Skelmersdale station proposals & suggestions

[Bletchleyite]

More the car-centric element. How do arrivals into Skelmersdale railway station get to where they want to go if it is all spread out? Or do we assume that people would only use the rail service to leave Skem?

There are very few reasons to go to Skem from outside, so I would say primarily a traffic source, yes.

 

[WatcherZero]

Those figures don't look good. How does this project move forward with this as the starting position?

Yes, looking at the heat map for journeys from Skem, apart from St Helens and Ormskirk the Skelmersdale residents dont really go anywhere.

You could argue its chicken and egg and they dont go anywhere because they dont have travel options but you cant say you will be taking cars off the road by getting x% to modal shift if they arent making those journeys by road either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, looking at the heat map for journeys from Skem, apart from St Helens and Ormskirk the Skelmersdale residents dont really go anywhere.

You could argue its chicken and egg and they dont go anywhere because they dont have travel options but you cant say you will be taking cars off the road by getting x% to modal shift if they arent making those journeys by road either.

It is likely to be strongly regenerative in a town which is very poor with limited employment opportunities for many. That is the value, not removing car journeys.

 

[507020]

It is likely to be strongly regenerative in a town which is very poor with limited employment opportunities for many. That is the value, not removing car journeys.

While the modal shift is important for current congested road traffic flows, rail improvement schemes such as this will always catalyse new rail journeys, whether they are replacing car journeys or as in this case creating entirely new journey opportunities. There is also another opportunity for new rail journeys elsewhere in West Lancashire which you may have heard of.

 

[WatcherZero]

It is likely to be strongly regenerative in a town which is very poor with limited employment opportunities for many. That is the value, not removing car journeys.

What I am saying is there isnt an existing market demand for travel to build off, they will have to build the ridership from scratch.

 

[507020]

What I am saying is there isnt an existing market demand for travel to build off, they will have to build the ridership from scratch.

If the residents of Skelmersdale are keen and actively pushing for a new railway to be built to their town, then clearly there is some intended usage.

 

[childwallblues]

Skelmerdale should have been included as part of Merseyside after all it was set up as a new town to take residents from North Liverpool. It was left in West Lancashire instead,

 

[Bletchleyite]

The same way they do in any other large town: Bus, Taxi or lift from obliging relative/friend.

Don't forget cycling and walking. Skem, like MK, has a decent (but less well known) network of off road paths. It is a fairly standard new town thing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2021 ==

Skelmerdale should have been included as part of Merseyside after all it was set up as a new town to take residents from North Liverpool. It was left in West Lancashire instead,

Yes, I would agree this was an error, similarly not bringing Ormskirk into the Merseyside metropolitan county, being the edge of the commuter zone.

 

[childwallblues]

Don't forget cycling and walking. Skem, like MK, has a decent (but less well known) network of off road paths. It is a fairly standard new town thing.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Sep 2021 ==



Yes, I would agree this was an error, similarly not bringing Ormskirk into the Merseyside metropolitan county, being the edge of the commuter zone.

Merseyrail to me is trying to put right an error made by the government of the day by putting Skelmersdsle bask in Merseyside - on the railway at least.

 

[adrock1976]

Yes, looking at the heat map for journeys from Skem, apart from St Helens and Ormskirk the Skelmersdale residents dont really go anywhere.

You could argue its chicken and egg and they dont go anywhere because they dont have travel options but you cant say you will be taking cars off the road by getting x% to modal shift if they arent making those journeys by road either.

Has there ever been any studies or proposals to reinstate the line that ran Skelmersdale - Rainford Junction - St Helens Central - St Helens Jct?

Or would this be better for trams/tram trains?

 

[The Planner]

Has there ever been any studies or proposals to reinstate the line that ran Skelmersdale - Rainford Junction - St Helens Central - St Helens Jct?

Or would this be better for trams/tram trains?

None, that is another crayonista one. I don't get what that would be for anyway, If you want Manchester you would go via Wigan and Liverpool is the big draw.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Has there ever been any studies or proposals to reinstate the line that ran Skelmersdale - Rainford Junction - St Helens Central - St Helens Jct?

