HS2 Stations north of Birmingham

[Nym]

Now, where to put them? Pure guesswork here...

Manchester 'Central'
It would be very nice to use 'Manchester Central' but the site just isn't long enough, it would be able to fit 270m of platform, would be OK if everything split at Manc South Pawy, but very restrictive for future use.
Manchester Exchange
Long thin site, could fit a station similar in size to that of Curzon Street proposed for Birmingham, and the platform faces would also be in the right directon to be able to provide a link back to the WCML North, next to Victoria for the rest of the NR Network. And if the approach used the 'Altrinham Line' to penitrate the majority of Manchester, avoiding tunneling then a new bit of viaduct would be easy to join it up.
Manchester Piccadilly
Oviously the prefered location, but there is a lack of space, using the site of Mayfeild could work, but it's not long enough in it's current state and would use up spare classic line space that may be needed later, same case with using the eastern side of the station, this is long enough, but not very wide, the length can be gained by extending into the new car park off on the site of the goods station. Also, most of the approaches would need to be tunneled to gain access to this site.

Anywhere else?

'Manchester South Parkway' has a choice of places depending on the alignment it takes into Manchester, this also depends on where in Manchester it will be...
The natural choice is next to Manchester Airport, either on the opersite side of the M56 with moving walkways linking to Terminal Two, or on the current site of 'Jet Parks' where Runger Lane winds round, north of the M56 spur, very close to the current station, and on an alignment that means tunneling under altringham would gain access to the 'altrinham approach' and a linkway back to the WCML, the eastern approach would be slighly more complex, needing tunneling under Heald Green.
Or, further away from the airport, namely to the west so that the station would sit east of the WCML, either way, it would be a junction station, similar to birmingham parkway.

'Leeds Central'

Now I had some hard thinking about this one, there is the cark park and platforms 1 - 6 at Leeds City that could be changed over to HS2 operation, but then to replace pt. 1 - 6 at Leeds City, Leeds Central would proberbly need to be re-opened, there is a site large enough for a few 8 carrage platforms, and a moving walkway could be provided to get passengers between them, this assumes leeds as a terminus station. With a junction station south of Leeds, with a branch to York

York
Since the centre roads were removed from York, they could be converted to GC guage and used directly? or not?

 

[WatcherZero]

Theirs a derelict stretch of land between Victoria and Salford Central that may just be large enough with easy connection to line through Eccles/Patricroft which is pretty straight and could be upgraded speed and capacity wise, looks like its currently being used for water treatment.

I personally favour an underground Piccadilly or Victoria through rather than terminal station though that would cost in the area of £1bn versus £400m for an aboveground terminal one. Their currently investigating lengthening or adding a Platform 0 at Piccadilly for 'classic compatible' 200m HS2 services when its only as far as Brum. Theirs some accusations in latest GMITA notes on the subject that theirs been very little thought given by HS2 to Manchester/Leeds stations location unlike Birminghams.

 

[Geezertronic]

The thing is that most of the planning to date was done under the Labour Government that did not plan to extend HS2 to Manchester and Leeds. So the Birmingham stations were obviously given priority at that stage. I would assume that as the ConLibs get further down the planning stage, more info will be forthcoming. I would especially like to know (for certain) if Birmingham Curzon will be a terminus or through station (the former being the most likely given the limited info I have seen)

 

[YorkshireBear]

will there be an East midlands parkway and sheffield station on the line you reckon?

 

[142094]

Now I had some hard thinking about this one, there is the cark park and platforms 1 - 6 at Leeds City that could be changed over to HS2 operation, but then to replace pt. 1 - 6 at Leeds City, Leeds Central would proberbly need to be re-opened, there is a site large enough for a few 8 carrage platforms, and a moving walkway could be provided to get passengers between them, this assumes leeds as a terminus station. With a junction station south of Leeds, with a branch to York

One of the more recent ideas looked at was to put another platform in slung over the southern bit of the viaduct, which apparently is doable. However you'll still have the massive problem of the two tracks at the eastern end, which is where a lot of the problems in the future will be.

York
Since the centre roads were removed from York, they could be converted to GC guage and used directly? or not?

