompey has often been the dwell times given the high turnover of passengers and end doors. There's definitely a strong case for a Turbostar style train (or a Turbo with a long distance interior fitted...)

The GWR 158s have plenty of life left in them for now and are a decent train for passengers - I'd be keen to see off the Castle sets with any additional 158s that become available - the benefits of fleet standardisation and compatibility on the West services would be useful. The HSTs really are showing their age despite their recent door conversion.

 

[RPI]

Agree re: 165s for St Ives. The trouble with 158s on Pompey has often been the dwell times given the high turnover of passengers and end doors. There's definitely a strong case for a Turbostar style train (or a Turbo with a long distance interior fitted...)

The GWR 158s have plenty of life left in them for now and are a decent train for passengers - I'd be keen to see off the Castle sets with any additional 158s that become available - the benefits of fleet standardisation and compatibility on the West services would be useful. The HSTs really are showing their age despite their recent door conversion.

Yes as much as the nostalgic me wants HST'S to go on forever, they're not a perfect fit in the West Fleet being of fixed formation and must be fuel guzzlers. They are as you say starting to look quite tired too now and with their latest availability issues must be a headache too.

I see your point re the 158's losing time on the pompey but turbo's seem to lose any time saved at stations with their appealing acceleration.

But overall having 5 car turbo's is a vast improvement to what was previously 2 or 3 car 158's with a fair few 150's thrown in for good measure.

 

[Parallel]

I think a lot of contributors forget just how old the 'Sprinter/Super-Sprinter/Turbo' fleet is now! Refurbishments along the way have helped to keep them relatively contemporary for a good number of years, but some of the 150s have now been in service for 37 years - that's a long time for any internal-combustion powered vehicle. It means that they are now the same age that the first-generation dmus were in the mid-1990s - smokey, noisy and inefficient, and, for those that haven't been subjected to recent upgrades, clapped-out. Even some of the 158s have now had 31 years in front-line service.

Time moves on and replacement is needed sooner rather than later. In an ideal world, electrification would be the answer, but even if the funds for widespread electrification were to fall out of the 'magic money tree', it would be a couple of decades before we would have a viable joined-up network - look how long it took to unsuccessfully undertake the partial electrification of the GW lines.

So, new super high-tech dmus are needed now, and the Class 166 fleet should be put out of its misery as soon as new alternatives (Class 195?) are available.

I’m not a huge fan of the 195s I’ve travelled on with Northern, I think they offer quite a poor ride quality. After the 158s/16x retire, tri-mode stock would probably be appropriate for the route as they could run Cardiff to Bath under the wires (in the future, hopefully), diesel from Bath to Southampton and then third rail onwards.

There are definitely many parts of the GWR network that I don’t think will see wires in my lifetime.

I wonder if this will be the last refurbishment the 165s/166s will see in their working life.

The mini-HSTs almost certainly cost a lot of money to run/operate, and I can’t imagine they’re particularly environmentally friendly either.

 

[Wolfie]

This is going speculative, but the Pennine corridor Manchester - York is a candidate for electrification and doing so could displace a good number of 185s with bi-modes.

When the 455s and 456s go for scrap there will be a ton of nice Grammar seats in there that would only need new seat covers...

Re your last para to be clear l assume that you mean SWT/SWR 455s, not Southern...

 

[Class172]

I see your point re the 158's losing time on the pompey but turbo's seem to lose any time saved at stations with their appealing acceleration.

I suppose if the acceleration could be described as gentle then indeed it could be appealing.

 

[RPI]

I suppose if the acceleration could be described as gentle then indeed it could be appealing.

Oh dear haha, appalling, just autocorrected that time too lol

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder for posts of a speculative nature to be made in the Speculative Ideas section please

If anyone would like to create a spin-off thread, you are welcome to do so, and you can post a link to any such thread from here.

But this thread isn't in the speculative section, so we do need to stick to what's actually happening in this thread, please

(If anyone has any questions or feedback for us please contact us directly)

Many thanks

 

[dmu fan]

The accessible toilets are also not known for their reliability due to the tanks filling up, or running out of water, or the sliding doors developing a fault - Though definitely more reliable of the two. It’s not uncommon to find both toilets out of service on the Cardiff to Portsmouth or Gloucester to Weymouth runs.

I agree. Been to Weymouth during summer from Gloucester, on 2x165 down 0740, 1x166 return 1730. One of the 165 toilets failed enroute and people were hopping from the other unit into ours. On return the 166 small toilet out of order and the uat went out at Westbury. On arrival at Bristol the 166 was sent out to severn beach. Hoped for a 158 or even a 150/2 but no.

 

[K.o.R]

Will this refresh also involve actually putting the remaining Turbos into GWR green finally? I saw two FGW-livery turbos pass each other at Cosham the other day!

 

[D2007wsm]

I’m currently on 166208 and apart from the small toilet not working, it isn’t too bad. Yes it’s showing signs of ware and tare, they are hard working units but this one is no worse than the 150/1, 153s and HSTs were when they left/refurbed or even some of the other sprinters by the time they were GWRified.

It’s disappointing that GWR are still locking the First Class sections out of use at both ends. Surely 1 end for staff use would suffice.

I agree with the comments from others, they could do with changing. They are narrow and the lack of arm rests is annoying. They should have come up with a deal with the ROSCOs to obtain the scrapped HST seats to put in these and the 158s, maybe just swapping the headrests for the smaller ones. All of the long distance West non IET stock would have the same standard of seating.