Or would this be better for trams/tram trains?

If you were restricting yourself to reopening closed lines, you'd go for the branch from Ormskirk via Westhead, though that only served what is now called "Old Skem" at the western extreme of the New Town.

 

[adrock1976]

If you were restricting yourself to reopening closed lines, you'd go for the branch from Ormskirk via Westhead, though that only served what is now called "Old Skem" at the western extreme of the New Town.

I had forgot about the Ormskirk direction.

Instead of building rails, maybe a guided busway may be better, similar to Cambridge (as long as it does not get persistently dug up?

See thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ay-be-suitable-for-ormskirk-st-helens.222488/ so as to save clogging this one up too much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I had forgot about the Ormskirk direction.

Instead of building rails, maybe a guided busway may be better, similar to Cambridge (as long as it does not get persistently dug up?

See thread https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ay-be-suitable-for-ormskirk-st-helens.222488/ so as to save clogging this one up too much.

A conventional bus is fine, there is very little congestion.

 

[bramling]

Skelmerdale should have been included as part of Merseyside after all it was set up as a new town to take residents from North Liverpool. It was left in West Lancashire instead,

Yes it almost gives the vibe of dumping Liverpool’s overspill onto Lancashire and being done with it.

Likewise it’s quite remiss for it not to have become part of Merseyrail at the time, given the comparatively short distance from Kirkby. The distance from Liverpool is roughly comparable with Ormskirk.

Of course, things were different then, and it wouldn’t be the only new town where transport doesn’t seem to have been considered beyond the car.

 

[Mikey C]

Yes it almost gives the vibe of dumping Liverpool’s overspill onto Lancashire and being done with it.

Likewise it’s quite remiss for it not to have become part of Merseyrail at the time, given the comparatively short distance from Kirkby. The distance from Liverpool is roughly comparable with Ormskirk.

Of course, things were different then, and it wouldn’t be the only new town where transport doesn’t seem to have been considered beyond the car.

There was also the idea back then of new towns being self contained, so that people would work and socialise within them, rather than regularly travelling to a bigger place. Milton Keynes was also designed like this, as a place for people to work and play, rather than being a commuter town for people who work elsewhere

 

[Bletchleyite]

There was also the idea back then of new towns being self contained, so that people would work and socialise within them, rather than regularly travelling to a bigger place. Milton Keynes was also designed like this, as a place for people to work and play, rather than being a commuter town for people who work elsewhere

Indeed so, and as a result MKC station was a (very successful) afterthought and not part of the original plan.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Indeed so, and as a result MKC station was a (very successful) afterthought and not part of the original plan.

Obviously it helps if there’s a convenient railway running fairly close to the centre, which Skem new town lacks.

 

[507020]

Obviously it helps if there’s a convenient railway running fairly close to the centre, which Skem new town lacks.

Is the Kirkby - Wigan one not fairly close to the centre?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously it helps if there’s a convenient railway running fairly close to the centre, which Skem new town lacks.

True. Had the plan not been to keep it self contained, building the town centre nearer the railway (as per MK and Telford) would have made a lot more sense.

Is the Kirkby - Wigan one not fairly close to the centre?

Not that close, but the cost of a spur is not super prohibitive as it is not that far and there is a bridge and road that can be used for it with minimal disruption.

 

[Pinus contorta]

True. Had the plan not been to keep it self contained, building the town centre nearer the railway (as per MK and Telford) would have made a lot more sense.



Not that close, but the cost of a spur is not super prohibitive as it is not that far and there is a bridge and road that can be used for it with minimal disruption.

Just looking at the OSMap I can't figure out where there is a road and a bridge.

 

[Corriman]

Obviously it helps if there’s a convenient railway running fairly close to the centre, which Skem new town lacks.

Skelmersdale was designated a new town in 1961. The first residents located in 1964. Skelmersdale station was on the the Ormskirk to St Helens line which completely closed down in 1963.
The station was located in what is now referred to as Old Skem, on the west side of the town.