Certainly no room between platfroms 3/4 and 5, plus the footbridge has its supports there now. Might be feasible to put platforms where the current Parcel Sidings are, or even where the avoiding line is (would make quite a walk from the station entrance though, perhaps an extra long travelator thing would be needed!).

 

[tbtc]

will there be an East midlands parkway and sheffield station on the line you reckon?

Depends on what HS2 is going to be, really.

If its going to aim for 150mph services then it shouldn't be stopping every fifty miles.

Similarly, to utilise top speeds better then it may be better to avoid some city centres (since alignments will mean slower running there). For example, it might be best to go Birmingham - East Midlands (1) - Rotherham (2) - Leeds - Northallerton (3) - Newcastle...

(1) - possibly not at East Midlands Parkway, but relatively near to Derby/ Nottingham/ M1

(2) - maybe neat Meadowhall - the logical way from the East Midlands to Leeds would be via the Rother Valley

(3) - to interchange with ECML for Darlington/ Middlesbrough etc area

For HS2 to work properly it might be best to avoid "old fashioned" routes like York and concentrate connections elsewhere. Crawling into existing stations is going to defeat the purpose.

I wouldn't be surprised if they went for brand-new stations/ interchanges, like Ebbsfleet (instead of trying to tie it into existing routes)

 

[Nym]

Certainly no room between platfroms 3/4 and 5, plus the footbridge has its supports there now.

And they won't spend a few thousands on moving a bridge support for a multi billion pound project?

 

[WatcherZero]

The HS2 route announced during CSR had East Midlands, Leeds, Sheffield but no stops between Brum and Manchester bar Man Airport (subject to private financing). GMITA report said the HS2 thinking was that any station would be built if private industry coughed up for it. Also if the line passed through an urban area with a large enough population they would build a station so long as the route didnt have to be altered to serve it, a Lancashire Parkway (Wigan, Bolton, Preston, Chorley area) was specifically mentioned as being considered.

I believe the 'clean' low stopping HS2 network may quickly be filled with mid sized stations with 1tph services bypassed by normal services.

 

[tbtc]

The HS2 route announced during CSR had East Midlands, Leeds, Sheffield but no stops between Brum and Manchester bar Man Airport (subject to private financing). GMITA report said the HS2 thinking was that any station would be built if private industry coughed up for it. Also if the line passed through an urban area with a large enough population they would build a station so long as the route didnt have to be altered to serve it, a Lancashire Parkway (Wigan, Bolton, Preston, Chorley area) was specifically mentioned as being considered.

I believe the 'clean' low stopping HS2 network may quickly be filled with mid sized stations with 1tph services bypassed by normal services.

It could become self-defeating if everywhere it passes demands a station - if HS2 is going to go past our village then we'll only accept it if there's a station (you can imagine how MPs are going to demand this kind of thing) - so that HS2 ends up taking longer than existing Intercity services :roll:

 

[YesToHS2]

I've just been putting this together for a paper I'm writing based on the HS2 technical appendix

 

[tbtc]

I've just been putting this together for a paper I'm writing based on the HS2 technical appendix

Blackpool in the Lake District?

No Yorkshire line?

Am a bit confused by the pathing in north west England there too

 

[YesToHS2]

Oh yeah, Blackpool's moved didn't you know lol. The paths don't represent actual lines, just how the connect and merge. Still a work in progress.

The tec apend I'm working off only covers Midlands and NW services. The current Euston Birmingham section which I will cover doesn't offer any time saving to Leeds.

 

[tbtc]

Oh yeah, Blackpool's moved didn't you know lol

Cool - It looks like Sellafield is now a tourist destination

 

[YesToHS2]

Moved Blackpool. Would it be confusing to the average person? This is designed to highlight services to none rail people .
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Might make more sense with the service table


Glasgow 1 tph CC
Preston 1 tph CC
Wigan North Western 1 tph CC
Warrington Bank Quay 2 tph CC
Liverpool 2 tph CC
Runcorn 1 tph CC
Manchester Piccadilly 2 tph + 1 tph via Wilmslow CC
Crewe 1 tph CC
Stafford 1 tph CC
Stockport 3 tph CC
Wilmslow 1 tph CC
Birmingham 3 tph DS

 

[LE Greys]

Here are a few ideals.

Leeds Central
Impossible, so I'd expect yet another rebuild of Leeds City instead

Sheffield Victoria
Nice idea, especially since there's not much left of the old one, so almost a clean slate. However, I don't think it's likely.

Trent Junction
It's annoying that East Midlands Parkway is where it is, because alongside there would be a good place for access to both Nottingham and Derby, but no to anything using the north curve (i.e. running Long Eaton-Attenborough). Put the HS2b station in the middle of the Trent triangle, and platforms on all existing faces of the triangle.
However East Midlands Parkway is more likely.

Brackley Central
For an extension of the Javelin to Oxfordshire, trains from Kent would reverse at St Pancras and call at Old Oak and Brackley on their way to Oxford or Banbury (and possibly Stratford-upon-Avon).

While trains would run via Church Fenton to York and the classic ECML at first, I would expect that to be replaced by a northward extension (call it HS2d). The question then would be whether to route it via Ripon direct for Darlington or via York, making connections to the southern half of the ECML easier. Darlington would probably produce an Ashford-style solution, providing connections. I then see it splitting from the ECML at Ferryhill, roughly following the Leamside line and A1(M) to avoid Durham and Chester-le-Street, then rejoining the ECML at Pelaw Grange. From Tyne Yard onwards, I have no idea.

 

[Invincibles]

For Manchester I would be tempted to get the chequebook out and move a small part of Longsight depot and create through lines straight onto the ashburys to victoria line (raised above the level of the exisiting lines and just to the west of the trans pennine sheds) then bring the lines back down into Victoria.

West facing bays at Victoria would remove all through services and make the 4 through platforms at Victoria HS only. By extending them westwards a little into the old exchange an entrance could be made into the spinningfields direction.

It would mess up a lot, but someone put a big arena on the rest of the through line opportunities at Victoria.

It is a bit of a radical suggestion, but with a good facelift Victoria could be the sort of magnificent traditional architecture entrance to a city that St Pancras is, the glass outside certianly suggests trains to europe

 

[Nym]

Only one problem with using victoria though, who's going to jack up the MEN arena?
And who's gonna waste money on a longsight approach to get to Victoria? why not simply approach via Chat Moss, or the Metrolink line to Sale (for the most part there is space for 4track, only currently 2). Then it would be more above ground, if a track needs double decking you do it for the met lines as the're lighter, and then approaching C Manc on a nice wide viaduct toward central, divert to the Wesy of stephenson's liverpool road, and meet up with the Vic - Chat Moss Connection to have a station at exchange? if you're approaching over longsight, the logical station choice is the industrial land around and the deralict station at Mayfeild (although that should be made into part of piccadilly for heavy services with the cross picc viaduct braught into use.

 

[Geezertronic]

Any East Midlands Parkway stop should tie into East Midlands Airport if the alignment allows it in my opinion, and not the way that the current East Midlands Parkway does given it is a few miles away with a bus ride

They should at least do something similar to what is planned for the Birmingham Interchange station

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
I don't think the station will be built at/near East Midlands Parkway or the airport. Frankly there's not a lot there and it's a drag to get to Nottingham or Derby. The location just isn't right for a mass use station.
(And before this upsets anyone - I use East Midlands Parkway myself sometimes!)

If you look at the wider area, the cheapest corridor for rail to run north/south near Nottingham is up the Erewash Valley. There's plenty of space to fit new tracks with minimal land take or rebuilding/re-reouting of exisiting track.

If this does happen the best location for a station would be on the site of Toton yard. There are lots of advantages:
Space to build on abandoned land
Right next to the A52
Easy access into Nottingham & Derby
Only 1 mile from the M1
The Nottingham tram extension is due to terminate about 1.5 miles away and an extension to Toton is simple engineering
Likewise, there are plenty of bus routes than could be adjusted to serve the area.

Cheers,
Jason

 

[The Engineer]

why not simply approach via Chat Moss, or the Metrolink line to Sale (for the most part there is space for 4track, only currently 2). Then it would be more above ground, if a track needs double decking you do it for the met lines as the're lighter, and then approaching C Manc on a nice wide viaduct toward central, divert to the Wesy of stephenson's liverpool road, and meet up with the Vic - Chat Moss Connection to have a station at exchange? if you're approaching over longsight, the logical station choice is the industrial land around and the deralict station at Mayfeild (although that should be made into part of piccadilly for heavy services with the cross picc viaduct braught into use.