 

[snowball]

Just looking at the OSMap I can't figure out where there is a road and a bridge.

I'm losing count of the number of times I've said this. The spur from the Kirkby-Wigan line would pass under the M58 by the bridge where Whiteledge Road now goes under the motorway, about 1km east of J4. My own belief is that Whiteledge Road could remain open, though others have suggested otherwise. Two or three new road bridges would probably be required to the north of the M58.

 

[507020]

Skelmersdale was designated a new town in 1961. The first residents located in 1964. Skelmersdale station was on the the Ormskirk to St Helens line which completely closed down in 1963.
The station was located in what is now referred to as Old Skem, on the west side of the town.

The original station site in Old Skem would be useless today.

I'm losing count of the number of times I've said this. The spur from the Kirkby-Wigan line would pass under the M58 by the bridge where Whiteledge Road now goes under the motorway, about 1km east of J4. My own belief is that Whiteledge Road could remain open, though others have suggested otherwise. Some other bridges would probably be required to the north of the M58.

The M58 bridge looks like it was built with provision for Whiteledge Road to be dualled, so it probably wouldn’t be necessary to close it, but it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world if it was sacrificed for the sake of a railway.

I make it that the spur would be built from approximately this location, or at the very least visible in the scene from this location, taken from a video I took from a train between Kirkby and Orrell. Does anyone know the location of the wind turbine, as this may help to work out the precise location.

What sort of curve radius are we likely to see built? The ones at Burscough and Heald Green are ~400m and the one at Farington is a bit less. In length, the spur would be less than half a mile more than the one to Manchester Airport. The biggest obstacle is that it could potentially require up to 6.5 miles of redoubling between Fazakerley and Rainford to create the required capacity for a service.

 

[Corriman]

Agreed, a station in Old Skem wouldn't be the ideal location today. However the station was already there when they were planning the town. The new town development stretches well in to Old Skem close to the old station site.
The wind turbine is located at the Walkers factory on the Pimbo industrial estate, close to Nipe Lane.

 

[WAO]

The problem with a station for Skelmersdale is that it is really four towns; the Concourse , Ashurst, Digmoor and old Skem. Even with a central station most users would need a bus ride first. Skemmers actually need to be able to get conveniently to all three surrounding lines as there must be much suppressed demand for travel (that a successful town needs) to the other main destinations as well as Liverpool. This needs road improvements first and then adequate bus links.

The costs of all the rail improvements are prohibitive even for Boris' "levelling up".

It might be cheaper to rebuild the Concourse and town centre alongside the railway and bus everyone in!

WAO

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, looking at the heat map for journeys from Skem, apart from St Helens and Ormskirk the Skelmersdale residents dont really go anywhere.

Wigan seems to be a place of some size that has reasonably regular bus services to and from Skelmersdale.

 

[Djgr]

Wigan seems to be a place of some size that has reasonably regular bus services to and from Skelmersdale.

From an outsider point of view you could argue that the way forward for Skem is incorporation into Wigan. The centre of Skelmersdale is only ten minutes from Orrell by car.

Despite the historic links to Liverpool a lot of water had flowed under the bridge in the past fifty years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From an outsider point of view you could argue that the way forward for Skem is incorporation into Wigan. The centre of Skelmersdale is only ten minutes from Orrell by car.

Despite the historic links to Liverpool a lot of water had flowed under the bridge in the past fifty years.

But isn't this more about effecting change - regeneration - by making it a more desirable place to live? That's what connecting it to Liverpool will do (as well as potentially making it a more attractive place for business).

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

But isn't this more about effecting change - regeneration - by making it a more desirable place to live? That's what connecting it to Liverpool will do (as well as potentially making it a more attractive place for business).

Absolutely right. It would also go a little way to righting the "wrongs" done to Skem by excluding it from the Merseyside Metropolitan County in 1974. Even now you can be sure there are political issues arising from Merseytravel getting involved in a scheme outside its own area.