If you want a "classic" station for Manchester, why not reclaim and rebuild Manchester Central and do a St. Pancras jobby on it? It faces the right way for a HS2 line running via Warrington, either by new lines, using existing routes (e.g. Chat Moss) or a combination of both.

 

[sprinterguy]

Planning so far for the Birmingham-Leeds arm of HS2 has suggested possible stations serving the East Midlands and South Yorkshire: I've dubbed these large out of town interchanges "Gateway" stations, and my thinking is thus:

East Midlands Gateway: Located roughly equidistant from Derby and Nottingham with good links from the M1 via the A52, with the station on the site of Toton east yard (long out of use). Agreeing with apx068 on this one.

South Yorkshire Gateway: Personally, I'd rather see a compromise station that is intended to serve Leeds, Doncaster, Wakefield and Sheffield, as a station intended to serve primarily Sheffield would be just too short a distance from an East Midlands gateway, and a Gateway station nearer to Leeds would allow some HS2 services to bypass Leeds city centre altogether when running north assuming that the HS2 line is extended north of Leeds eventually, as I can foresee that Leeds is going to be a major point of congestion for anglo-scottish HS2 services. I'm still undecided on an exact location, but I propose something close to the convergence of the M1 and M62 near Middleton. This is more of a long term aspiration if HS2 is extended beyond Leeds, otherwise I think there should just be one intermediate station on the Birmingham-Leeds route serving the East Midlands.

On the Manchester arm, a "Manchester Gateway" station should be adjacent to the north side of Manchester Airport and the M56 for HS2 services continuing north. The HS2 line into Manchester centre would bypass this station, running to the east.

Of course there will need to be stations in the city centres of Leeds and Manchester, but I'll leave it to more imaginative minds than mine to ascertain potential sites in such a constricted area.

I also think that on the initial London-Birmingham trunk route there should be an "Oxfordshire Gateway" station near to where it bisects the Bletchley-Bicester line, near Twyford, which should ideally be returned to passenger use to allow a Milton Keynes-HS2-Oxford service to operate.

 

[Nym]

If you want a "classic" station for Manchester, why not reclaim and rebuild Manchester Central and do a St. Pancras jobby on it? It faces the right way for a HS2 line running via Warrington, either by new lines, using existing routes (e.g. Chat Moss) or a combination of both.

Because Manchester Central's site is nowhere near big enough and you'd have some very curvey platforms, limited in width and expandability, all the way into Castlefeild and having to build a widened viaduct over the south end of Deansgate?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Planning so far for the Birmingham-Leeds arm of HS2 has suggested possible stations serving the East Midlands and South Yorkshire: I've dubbed these large out of town interchanges "Gateway" stations, and my thinking is thus:

On the Manchester arm, a "Manchester Gateway" station should be adjacent to the north side of Manchester Airport and the M56 for HS2 services continuing north. The HS2 line into Manchester centre would bypass this station, running to the east.

Of course there will need to be stations in the city centres of Leeds and Manchester, but I'll leave it to more imaginative minds than mine to ascertain potential sites in such a constricted area.

I also think that on the initial London-Birmingham trunk route there should be an "Oxfordshire Gateway" station near to where it bisects the Bletchley-Bicester line, near Twyford, which should ideally be returned to passenger use to allow a Milton Keynes-HS2-Oxford service to operate.

The only problem with 'bypassing a station is juntions, where as running the main alignment through the middle means less bridges, and cheaper junctions.
Oxfordshire Gatway, yeah, quite possibly have it as a junction for a branch to join up with the GWML route?

The hardest thing with manchester is going to be finding an alignment into the cirty centre, the WCML one is kinda off the cards, 4 track and under capacity already, can't fit any more on the Stockport Viaduct.

 

[sprinterguy]

The thing is that most of the planning to date was done under the Labour Government that did not plan to extend HS2 to Manchester and Leeds. So the Birmingham stations were obviously given priority at that stage. I would assume that as the ConLibs get further down the planning stage, more info will be forthcoming. I would especially like to know (for certain) if Birmingham Curzon will be a terminus or through station (the former being the most likely given the limited info I have seen)

Yeah it would be nice to know for certain: The Birmingham Big City Plan and all the HS2 documents I've seen concerning the Curzon Street station show a terminal arrangement, but nothing's set in stone yet.

The only problem with 'bypassing a station is juntions, where as running the main alignment through the middle means less bridges, and cheaper junctions.
Oxfordshire Gatway, yeah, quite possibly have it as a junction for a branch to join up with the GWML route?

I was suggesting that the line into Manchester centre ran roughly parallel to the Styal-Piccadilly line, with the Airport station at a 90 degree angle to it and linked to it by a triangular junction, much like the planned arrangement for the two Birmingham stations, but with the Airport station at the convergence of the triangle: There will need to be a junction somewhere for access to Manchester city centre if the continuation of the line to Scotland is to take place. An alternative would be for the HS2 route to run up through the Airport station and then turn east north of the M56 to enter Manchester centre from the Chat Moss direction so that the Airport station was on the main HS2 line for trains to both Manchester city centre and Scotland (Junction futher north), which would probably be more realistic initially.

I agree that it would be a good idea to allow for a branch to the GWML from somewhere near a possible “Oxfordshire Gateway” station, which could either interface into the classic network around Oxford and use the existing route onto the GWML via Didcot, or could use a section of new High Speed line to join the GWML to the west of Swindon and run all GWML Intercity services heading to Bristol, Cardiff and Swansea via that route. My “Oxfordshire Gateway” idea is pretty much concurrent with LE Greys idea of a Brackley Central, just a few miles further south.

 

[142094]

And they won't spend a few thousands on moving a bridge support for a multi billion pound project?

But there wouldn't be enough room for a platform there anyway.

 

[GingerSte]

As far as the Leeds station goes...

There is a disused alignment on a viaduct from near Elland Road stadium almost to the city station (I think - haven't gone past in a while). My solution would be to use this, and increase the height of the viaduct as it heads towards the station - something like the cross city line heading into Birmingham New Street.

The lines would then cross over the Western throat to Leeds City Station, diverging into the individual platform tracks. The station itself would then be situated in what is currently the staff car park behind Platform 1, albeit at high level. The existing multi-storey may restrict the length of this, but I would propose moving this to a vacant plot of land on the other side of the River Aire anyway, as it would then give an unrestricted view of an elegant, destination station. This would have room for up to 6 platforms, concourse, (the usual shops) and also passport control for when HS2 links up to HS1. Leeds to Amsterdam anyone?

This plan is not perfect. From here it would be hard to go North East to York without a) going through City House, b) tearing up half of Leeds or c) going round the city centre. None of which seem like particularly tasty options so I would move the existing London KX-Leeds trains over to the new platforms, where they would be next to their high speed terminating counterparts. I would then use the existing Platforms 8 (and possibly) 9 for through HS services. You would not need to provide passport control because I don't see the government allowing inernational trains to stop at multiple British stations before going through the tunnel (for security reasons).

 

[Bevan Price]

Now, where to put them? Pure guesswork here...


Manchester Piccadilly
Oviously the prefered location, but there is a lack of space, using the site of Mayfeild could work, but it's not long enough in it's current state and would use up spare classic line space that may be needed later, same case with using the eastern side of the station, this is long enough, but not very wide, the length can be gained by extending into the new car park off on the site of the goods station. Also, most of the approaches would need to be tunneled to gain access to this site.

Any HS2 would almost certainly lead to a reduction in the number of existing WCML and XC services using Piccadilly, so the existing layout & paths might be able to suffice for HS2. ?

Bevan

 

[WatcherZero]

They would quickly be refilled with new inter-regional or commuter services that cant run today due to lack of paths.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Dear Lord:roll:

HS2 ltd has said that the Manchester arm will join the WCML south of Stockport. Those who didn't like the Northern service reduction when the 3rd VT path was created are going to love it when 4/5 intercity trains an hour use the route.

It could become self-defeating if everywhere it passes demands a station - if HS2 is going to go past our village then we'll only accept it if there's a station (you can imagine how MPs are going to demand this kind of thing) - so that HS2 ends up taking longer than existing Intercity services

If it doesn't stop anywhere then it'll just be carting around fresh air. A lot of VT's passengers are doing short journeys such as Coventry - New Street, Stoke - Manchester. Take out the London journeys from these CITIES aswell, then you have empty trains.

The HS2 route announced during CSR had East Midlands, Leeds, Sheffield

There is no place called 'East Midlands', it is a region and ridiculous to suggest that a station could serve a whole region. No doubt putting a HS route to Exeter would qualify as serving the south-west as if that would do wonders for Cornwall's economy.

East Midlands Gateway: Located roughly equidistant from Derby and Nottingham with good links from the M1 via the A52, with the station on the site of Toton east yard (long out of use). Agreeing with apx068 on this one.

South Yorkshire Gateway: Personally, I'd rather see a compromise station that is intended to serve Leeds, Doncaster, Wakefield and Sheffield, as a station intended to serve primarily Sheffield would be just too short a distance from an East Midlands gateway, and a Gateway station nearer to Leeds would allow some HS2 services to bypass Leeds city centre altogether when running north assuming that the HS2 line is extended north of Leeds eventually, as I can foresee that Leeds is going to be a major point of congestion for anglo-scottish HS2 services. I'm still undecided on an exact location, but I propose something close to the convergence of the M1 and M62 near Middleton. This is more of a long term aspiration if HS2 is extended beyond Leeds, otherwise I think there should just be one intermediate station on the Birmingham-Leeds route serving the East Midlands.

HS2 is supposed to close the north/south gap, I don't see that happening if someone wishing to go to Nottingham gets told by the station staff that this train will take you to a field in Stapleford where you can make your own forward by whatever means you may find. Anyone living in Nottingham will find by the time they get to the station they could have been thundering through Kettering with an EMT service unless they travel to the station by car. So much for encouraging for people away from their cars.

 

[WatcherZero]

HS2 actually said the Manchester HS line would rejoin the WCML 'shortly before or shortly after Warrington' not Stockport unless your refering to the interim after Brum is finished but before Manchester is. GMPTE are seeking clarification from HS2 whether at the Brum stage there would be route clearance so a 'Classic compatible' service could run via Stoke providing additional choice of destinations.

 

[LE Greys]

Dear Lord:roll:

HS2 ltd has said that the Manchester arm will join the WCML south of Stockport. Those who didn't like the Northern service reduction when the 3rd VT path was created are going to love it when 4/5 intercity trains an hour use the route.



If it doesn't stop anywhere then it'll just be carting around fresh air. A lot of VT's passengers are doing short journeys such as Coventry - New Street, Stoke - Manchester. Take out the London journeys from these CITIES aswell, then you have empty trains.



There is no place called 'East Midlands', it is a region and ridiculous to suggest that a station could serve a whole region. No doubt putting a HS route to Exeter would qualify as serving the south-west as if that would do wonders for Cornwall's economy.



HS2 is supposed to close the north/south gap, I don't see that happening if someone wishing to go to Nottingham gets told by the station staff that this train will take you to a field in Stapleford where you can make your own forward by whatever means you may find. Anyone living in Nottingham will find by the time they get to the station they could have been thundering through Kettering with an EMT service unless they travel to the station by car. So much for encouraging for people away from their cars.

Those are actually very good points. Stopping trains in ploughed fields and making everybody cart their luggage over to some other train and go on, then quite possibly change again would be a real pain in the backside. One of rail's great advantages is that you can travel city-centre to city-centre. Why throw that away?

Really, the ideal place for an East Midlands HS2 station is Nottingham Victoria, since it's plumb in the centre of Nottingham, easy to access and would offer the possibilities of a link to the ECML at Grantham. Trouble is, some idiot decided to close it and build a massive great shopping centre on top. Actually, that's not too much of a problem, you can always rebuild it, and nobody lives there after all (apart from the odd tramp perhaps). It's the multi-storey car park that presents the problem, because where else would people park their cars? I suppose it would also annoy the people of Derby, who would miss out altogether.

That's why I suggested Sheffield Victoria, which presents the option of reconnecting to the former GCR lines in the area, and even of a Woodhead link. More importantly, it provides the city-centre location. Why make stations that are harder to access than airports?